The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
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10:15
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[28]
Wrth gwrs, fis diwethaf, fe wnaeth yr
Ysgrifennydd Cabinet lansio rhaglen newydd er mwyn sicrhau bod y
rheini a oedd yn gweithio yn CAMHS yn gallu dod i mewn i ysgolion
er mwyn helpu ysgolion i roi gwasanaeth i bobl ifanc sydd ei
eisiau, a hefyd i hyfforddi athrawon er mwyn eu bod nhw yn gallu
ystyried problemau cyn eu bod yn mynd yn ormodol i bobl ifanc. Mae
enghreifftiau yn fanna o beth sydd wedi digwydd ynglŷn â
beth roeddem ni wedi moyn gwneud, a hefyd yr arian sydd wedi cael
ei roi mewn i’r rhaglenni hyn.
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Of course, just last month, the Cabinet
Secretary launched a new programme in order to ensure that those
working in CAMHS could actually go into schools to assist schools
to provide services to those young people who need the services,
and also to train teachers so that they can identify problems
before they become too burdensome for young people. There are
examples there of what has happened in terms of what we wanted to
do, and the funding that’s been provided for those
programmes.
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[29]
Dai Lloyd: Rwy’n ymwybodol o’r amserlen dynn,
Cadeirydd. Fe wnaf ei atal yn y fan yna.
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Dai
Lloyd: I’m aware of the tight timetable, Chair, so I'll
leave it there.
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[30]
Ann Jones: Thank you very much. David, you’ve got a
section that you wanted to talk about. You’ve got a question
on this.
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[31]
David J. Rowlands: It’s just coming back actually to
your answer to some earlier questions with regard to the monitoring
of public bodies and their implementation of the well-being of
future generations Act. It seems that your answer was that
they’re all under a legal obligation to comply with the Act.
Are you saying that there are no monitoring mechanisms in place
with regard to that?
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[32]
The First Minister: Bear in mind, of course, we
wouldn’t monitor local authorities in that way. The local
authorities have legal duties that they’re obliged to
observe. It will be a matter for the courts to monitor what they do
if they’re in breach of those legal duties. Of course, more
generally, we do review legislation and its operation as a matter
of course, but those public bodies are answerable to the courts if
they fail to meet their obligations under the law.
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[33]
David J. Rowlands: Yes, but obviously, with regard to
courts, that would be a long way down the line, wouldn’t it,
really? Things could have gone wrong and they could not have been
compliant with this for quite some time. So, you’re saying
that the Welsh Government doesn’t have mechanisms in order to
monitor these.
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[34]
The First Minister: If we had concerns about any public
body, we would raise those concerns with that body. If we felt that
they were in danger of breaching the law, then we would tell them
and we would work with them to make sure those breaches
didn’t occur. But, ultimately, any breaches of legal duties
are monitored by the courts. It’s not to say that we could
leave them to it, clearly not, but the sanctions are applied by the
courts. But in terms of avoiding those sanctions and getting things
right, that is something that we would do, working with them.
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[35]
Ann Jones: Okay. More on the general issues there, before we
move into more specifics on progress in implementing the UN
Convention on the Rights of the Child, and then moving into subject
areas. You can follow up on the question by Dai Lloyd.
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[36]
David Rees: Thank you. To follow up on the question on
mental health support, and I appreciate the work that’s being
done by the Welsh Government and the investment that’s been
put in, but, one of the concerns I’ve raised before is the
ability to actually refer young people sometimes, and the
challenges that face families and GPs in trying to refer people for
support. Is the Welsh Government now looking at the position of
widening the ability to refer young people for help? Because very
often it’s sometimes only schools, and then there’s a
problem because children can sometimes be seen to behave well in
schools but actually have difficulties at home. There is a
different approach required. Are you looking at the ability to
widen the referral opportunities for people, so that a GP can refer
rather than just perhaps a school counsellor?
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[37]
The First Minister: GPs can refer to CAMHS.
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[38]
David Rees: Well, they’re not doing it very well.
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[39]
The First Minister: They’re fully able to do it. I
know examples where they have done that. So, there’s no
restriction on GPs referring young people to CAMHS where they feel
it’s appropriate.
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[40]
David Rees: I hope they can tell CAMHS that then, because
CAMHS seem to be not accepting that all the time.
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[41]
The First Minister: I’m not aware of any individual
cases. If that is the case, I’d like to know about it so I
can investigate further.
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[42]
Ann Jones: Okay, thanks. Are we happy to move into more of
the subject areas now on the UN monitoring? Lynne, do you want to
start it off as Chair of the children’s committee?
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[43]
Lynne Neagle: Yes. The UNCRC made some concluding observations to
Welsh Government on which Welsh Government is meant to respond to
the UN committee. Can you tell us whether there’s a published
action plan, which has been called for by both the UN committee and
the children’s commissioner?
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[44]
The First Minister:
That is something that we are looking at.
I’m not sure—. You mentioned the children’s
commissioner; the other call was made by who?
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[45]
Lynne Neagle: By the UN committee that monitors the implementation
of the UNCRC.
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[46]
The First Minister:
The UN’s own committee.
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[47]
Lynne Neagle: Yes.
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[48]
The First Minister:
That’s a matter for the UK to
respond to, as the state. I don’t think the UK has
responded to that at the moment.
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[49]
Lynne Neagle: But they also made recommendations to Welsh
Government to publish an action plan for children.
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[50]
The First Minister: Yes, this is something that is still
under consideration at the moment. We obviously take this
seriously, as we took seriously the views of the Wales Observatory
on Human Rights of Children and Young People when they looked at
the children’s rights impact assessment process to make sure
that we can have a more streamlined and clearer process. But, the
response to the UN would be a matter for the UK.
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[51]
Lynne Neagle: Right, okay. In terms of my committee’s
responsibilities, obviously we very much welcome the consultation
on the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, and to
give equal protection to children and young people. Are you able to
update us on where things are with that and when you expect
legislation to make that a reality to be introduced?
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[52]
The First Minister: Yes, I can. We are still committed to
moving this legislation forward. A campaign was launched on 2
October, which aims at asking parents, guardians and carers from
across Wales to give us their views on parenting and discipline in
order to inform the development of the legislative proposals. We
will be formally consulting on legislative proposals early in the
new year with a view to taking legislation forward.
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[53]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, thank you. A couple of Members have
already raised concerns about child and adolescent mental health
services, but the programme that covers CAMHS, Together for
Children and Young People, is about much more than access to acute
services; it’s also about early intervention and universal
support for children and young people to try and stop them ending
up in the CAMHS system in the first place. One of the concerns has
been that there maybe isn’t enough partnership across
Government, between health and education and the Cabinet Secretary
for communities, to have everybody pulling together to deliver that
programme. What assurances can you give that you, as First
Minister, are taking a lead in ensuring that everybody in your
Government is working together to make that programme deliver for
children?
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[54]
The First Minister: It’s absolutely right to say that
we need to ensure that young people aren’t identified in the
system when they go to CAMHS, because they are in a position of
presenting with acute symptoms at that point. So, the question then
is: how do we prevent people getting to a point where they need
CAMHS support?
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[55]
Two ways of doing that: the first is long embedded in our
comprehensive schools—that is, there’s a counsellor in
every school. So, young people can go and talk to a counsellor.
It’s not always easy—I appreciate that—because
young people can be reluctant to go and see somebody in case
somebody else finds out. It’s not going to happen, but that
confidentiality is absolutely crucial, and I understand that. But
beyond that, it’s hugely important that teachers are able to
identify what are low-level problems that may develop into
something more serious.
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[56]
So, referring back to what I said earlier on, we have launched an
initiative. The Cabinet Secretary launched an initiative on 25
September to embed CAMHS practitioners in schools. There are pilot
projects in schools across Wales that run until the summer of 2020.
The objective of that initiative is to help schools—to aid
them—to identify early any problems that young people have,
to identify the support that they might need, and also to upskill
teachers, so that teachers are able to deal with low-level
emotional issues such as exam stress, which might then develop into
something else. It’s quite right to say that being able to
deal at an early stage with what might become a serious problem is
crucial, and this is one example of what we’re doing to deal
with that.
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[57]
Lynne Neagle: Early intervention is absolutely critical, and
I very much welcome the extra money. What role do you see, though,
for the curriculum in ensuring that these issues around developing
universal resilience are actually mainstreamed into the new
curriculum when it comes in, so that all young people feel able to
talk about these issues and get help when they need it?
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[58]
The First Minister: Well, the four purposes of the new
curriculum are to: create ambitious, capable learners; enterprising
creative contributors to society; healthy, confident individuals;
and ethical, informed citizens. The third limb of that, of
course—healthy, confident individuals—is hugely
important. The new curriculum will seek to support young people in
that way. What does that mean? Building up mental and emotional
well-being, developing confidence, resilience and empathy. The
education system is important in terms of getting qualifications,
but, as we know, it’s also important in terms of developing
the individual and helping people to deal with life and what life
can throw at you as you get older.
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[59]
Just one example of what that means in practice: at the moment,
work is being taken forward to develop a design for the six areas
of learning and experience, one of which is health and well-being.
That will then look to develop a framework to put in place the
ambition that we have. It’s one thing to have an ambition,
it’s another thing to actually ensure that young people are
able to be part of it. So, that work is ongoing, as to how we
translate the ambition into something in practice when the new
curriculum starts.
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[60]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, I’ve got one other question, but I
don’t know if Dai wants—it’s not on CAMHS.
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[61]
Ann Jones: Do you want to come in on CAMHS then? Then
I’ll come back to you.
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[62]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Cadeirydd, a diolch hefyd i Lynne. Ar
gefn beth roedd Lynne yn ei ddweud, bod angen cydlynu rhwng iechyd
ac addysg, ac ar ben beth roedd David Rees wedi ei holi, y
gwirionedd ydy, er y dylai fod yna bwyslais ar driniaeth gynnar a
dal unrhyw fath o broblem yn gynnar yn lle ei bod hi’n
datblygu i fod yn rhywbeth difrifol, mae hefyd angen pwysleisio bod
cael problemau iechyd meddwl yn gyffredin iawn ac, yn sylfaenol, yn
normal i blant a phobl ifanc hefyd. Mae’n rhaid i’n
pobl ifanc ni sylweddoli hynny—o reidrwydd, nid oes dim byd
mawr o’i le, achos mae’r teimladau hyn yn gallu bod yn
hollol normal.
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Dai
Lloyd: Thank you, Chair, and thank you also to Lynne.
Following on from what Lynne was saying about the need for
co-ordination between health and education, and following on from
what David Rees asked, the truth is that, even though there should
be an emphasis on early treatment and identifying any issues early
before they escalate, there’s also a need to emphasise that
having mental health issues is a very common thing and is normal
for children and young people as well. Our young people have to
realise that—that there’s nothing majorly wrong,
because these issues can be very common.
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[63]
Ond, o iddo fod yn broblem iddyn nhw
a’u teuluoedd, rydym ni eisiau’r pwyslais yma ar
driniaeth gynnar, ond beth sy’n digwydd ydy, fel roedd David
wedi dweud, fod pobl yn mynd i weld eu meddyg teulu, ond nid
yw’r seiciatryddion yn derbyn atgyfeiriad oddi wrth meddygon
teulu heb iddyn nhw fynd yn ôl i’r ysgolion yn gyntaf a
derbyn y cyngor yna. Dyna beth sy’n digwydd, achos nid
yw’r capasiti yna i gael y driniaeth gynnar yna ar yr ochr
iechyd. Mae’n rhaid arallgyfeirio ein pobl ifanc yn ôl
i’r sector addysg.
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But, in it being an issue for their families
and for them, we want that early treatment. But as David said, what
happens is that people go to their GPs, but the psychiatrists
don’t accept a referral from the GP without them going back
to the school first and receiving that advice. That happens because
the capacity isn’t there for that early treatment on the
health side. You have to direct our young people back to the
education sector.
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[64]
Mae hynny’n broblem fawr i ni
fel meddygon teulu, achos nid oes gennym ni’r grym i
arallgyfeirio i sector y tu allan i iechyd. Felly, dyna le mae
meddygon teulu yn cael y syniad yma nad oes yna wasanaeth CAMHS,
achos os nad yw’r broblem yn ddifrifol iawn, nid oes
gwasanaeth, felly.
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That’s a huge problem for us as GPs,
because we don’t have any powers to refer to a sector outwith
the health sector. So, that’s where GPs get this idea that
there are no CAMHS services, because if the problem isn’t
very serious, there’s no service available.
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[65]
Dyna sut mae’r cwestiynau hyn
wedi dod. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n golygu bod angen cael
cydlynu manwl iawn rhwng iechyd ac addysg, felly, er bod iechyd yn
dod o dan adran llywodraeth leol, ac, wrth gwrs, nid oes gennym
ni’r grym i ddylanwadu, fel meddygon teulu, ar y system yna.
Rydym ni’n hollol ddibynnol ar beth sy’n digwydd yn yr
ysgolion, heb y grym i ddylanwadu mewn unrhyw ffordd. Wedyn, rydym
ni’n teimlo ein bod ni’n colli’r grym neu’r
pŵer i ddylanwadu ar iechyd y disgybl yna o’n blaenau
ni.
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That’s why these questions have arisen.
But that then means that we have to have very detailed
co-ordination between education and health, even though health
comes under the local government department, because we don’t
have the power to influence, as GPs, on that system. We’re
entirely dependent on what happens in the school, without the power
to influence in any way what happens. So, we then feel disempowered
to influence the health of that pupil before us.
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[66]
Felly, mae pwynt Lynne bod angen mwy
o bwyslais ar gydlynu yn hollol gywir, achos dyna beth sydd ei
angen. Mae’n rhaid inni gael y driniaeth gynnar yna, achos y
pwysau sydd arnom ni fel meddygon ydy bod yn rhaid inni aros
i’r plant yma fod yn ddifrifol wael er mwyn inni allu eu
harallgyfeirio nhw yn syth i’r sector eilradd iechyd. Ond,
nid ydw i eisiau aros i rywun ddod yn ddifrifol wael;
buasai’n well gen i drin y broblem yn ei chamau cyntaf. Nid
ydw i’n gwybod a oes gennych chi ryw sylw i’w wneud ar
hynny.
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So, Lynne’s point that we need more
emphasis on co-ordination is entirely correct, because that’s
what we need. We need this early treatment, because the pressure on
us as GPs is that we have to wait for these children to become
seriously ill before we can refer them directly to the secondary
health sector. I don’t want to wait for someone to become
seriously ill; I want to treat the issue very early on. I
don’t know whether you have any comments to make on that.
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[67]
Y Prif Weinidog:
A gaf i ofyn, petasai’r
unigolyn yn mynd yn ôl i’r ysgol a bod yr ysgol yn
argymell i’r unigolyn y dylai fynd yn ôl i’r
meddyg teulu, a bod y meddyg teulu yn gwybod bod yr ysgol wedi
argymell hynny, a yw’n bosibl wedyn i’r meddyg teulu
roi’r unigolyn ymlaen i CAMHS?
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The First
Minister: May I ask, if that individual were to go back
to school and the school recommended that the individual should go
back to the GP, and the GP was aware that that was the
recommendation made by the school, would it then be possible for
the GP to refer the individual to CAMHS?
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[68]
Dai Lloyd: Rydym ni’n ysgrifennu llythyrau wedyn ar
sail hynny. Ond hefyd, mae’r atgyfeiriad yn dod yn ôl,
yn bownsio’n ôl, yn syth—yn ardal Abertawe, beth
bynnag. Rydw i’n deall bod yna bwysau enfawr ar wasanaethau
CAMHS, ond mae o yn broblem ac, yn amlwg, o brofiad David, nid jest
yn ardal Abertawe. Nid ydw i eisiau gadael i bobl fynd yn ddifrifol
wael cyn iddyn nhw gael eu gweld gan seiciatrydd, os oes
rhaid.
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Dai
Lloyd: We write letters on that basis. But then the
referral bounces back straight away—in the Swansea area,
anyway. I understand that there are huge pressures on CAMHS
services, but it is a problem, and it’s clearly an issue in
David Rees’s area as well—it’s not just Swansea.
I don’t want to wait for people to become seriously ill
before they’re seen by a psychiatrist, if that’s
needed.
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[69]
Y Prif Weinidog:
Na, rwy’n deall hynny. Un
o’r pethau y byddwn i’n gobeithio sydd yn digwydd yw
bod y rheini sydd yn cynghori yn yr ysgolion yn ddigon parod i
sicrhau bod yr unigolyn yn mynd yn ôl i’r meddyg teulu
gyda rhyw fath o lythyr sydd yn cefnogi’r nod i’r
person yna i symud ymlaen i CAMHS. Byddwn i’n gobeithio bod
hynny’n digwydd yn weddol gyflym.
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The First
Minister: No, I fully understand that. One of the
things I would hope happens is that those who provide advice in
schools would be willing to ensure that those individuals do go
back to their GPs with some sort of letter supporting that
individual’s referral to CAMHS. I’d hope that would
happen relatively swiftly.
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[70]
Ond, i ddod yn ôl, wrth gwrs,
i’r project peilot sydd yna ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n
hollbwysig hefyd fod yna ffordd i sicrhau bod problemau’n
cael eu delio â nhw pan maen nhw’n dechrau. Mae’n
hollol wir i ddweud, wrth gwrs, nad oes neb moyn eistedd yn
ôl a dweud, ‘Wel, mae’n rhaid i rywun fynd yn
waeth cyn eu bod nhw’n cael unrhyw fath o
driniaeth.’
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But, to return to the pilot project
that’s running at the moment. It’s also crucially
important that there is a means of ensuring that these problems are
dealt with at the very early stages. It’s entirely right to
say that nobody wants to sit back and say, ‘Well, the
individual has to become progressively worse before they get any
treatment.’
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[71]
So, gyda’r cynghori sy’n
cymryd lle yn yr ysgolion, byddwn i’n erfyn ar y bobl yna, os
ydyn nhw’n gweld problem sydd angen unrhyw fath o ymyrraeth
feddygol, i wneud hynny’n weddol gyflym. Nid oes rheswm pam
na ddylai hynny ddigwydd, wrth gwrs. Yn ail, hoffwn i weld beth yw
canlyniadau’r project peilot ynglŷn â pha mor
effeithiol y mae wedi bod i ddelio â phroblemau cyn eu bod
nhw’n mynd yn rhy wael.
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So, with the consultations happening in
schools, I would expect those people, if they identify a problem
that needs any medical intervention, to act relatively swiftly.
There’s no reason why that shouldn’t be the case.
Secondly, I want to see what the impact of the pilot project is in
terms of dealing with problems before they escalate.
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[72]
Ann Jones: Lynne, your
final question, then. Well, not your final question, but the final
question in this set.
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[73]
Lynne Neagle: Just to
return to the curriculum, some of the young people that I was
speaking to earlier were telling me that they didn’t feel
that enough information was given to them on children’s
rights and the particular emphasis that we’ve got on that in
Wales. Have you got any plans, with the new curriculum, to make
children’s rights education mandatory?
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10:30
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[74]
The First Minister: Yes. We are working with the
children’s commissioner to see how that can be taken forward.
It’s hugely important that young people are aware
of—it’s not the most attractive way of putting
it—the legal framework surrounding children’s rights
and what they are entitled to. So, that work is ongoing with the
children’s commissioner.
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[75]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you.
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[76]
Ann Jones: Okay. Dai, because you’ve already mentioned
questions on it, do you want to take anything from the subject area
of your committee, health and social care and sport? And then
I’ll go around.
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[77]
Dai Lloyd: Ie, ac fe wnaf i hefyd gwmpasu hynny gydag
agenda’r pwyllgor newid hinsawdd, achos rydw i ar y pwyllgor
hwnnw hefyd. Yn ymwneud efo iechyd ac iechyd y cyhoedd, yn nhermau
symud ymlaen nawr o iechyd meddwl i iechyd penodol pobl
ifanc—iechyd corfforol—a allwch chi ehangu ar y
cynlluniau i leihau lefelau llygredd awyr, yn enwedig mewn
ardaloedd gerllaw ysgolion ac ardaloedd preswyl pobl
ifanc?
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Dai Lloyd: Yes, and I’ll align that
with the agenda of the climate change committee, because I’m
on that committee as well. This question is with regard to health
and public health, in terms of moving on from mental health now to
health issues facing young people in particular—physical
health—could you expand on the plans to decrease air
pollution levels, especially in areas surrounding schools and
residential areas in which young people live?
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[78]
Mae yna waith yn
mynd ymlaen, rydw i’n gwybod. Hefyd, mae yna angen codi
ymwybyddiaeth ynglŷn â pheryglon llygredd awyr. Wedyn,
jest ynglŷn â’r holl gwestiwn yma o hawliau,
a’r hawl i iechyd cyhoedd glân, beth sy’n digwydd
ym maes llygredd awyr?
|
There is work
ongoing, I know. Also, we need to raise awareness about the dangers
of air pollution. So, just with regard to this question of rights,
and the right to clean public health, what’s happening with
regard to air pollution?
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[79]
Y Prif Weinidog:
Mae canllawiau
wedi cael eu rhoi i awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn ag ansawdd awyr yn
eu hardaloedd nhw. Cafodd hynny ei gyhoeddi gan yr Ysgrifennydd
Cabinet dros yr amgylchedd ym mis Mehefin. Nod y canllawiau hynny yw sicrhau
bod rheoli ansawdd awyr yn cael ei wneud y tu mewn i Ddeddf
cenedlaethau’r dyfodol. Dyma enghraifft lle mae hynny yn cael
dylanwad ar beth mae awdurdodau lleol yn gorfod gwneud.
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The First Minister: Guidance has been provided to local authorities on
air quality in their areas. That was published by the Cabinet
Secretary for the environment in June. The aim of that
guidance is to ensure that air quality management is done in line
with the well-being of future generations Act. That is another
example of where that is having an impact on what local authorities
are required to do.
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[80]
O dan y
canllawiau, mae awdurdodau lleol yn gorfod ystyried yn arbennig y
risg hirdymor i fabis ac i blant wrth ystyried faint o lygredd y
maen nhw’n ei weld, os yw hynny yn eu tai nhw, yn yr ysgol,
yn y feithrinfa, neu wrth gwrs wrth deithio rhwng y ddau.
Mae’r awdurdodau lleol hefyd yn cael eu hybu i weithio gydag
ysgolion er mwyn ystyried ffyrdd i leihau impact y school
run yn y bore—er mwyn, wrth gwrs, fod hynny’n cael
effaith bositif ar ansawdd awyr.
|
Under the guidance, local authorities do have
to give consideration to the long-term risk to babies and children,
as they consider the levels of air pollution in their areas,
whether that’s in their homes, in their schools, nurseries,
or in travelling to and from those locations. Local authorities are
also encouraged to work with schools in order to consider ways and
means of reducing the impact of the school run, so that that can
have a positive impact on air quality.
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[81]
Ann
Jones: John Griffiths.
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[82]
John Griffiths:
Yes. In terms of those strategies on
child health, Chair, one thing I think is undoubtedly very
important is that we make sure that children are physically active
and, indeed, that they develop those habits of being physically
active early in life, particularly through schools, because nearly
all young people are in school, so it’s a prime opportunity.
I just wonder, First Minister, whether you’re content, in
terms of the new curriculum, that physical education will have the
prominence that’s required to make sure that children do
develop those good habits of exercise that will last them
throughout their lives and ensure that they have better health
throughout their lives.
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[83]
The First Minister:
Absolutely. It’s hugely important
that the new curriculum encourages physical activity. We know that
habits acquired and kept when people are young will improve their
health as they get older, so it will be fundamentally important as
part of the new curriculum.
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[84]
Ann Jones: David, you’ve got one on economy,
infrastructure and skills.
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[85]
David J. Rowlands:
Yes, with regard to the impact of
business on children’s rights, the UN committee calls for the
implementation of regulations to ensure that the business sector,
including in the context of public procurement, complies with the
rights of the child. Are you happy that the regulations now in
place under the Welsh Government are robust enough to make sure
that they do comply?
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[86]
The First Minister:
Yes, I am. I think that’s fair to
say. One of the issues that we look at, for example, as well as
procurement—. Business regulation isn’t devolved, by
and large. Procurement is under our control. One of the things we
look at, of course, is procurement going back through the supply
chain, not just the contract that was made with Government, in
order to ensure, for example, that there are more apprenticeships
available. We know how important apprenticeships are for young
people, and we want to use our procurement power in order to
encourage businesses to create apprenticeships through the
contracts they have with Government.
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[87]
David J. Rowlands: Returning to my earlier theme of
questioning, are you happy that there are mechanisms in place to
monitor their compliance?
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[88]
The First Minister: Yes. That’s done through the
procurement process. We know that there’s a duty on us to
ensure that, when we conclude a contract with a contractor, we have
to look at what’s being done in terms of the sub-contracts to
make sure that nothing is being done to the sub-contracting process
that would cut across what we believe as a Government. So, we know
we have a responsibility to look beyond the final contract, through
the supply chain, in order to ensure that young people have those
opportunities.
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[89]
David J. Rowlands: Thank you.
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|
[90]
Ann Jones: Huw, on constitutional and legislative affairs:
do you want to take that section, and then I think I’ll move
into—?
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|
[91]
Huw Irranca-Davies: Thank you, Chair, yes. First Minister,
just to return to Lynne’s theme, but to take it into the area
of legislation and constitutional affairs, the UN committee made
several specific recommendations for Wales—not for the UK
responsibility, but for Wales. If I can take you through the three
that interest our committee particularly, one is that the UN
committee recommended the Welsh Government should accelerate
bringing domestic legislation in line with the UNCRC to ensure that
principles and provisions are directly applicable under domestic
law. Obviously, I won’t need to tell you—you’re
very aware—of the importance of this, not least now as we
move through negotiations on EU withdrawal as well. It probably
heightens that.
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[92]
The second recommendation was the establishment of an
inter-ministerial body such as a Cabinet sub-committee to
co-ordinate all activities related to children’s policy. The
third is for the Children’s Commissioner for Wales to be
appointed by and accountable directly to the National Assembly for
Wales. Just to remind you, this was something that my predecessor
committee, under the chairmanship of David Melding, brought forward
a report on—that, actually, all commissioners should be
accountable to, and appointed by, the Assembly of Wales rather than
Welsh Government. So, I’d like to test your thinking on those
three specific recommendations for Wales from the UN committee.
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[93]
The First Minister: Well, in terms of the appointment of the
children’s commissioner, I don’t think it makes a
difference to the independence of the commissioner; that’s
one thing I have to say. I think the commissioner is independent
anyway. The fact that somebody appoints a commissioner—. In
Scotland, judges are appointed by the First Minister. Nobody
suggests that judges are in some way constrained because they are
appointed by the First Minister, because, once they’re
appointed, they have that independence and objectivity that’s
needed.
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[94]
Huw Irranca-Davies: Do you think it makes a difference in
terms of democratic accountability that they’re not
accountable directly to the Assembly?
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[95]
The First Minister: Well, they are accountable to the
Assembly and its committees. I’ve never regarded the
commissioners as being accountable to me for the recommendations
that they make or the decisions that they take. They’re
wholly independent in that regard. Once I have taken a decision to
appoint a commissioner, unless something is seriously wrong with
the way that the office is operating, I don’t see myself as
having any role at all, or any business, actually, in interfering
or influencing with any commissioner’s decision. I
don’t think it’s possible to pick out one commissioner
more than the others. It’s either all or none, and it’s
a debate, I’m sure, that will be taken forward over the next
few years, but I don’t think it makes a difference in terms
of the independence of the commissioner.
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[96]
Huw Irranca-Davies: You don’t have an in-principle
objection to the recommendation from the UN committee, then.
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|
[97]
The First Minister: I’m willing to see how it would
work, and look at how it would work. In principle—no, not an
in-principle objection. But I think there are practical issues that
would need to be taken forward. I do have to say I don’t
think it would make any difference in terms of the independence of
the role.
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[98]
In terms of a Cabinet sub-committee, it’s already a small
Cabinet. The Welsh Cabinet is the size of Cabinet sub-committees in
Whitehall. So, I’m not attracted to the idea of
sub-committees. I’ve seen them operate before in Cabinet.
There is a tendency, if you set up a sub-committee, for Ministers
who are not on the sub-committee to tend to leave all that work to
the sub-committee. That’s not what I want to see. From my
perspective, children’s and young person’s rights are a
matter for the entire Cabinet, and I wouldn’t want—you
know, we talk about breaking down silos—to create a silo to
put that matter into, another silo.
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[99]
The other issue was—
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|
[100] Huw
Irranca-Davies: To do with accelerating domestic legislation
within Wales, because we have many of these areas that fall within
devolved competence already—so, accelerating domestic
legislation in line with the UNCRC to ensure those provisions are
directly applicable under domestic law as opposed to applied or
read across.
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|
[101] The
First Minister: This is complicated, in the sense that it would
need to be stand-alone legislation that would be retrospective,
potentially, as well. It is a hugely complicated area, not least
because the Human Rights Act incorporated most of the European
Convention on Human Rights into the law of the different
jurisdictions of the UK, but there’s established
jurisprudence in human rights—courts have looked at human
rights legislation for many, many years. Nobody has looked at the
UNCRC. There’s no established corpus of law and
interpretation that deals with it. So, I don’t underestimate
the amount of work that would be required to introduce legislation
of that kind. I think it would have to be done via stand-alone
legislation. Bluntly, the legislative programme is very, very full,
especially with Brexit coming. That said, it is hugely important
that we incorporate as much of the convention rights as we can into
legislation as legislation develops. At some point in the future,
it might be that a Bill along those lines is required.
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|
[102] Ann
Jones: Okay. Thank you. I know you’re itching to talk
about external affairs, including Brexit, but that’s David
Rees’s committee. I will bring David in, and, if you look at
me nicely, you may get a supplementary. David.
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[103] David
Rees: Thank you, Chair; I’m sure he’ll look at you
nicely. First Minister, clearly the decision by the UK public to
leave the EU last June, in 2016, is going to have a major impact
upon young people in particular. In the ‘Securing
Wales’ Future’ White Paper with Plaid Cymru, you
actually indicated that you would want to listen to the views of
children and young people. In the nine months since the publication
of that document, what’s the Welsh Government done to listen
to the views of young people and children?
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[104] The
First Minister: Well, we have Young Wales, of course, which is
the national participation forum for young people, which allows
them to engage with Government and on decisions that affect them.
We do fund Children in Wales to deliver Young Wales. The programme
looks to reach out to young people in as many ways as possible,
including, of course, in these days, social media, particularly, to
reach out to young people who don’t want to come forward and
have the confidence to do it, but whose views are nevertheless
equally as important. Coming back to the statutory guidance that
we’ve issued in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales)
Act 2015, that is also important because local authorities will
need to adopt the national participation standards so that, at a
local level, young people can have that voice as well. Also, of
course, we have the youth parliament that’s being set up by
the Assembly itself, which will enable young people to have a voice
in that way. It’s not enough on its own, because a youth
parliament will inevitably attract the more confident and the more
articulate of young people. So, there has to be another way of
making sure that people’s voices are heard as well, beyond a
youth parliament.
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[105] One of the
things that the Treasury has done—the Welsh
Treasury—is, if I remember rightly, to have two events asking
young people about the budget as well. So, we are proactive in
going out and looking to get the views of young people, whether
it’s through stand-alone events, whether it’s through
Young Wales, and, of course, in time, via the Assembly through the
youth parliament.
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|
[106] David
Rees: Okay. So, there are starts of formal mechanisms in place,
it sounds like, but, of course, we’ve often commented
ourselves on the delays of the UK Government, and the time is going
very quickly—and as Michel Barnier keeps reminding us, the
clock is ticking—to March 2019. For us to actually ensure
that young people’s views and positions are being reflected,
there’s not a lot of time left to actually influence the
negotiations at this point. So, are you stepping up a gear to
engage with young people and children more?
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|
[107] The
First Minister: Well, I think I’ve outlined what
we’re doing. I think the reality is that it’s difficult
to know what kind of influence any of us can have in terms of the
way things are changing as part of the Brexit negotiations. But, if
we are serious about the well-being of future generations, then
Brexit is perhaps the most important issue of all in the future.
So, we have the mechanisms in place in order for young people to
give their views. One of the things that I think is important is
that nothing is done to reduce the rights of young people, or
indeed people of all ages, in the future. The charter of
fundamental rights, obviously, is an issue that will need to be
looked at very carefully, whether the UK will continue to adopt
that and whether there is the opportunity for Wales to adopt
elements, at least, of that charter in the future. Nothing will
stop us incorporating European law into devolved areas if we want
to, once we leave the EU. It’ll be a choice for the Welsh
Government and for the National Assembly. When it comes to human
rights, I don’t think it’s well understood in the
public that the European Convention on Human Rights has nothing to
do with the EU. Yes, you need to be a signatory to be part of the
EU, but they’re different bodies run by different
organisations. I had people on the doorstep saying to me,
‘Well, I don’t like this European convention on human
rights; that’s why I’m voting for Brexit,’ and
I’d say, ‘It’s nothing to do with it.
That’s not the issue on the table.’
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10:45
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[108] The UK
Government have said that they don’t want to repeal the Human
Rights Act 1998 while the Brexit process is ongoing. My argument
would be that there’s no need to repeal it at all, because
I’ve had conversations in the past with working groups that
have sought to look at a British bill of rights and, in fact, what
they’re coming up with is something identical, in reality,
just taking the word ‘European’ out, because they
don’t like it.
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[109] So, I
think we have to be very mindful of the fact that the UK was
absolutely crucial in developing the European convention on human
rights in the first place. The UK drove it. For the UK to leave it
would make the UK look—it would lose a great deal of respect
in Europe and the world, and it’s hugely important then that
that Human Rights Act stays and, also, of course, that we remain
signatories of the convention.
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[110] David
Rees: There’s clearly a difference between the convention
and the charter, and it’s the EU charter we would probably
lose as a consequence of leaving the EU. The withdrawal
Bill—we’ve focused very much on the attempt to take
powers to Westminster when they should be coming, in our view, to
Cardiff, or Edinburgh and Belfast. Has the Welsh Government looked
carefully at the withdrawal Bill to see whether, actually, it would
stop it doing anything to implement its own position on the EU
charter in Wales?
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[111] The
First Minister: No, our interpretation is that there is nothing
to stop us doing what we want in devolved areas, except through
clause 11 and in other areas we are not able to alter areas that
are seen as areas that were originally European. It doesn’t
mean we can’t add those areas. What the current Bill says
is—we obviously don’t accept this position—that
we would not be able to do anything legally that was previously the
responsibility of the European Union. I won’t interpret that
as meaning that we couldn’t actually add to that law. So, for
example, when we leave the EU, if we’re in a position where a
particular directive is implemented, and it’s in an area that
is wholly devolved, I see no reason why we would not be able to
incorporate that directive into our own law if we sought to do
so.
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[112] I think
one of the things that’s important to convey to people is
that it’s still possible to incorporate directives.
It’s a question then of those directives being voluntary,
rather than compulsory. But it may well be, in some areas, that we
would want to make sure that we change our own law in Wales in
accordance with European law to make sure that it’s easier
for our businesses to export to the single market. There are all
manner of possibilities that might exist in the future.
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[113] David
Rees: Okay. The UK Government, when it set up the referendum,
decided not to listen to the voices of young people by not letting
16- and 17-year-olds vote on the situation. Have you had
discussions with the UK Government relating to these issues to
ensure that they are fully aware and they take these into
consideration in the negotiations?
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[114] The
First Minister: I don’t think they are aware, nor do they
take these issues into consideration. As soon as it was agreed that
16- and 17-year-olds could vote in the Scottish referendum, the
issue, to my mind, was resolved. If it’s okay for one
referendum, it’s okay for all referendums, and, for that
matter, it’s okay for any election. You can’t pick and
choose the referendums that you allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote
in. I think it was the wrong decision not to allow 16 and
17-year-olds to vote in the Brexit referendum, given the fact
they’d been allowed to do it in 2014, in the Scottish
referendum. As a Government, of course, we’re committed to
reducing the voting age to 16, as far as future Assembly elections
are concerned, and I do think that there is no reason now why the
voting age should not be lowered to 16. If it happened in one
referendum in Scotland, there’s no reason why it
shouldn’t happen in all elections.
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[115] David
Rees: Based upon this issue, which is clearly the departure
from the EU and the implications it has, particularly the
implications it has for young people, do you have confidence that
the UK Government is considering these points when it puts its
papers forward in its discussions for negotiation with the EU so
that it will be in a position to actually ensure it addresses many
of those points?
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[116] The
First Minister: I’ve seen no evidence of that.
|
|
[117] David
Rees: Okay.
|
|
[118] Ann
Jones: I had several people on a couple of issues back, so
I’ve got John Griffiths and I’ve got Lynne, who want to
come in, so you’ll have to just wind it back to where you
were. Sorry about this.
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[119] John
Griffiths: Talking to young people here today, First Minister,
before our formal meeting started, as well as strongly supporting
votes for 16-year-olds, there was a deal of concern in terms of
withdrawal from the European Union on the effect it might have in
limiting opportunities that young people have to study, to travel,
to be part of exchanges for young people that benefit from European
Union membership. Is there anything that Welsh Government might be
able to do ensure that as many of those benefits as possible, and
perhaps further benefits, are available to young people in
Wales—benefits of that nature after EU withdrawal?
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[120]
The First Minister:
Yes, we’ve got concerns about
schemes like Erasmus, like Horizon—schemes that enable
exchanges of people and views to take place across Europe. Nobody
said in the referendum campaign that they wanted to restrict
students’ ability to study elsewhere. Nobody said in the
referendum campaign that they wanted to stop people going on
exchange visits. Clearly, those weren’t the issues, and
there’s no reason why this shouldn’t continue in the
future.
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[121]
It’s possible for the UK to remain
part of many of those programmes without being part of the EU, and
I think it’s hugely important that the approach to Brexit is
not one of, ‘We must pull out of anything with the name
“European” in it, because it’s got the name
“European” in it’, because in that case we
won’t be in the Euros in 2020 either. It has to be pragmatic.
People voted to leave the EU. That we know, and that’s what
the referendum result was. What we don’t know is what
people’s settled view is on how that should be done, and we
still seem to be very divided on it. From my perspective, what
I’ve always argued is that we should have the most sensible
Brexit possible, and that means ensuring that our young people have
the same opportunities as before. Surely we wouldn’t want a
situation where we were restricting the outlook and opportunities
available to our young people.
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[122]
Lynne Neagle: I know when I’ve raised this with you before,
you recognised that a lot of young people feel very angry that a
decision was taken about their future that they didn’t have
any part in. I don’t know whether it was you or Carl Sargeant
who made the commitment to children in Wales that there would be a
formal advisory committee of young people on Brexit, but you
didn’t make any reference to that in your earlier answer.
Will there be an advisory committee on Brexit made up of young
people?
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|
[123]
The First Minister:
I see no reason why we shouldn’t do
that. We already have the existing mechanisms, but this is an
important issue. I will consider how we can take that forward.
You’re absolutely right to say that many young people are
very concerned about what Brexit might mean for them, and it does
make sense for us to be able to have a mechanism where their views
can be heard directly by Government.
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[124]
Ann Jones: Nick, you’ve got public accounts and finance.
Is there anything you want to raise on those?
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[125]
Nick Ramsay: Yes, briefly: the UN committee’s recommended
that the Government intensify its efforts to give more support to
parents and guardians. How is the Welsh Government looking to
provide that support? Perhaps I could tie it in with the second
question I was going to ask as well. The Public Accounts Committee
in the Assembly is embarking on a major piece of work looking at
the experiences of care-experienced children across Wales, and
following through the issues that affect them from the moment they
enter care to after-issues when they leave care, and providing
support. So, clearly you will respond as a Government to the Public
Accounts Committee’s inquiry once we’ve done that, but
if you could tell us how you’re both looking overall at
meeting the UN committee’s request for more assistance for
guardianship of children, both in the private sense and also in the
corporate parenting sense.
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[126]
The First Minister:
Well, first of all, we have the childcare
offer that we’re moving forward with, which will enable
parents to look for work, enable them to raise their income levels,
and that helps, of course, in terms of pulling people out of
poverty. The childcare offer is a hugely important part of
that.
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[127]
One of the areas that I’ve been
particularly interested in is the area of looked-after children,
corporate parenting. We can’t pretend that looked-after
children are doing, have done, well in the system over many years.
We know there’s an enormous gap in terms of academic
achievement between looked-after children and the general
population. We do have, of course, a ministerial advisory group
driven—chaired, but driven as well—by David Melding,
and that’s been hugely important in bringing forward ideas as
to how we provide the right level of support for looked-after
children not just in the educational sense, but also in terms of
stability, as too many of them move from one place to the next and
back and forth, and that doesn’t create a situation of
stability for them.
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[128]
Now, £8 million has been allocated
to accelerate the delivery of that group’s programme. What
does it mean? Expanding each local authority’s
services—‘educare services’, as they’re
called—so that families can access support early enough to
avoid crises; rolling out the national fostering framework for
Wales as well, and developing an all-Wales approach to
adoption support. There are two issues here. First of all,
strengthening the ability of local authorities to intervene early,
so that families have the support they need when they need it and
not when they’re in crisis, and quite often in the situation
where the crisis is insoluble.
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[129] Secondly,
in terms of children who’ve been adopted, for many years a
child would be adopted and the parents just had to get on with it.
We know that many, many adoptions break down when children become
teenagers. Adverse childhood experiences are part of that. We know
that there is a suggestion now that adopted children have those
adverse experiences even before they’re aware of them, when
they’re very, very young—influences of which
they’re not aware at the time, which influence them then as
teenagers. So, we need to provide support for adoptive parents in
those teenage years. Youngsters find that those are difficult
years—I can just about remember them, but those are the years
when young people need most support. Parents often need support, as
adoptive parents, to deal with issues that they wouldn’t be
familiar with in their own family backgrounds. That, to me, is the
way of providing the greatest level of support for those who need
it the most.
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[130]
Nick Ramsay: Do you think we need a more—? We often talk
about co-production—it’s one of those buzz words in the
Assembly. Do you think that we need more of a co-productive
approach with young people as well, when it comes to care
experience? In the Public Accounts Committee, as part of framing
our inquiry, we’ve spoken to young people about what issues
are really affecting them in the care experience sector. So, do you
think there’s scope to actually include them much more? So,
rather than just being looked after, they are actually telling us
how they want to be cared for, both now and in the future when they
leave care.
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[131]
The First Minister:
You couldn’t argue against that.
That’s hugely important. The system has tended to operate on
the basis of—it’s very paternalistic; I suppose, in a
sense, it would be—what is deemed to be best for the child or
young person. Well, a child or young person’s view is not
irrelevant, but tends to be disregarded until they reach a certain
age. When I was a practitioner in the family courts, the family
courts took the view that they didn’t really take into
account a child’s views on where that child would want to
live until they were at least eight years old, and probably older
than that. Inevitably, a child would be placed with the parent who
was deemed to offer them the greatest stability, and the
child’s view was not seen as important at that time. The
older they got, the more that view was taken into
account.
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[132]
Why eight years old? There’s no
particular reason for it. I don’t see why we shouldn’t
be able to involve young people at a younger age, with the right
level of support, to explain to them what options might be
available and to help them to not take the decision
themselves—that’s too much to ask of a child that
young—but for them to understand why decisions are taken and
for them to have a view on a decision before it’s taken. But,
clearly, the system has tended to be geared towards providing for a
child or young person, regardless of what that child or young
person actually thinks themselves. That’s got to
change.
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|
[133]
Ann Jones: David, on this point.
|
|
[134]
David J. Rowlands:
First Minister, as a former justice of
the peace, I knew that all the adult courts were open to the
public. We understand that family courts are held in private and in
secret. Do you have some concerns about that?
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|
[135]
The First Minister:
No, I think it’s appropriate. The
only family proceedings that are held in public, if I remember
rightly, is a contested divorce, of which I only ever saw one as
they are exceptionally rare. I do think it’s hugely important
that children have their identities protected, and for that matter
families as well, whether they are—. Let’s take, for
example, if adoption hearings were in public. Quite often, the
birth parents don’t agree to a child being adopted; quite
often, they don’t turn up in court, but they don’t give
their formal agreement; they would be able to identify the
prospective adoptive parents. I can’t think of a better way
to put people off adoption than for that to happen. I have faith in
the system that it’s robust and fair. It doesn’t have
to be public. I think there are great dangers there.
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[136]
David J. Rowlands:
Well, of course, you could have
restrictions within those courts, but journalists could be allowed
into those courts to make sure that they were being conducted in a
fair and appropriate manner. They could have restrictions on their
reporting. I’ve done that myself as a JP, restricted what
journalists do and the names of people in the court. It’s a
great concern to me that these are still held in
private.
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[137]
The First Minister:
The higher courts are there to ensure
fairness. If there’s a procedural defect or a decision that
is irrational, then of course the higher courts are able to step in
and rectify that decision.
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|
11:00
|
|
[138]
My worry is—. I accept what you say
about reporting restrictions—they are reserved—but I
have seen instances where aggrieved birth parents have spent a lot
of time trying to find the adoptive parents in a way that is not
conciliatory. If they knew who the adoptive parents were, a lot of
people would be put off adoption. They wouldn’t want to have
what they would see as a potential threat to them as a result of
adopting.
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[139] Ann
Jones: Equality, local government and communities, John. I got
the title right this time.
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|
[140] John
Griffiths: Thanks, Chair. First Minister, if we are to achieve
the more equal and fairer Wales that we would, I think, all like to
see, child poverty is an absolutely crucial issue. The UN committee
urges the use of:
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|
[141]
‘clear accountability mechanisms for the eradication of child
poverty, including by re-establishing concrete targets with a set
timeframe and measurable indicators’
|
|
[142] and
continuation of regular monitoring and reporting on the reduction
of child poverty. How do you react to that call in terms of Welsh
Government strategy and performance management and evaluation?
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[143] The
First Minister: Well, I’d argue that we’re doing it
already. The national indicators underpin the well-being of future
generations Act. They help us to measure our progress in a
transparent way towards achieving the seven well-being goals. There
are indicators there for relative poverty, material deprivation,
levels of employment and healthy lifestyles, to give some examples.
The first annual Well-being of Wales report was published last
month. It provided data for the 46 national indicators and an
analysis of progress against each of the seven well-being
goals.
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[144] This
sounds very much as if I’m retreating into jargon here. What
does this mean? We can measure what we’re doing from one year
to the next. That’s hugely important. It’s one thing to
have an ambition, but unless you can measure in an open fashion how
you’re doing, then you can never be effective, and
that’s what the indicators are designed to do. A number of
those indicators reflect the indicators in the child poverty
strategy as well. For example, for those not in education,
employment or training, children and young people achieving at
level 2 is one of the indicators. So, we have the child poverty
strategy with its indicators; they chime with the national
indicators as part of the well-being of future generations Act, and
that, then, provides us and the public with the ability to measure
our progress.
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[145] John
Griffiths: Do you think there’s enough clarity? We know,
I think, that UK Government responsibilities and policies around
taxation and the benefits system, for example, are very important
in terms of tackling child poverty. We understand not all the
levers are within Welsh Government control. Do you think
there’s enough clarity in Welsh Government strategy and
enough accountability that clearly identifies what Welsh Government
is able to do and how Welsh Government is performing against that
responsibility?
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[146] The
First Minister: It’s difficult because there are areas
where we don’t have all the levers. We can set ourselves
targets, but it can be very difficult to have a target when
you’re not in control of the means to achieve that target.
So, what we look to do is to have indicators that measure the
progress that’s being made. In some areas, like child
poverty, the levers will not all be with the Welsh Government. A
change in the benefits system, a change to child tax credits,
affects very significantly the level of child poverty, but I do
think it’s important that we are seen as having measurable
indicators against which we and the public can measure
progress.
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[147] John
Griffiths: Okay. If I could go on to a related issue, which is
homelessness, First Minister, the UN committee also want to
see:
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[148]
‘necessary measures to reduce homelessness and to
progressively guarantee all children stable access to adequate
housing’.
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[149] I think we
all understand the importance of that and how you need stable and
adequate housing as a base to progress from and to go out from if
you’re really going to have the life chances and quality of
life that most people, thankfully, take for granted. So, are you
content, then, that Welsh Government strategy and policy around
housing is strong enough to ensure that opportunity for all our
children in Wales?
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[150] The
First Minister: Yes, and the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 has made
sure that many thousands of people have not been made homeless. I
think we should take pride in the fact that we have legislation
that doesn’t seek to deal with homelessness after it’s
happened but seeks to prevent it in the first place. I think
I’m right in saying that over 80 per cent of cases of people
who are at threat of homelessness had that homelessness prevented
as a result of that legislation. There will be some, of course, who
still become homeless. That's why we’ve given £2.6
million towards the homelessness support delivered via
organisations who are on the ground, and which is why Supporting
People is there for the next two years. I think it’s hugely
important just to make it clear that Supporting People will sit as
a ring-fenced grant for the first year of the next financial year.
Beyond that, it will still be there, but as part of a wider grant;
it will not go into the RSG. That’s not what the intention
is. It will still be available to support people, but it’ll
be part of a wider and more flexible programme.
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[151]
John Griffiths:
Given that it is part of that wider
grant, then, First Minister, are we able to say, are you able to
say, with confidence that the same amount of money will be
available for Supporting People, which is so important to the
tackling homelessness strategy and supporting people in
housing—that same resource will be available even though
it’s part of that wider grant?
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[152] The
First Minister:
Yes, it will. The amount of money
isn’t changing. That will remain; it’s part of the
budget agreement that we have. What we’re looking to do is
see how we can create a grant scheme that is even more effective,
but the money is there and we know how important Supporting People
has been as a programme, and it will be a hugely important part of
what’s developed in the second year. What we will not do is
take the money, the £10 million for Supporting People, and
put it into the RSG. We don’t believe that will give us
sufficient confidence that what is currently being done across
Wales will be done consistently across all the local
authorities.
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[153] Ann
Jones: Shall we move on to the programme for government as
relevant to children and young people? There are a number
of—. I think every Member will probably have some questions
around this, but—. Huw, do you want to start?
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[154] Huw
Irranca-Davies: Yes, indeed.
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[155] Ann
Jones: You’ve touched on the votes at 16, but if you want
to carry on—.
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[156] Huw
Irranca-Davies: Thank you, Chair. It’s one specific
question. We’ve mentioned the UK—. Sorry, the youth
parliament, not the UK Parliament, which I used to have involvement
with, but the youth parliament in Wales and its developing thought.
Specifically for Welsh Government, for you as First Minister, and
for your Cabinet Ministers, what will your involvement, engagement,
interaction be with the youth parliament when it’s up and
running?
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[157] The
First Minister: Well, I think Ministers will be able to speak
and take questions at the youth parliament. How frequently that
will be is obviously a matter for examination further on down the
line, but I would see myself as going there once a year in order to
listen and in order to be able to take questions. I did it with
Funky Dragon—not a name I was ever comfortable with, and
I’m glad we now have a youth parliament that is what it says
on the tin—but, yes, it’s important that youth
parliament isn’t just able to deliberate itself, but also is
able to have access to Ministers from time to time as well.
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[158] Huw
Irranca-Davies: Are you expecting that the youth parliament
will—I hope—say some quite different things from a
different collection of people? And if it says things that are
difficult and awkward and challenging for Government, should we
expect that you and your Cabinet respond to those difficult
challenges?
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[159] The
First Minister: I think so. Why have a youth parliament if it
just agrees with what the Assembly says? Young people would soon
get disillusioned if what they were suggesting wasn’t
answered. We’re not going to agree on everything, obviously,
and there’ll be some issues that won’t be
possible—. Some things won’t be possible to deliver,
but questions deserve an answer, and I think it’s important
the youth parliament is able to do that.
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[160] Huw
Irranca-Davies: One final short question, Chair, and it’s
to do with the fact that devolution doesn’t stop at Cardiff
in terms of our Assembly, and, in a sense, neither should it with
the youth parliament either. We have, for example, in our area in
Bridgend, a very strong youth council, but that’s not the
case across all parts of Wales. So, what role should we be seeing,
going forward, for the youth councils—strengthening those
youth councils across Wales and for them feeding into the youth
parliament as well?
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[161] The
First Minister: Well, the statutory guidance that I referred to
at the start of this session requires local authorities to support,
and I quote,
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[162] ‘a
County Youth Forum/Council as a representative body of young people
to act as a channel for young people’s views across their
local authority and represent those views to local and national
decision-making bodies.’
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[163] So, the
statutory guidance makes it clear that there should be a youth
forum or council in every council area in Wales.
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[164] Huw
Irranca-Davies: Okay.
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[165] Ann
Jones: Lynne.
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[166]
Lynne Neagle: Can you provide an update, First Minister, on the
2015 programme for children and young people, and specifically how
it relates to ‘Taking Wales Forward’ and the new
strategy, ‘Prosperity for All’?
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[167]
The First Minister:
Yes. Karen, can I ask you just to come in
on this one?
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[168]
Ms Cornish: Yes. I think what we can say is that, obviously,
children and young people have a really high priority in
‘Taking Wales Forward’ and ‘Prosperity for
All’, the national strategy. We are not intending to have a
separate action plan, and elements from the 2015 programme that you
would expect to see within ‘Prosperity for All’ and
‘Taking Wales Forward’ are certainly well reflected,
whether that’s early intervention and prevention, parenting,
those sorts of things, they are all there.
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[169]
Lynne Neagle: So—
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[170]
The First Minister:
Sorry, early years is one of the five
priorities, of course, in ‘Prosperity for
All’.
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[171]
Lynne Neagle: So, what role did due regard and the CRIA process
play, both in developing the programme for government and also
‘Prosperity for All’? Was there a CRIA for
those?
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[172]
Ms Cornish: There was an integrated assessment, as you would
expect, which includes looking at children’s issues and
children’s rights.
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[173]
Ann Jones: Okay.
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[174]
Lynne Neagle: Yes.
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[175]
Ann Jones: Dai, mentrau iaith.
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[176]
Dai Lloyd: Reit, symud ymlaen i raglen y Llywodraeth
ynglŷn â’r bwriad i gael miliwn o siaradwyr
Cymraeg erbyn y flwyddyn 2050, yn naturiol, mae yna gryn drafodaeth
wedi bod ym mhob man. Yn benodol, o sgyrsiau rydym ni wedi eu cael
eisoes y bore yma—rwyf i wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw
eisoes—efo disgyblion Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw, yn bendant, yma
yng Ngwent, mae yna her ynglŷn â darpariaeth mentrau
iaith. Wrth gwrs, rydw i’n ymwybodol bod canolfannau mentrau
iaith yn llewyrchus mewn sawl lle, ond maen nhw’n dibynnu yn
rhannol ar arian cyhoeddus a hefyd yn rhannol ar frwdfrydedd lleol,
buaswn i’n ei ddweud. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae darpariaeth menter
iaith yn allweddol bwysig i gael adloniant a gweithgaredd pobl
ifainc tu fas i’r ysgol. Oni bai am hynny, mae’r iaith
Gymraeg yn cael ei chysylltu yn unig â’r ysgol. Roedd
yn arfer bod yr ysgol a’r capel, ond, y dyddiau hyn, yr ysgol
yn unig yw. Felly, rydym ni’n trio ehangu hynny er mwyn, wrth
gwrs, cynyddu’r niferoedd. So, buaswn i’n licio rhyw
fath o syniad ar hynny.
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Dai Lloyd: Right, so, moving on to the
programme for government with regard to the intention to have a
million Welsh speakers by the year 2050, naturally, there’s
been a great deal of debate about this in all parts. Specifically,
from the discussions that we’ve had already this
morning—I’ve referred to them already—with pupils
from Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw, here in Gwent, there is certainly a
challenge with regard to the provision of mentrau iaith.
I’m aware that mentrau iaith centres are flourishing
in several areas, but that depends partly on public funding and
partly, of course, on the enthusiasm locally, I would say. But, of
course, the provision of mentrau iaith is essential for
entertainment and activities for young people outside of school.
Otherwise, the Welsh language is wholly connected with the school.
It used to be the school and chapel, but, nowadays, it is just the
school. So, we want to try to expand that in order to increase the
number of Welsh speakers. So, I’d like some idea about
that.
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[177]
Hefyd, mae problem ymarferol sydd yn
digwydd y dyddiau yma o bobl yn derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ond,
wrth gwrs, nid yw’r ddarpariaeth ysgrifenedig, dywedwch pan
ydych chi’n astudio addysg grefyddol i lefel A, yna, hyd yn
oed mewn ysgol cyfrwng Gymraeg, yn y Gymraeg. Mae’r
ddarpariaeth ddim ond yn Saesneg. Nawr, rydw i’n gweld bod
honno’n sefyllfa hollol annerbyniol, mae’n rhaid i mi
ddweud.
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And there’s a practical issue that
happens these days with people receiving Welsh-medium education,
but, of course, the written provision, say when you’re
studying religious education, for example, at A-level, isn’t
available, even in a Welsh-medium school, in Welsh. The provision
is only in English. I see that as a totally unacceptable situation,
I must say.
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[178]
Hefyd, pan fo’r cwricwlwm yn
newid mewn rhai meysydd eraill, megis y gwyddorau, megis ffiseg, er
enghraifft, weithiau nid yw’r ddarpariaeth yna yn y Gymraeg
yn cyrraedd mewn pryd. Felly, mae yna angen wedyn—hyd yn oed
pan ŷch chi’n dysgu ffiseg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg,
mae’r ddarpariaeth ysgrifenedig a’r gefnogaeth yn
digwydd yn Saesneg yn unig, sydd hefyd yn gallu drysu pobl. Nawr,
mae gyda ni ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg am reswm, hynny yw, darparu
addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn naturiol,
rydych chi’n gallu siarad Saesneg, ond hefyd mae’r
Gymraeg a’r Saesneg yn gyfartal y dyddiau hyn yn gyfreithiol.
Felly, buaswn i’n licio’ch sylwadau chi ar yr anallu,
weithiau, i gael addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg mewn rhai meysydd penodol.
Diolch yn fawr.
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Also, when the curriculum changes in some
other areas, such as the sciences, such as physics, sometimes the
provision in the Welsh language doesn’t arrive in time. So,
even when you’re studying physics through the medium of
Welsh, the written provision and the support are in English only,
which can also confuse people. Now, we have Welsh-medium schools
for a reason, that is, to provide education through the medium of
Welsh, but also, of course, you can speak English, but English and
Welsh have parity legally these days. So, I’d like your
opinion on the inability, sometimes, to have Welsh-medium education
in some specific areas. Thank you very much.
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[179]
Y Prif Weinidog:
Mae hwn yn dechrau gyda’r
blynyddoedd cynnar, yn fy marn i, ac rydym ni’n
gwybod—wel, mae’n dechrau cyn hynny, yn dechrau
gyda’r cylchoedd meithrin. Rŷm ni’n gwybod bod yna
fwy o alw am gylchoedd meithrin ar draws Cymru ac rŷm ni wedi
ymrwymo i gynyddu’r nifer o gylchoedd o 150 dros y ddegawd
nesaf. Mae yna her, er enghraifft, ynglŷn â’r
cynnig gofal plant, i sicrhau bod yna ddigon o ddarpariaeth ar
gael, yn enwedig yn y de-ddwyrain. Rŷm ni’n awyddus am
hynny, ac rŷm ni’n gwybod, wrth gwrs, ei fod e’n
un peth i ddweud ein bod ni’n mynd i gael mwy o gylchoedd
meithrin, ond mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod y gweithlu yna
hefyd er mwyn eu bod nhw’n gallu cael eu staffio. Nawr, mae
hwnnw’n waith sydd yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd.
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The First Minister: This starts in the
early years, in my view. It starts even before that, with the
cylchoedd meithrin. We know that there is more demand for
cylchoedd meithrin across Wales, and we are committed to
increasing the number by 150 over the next decade. There is a
challenge, for example, in terms of the childcare offer in ensuring
that there is sufficient provision available, particularly in the
south-east. We are eager to see that is put in place, and we know
it’s one thing to say that we want to have more cylchoedd
meithrin, but we also have to ensure that the workforce is in
place so that they can be properly staffed. That is work that is
ongoing.
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[180]
Ynglŷn â’r ysgolion
uwchradd, mae gyda ni gynlluniau, wrth gwrs, sydd yn rhoi help i
bobl sydd eisiau dysgu rhai pynciau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae
gwyddoniaeth wastad wedi bod yn her, rydym ni’n gwybod hynny,
ac rydym ni’n moyn sicrhau bod yna fwy o athrawon ffiseg,
cemeg a bioleg ar gael, er mwyn bod yna ddarpariaeth yn yr ysgolion
Cymraeg i wneud hynny.
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Now, in terms of the secondary schools, we do
have plans in place that do assist people who want to learn certain
subjects through the medium of Welsh. Science has always been a
challenge, we are aware of that, and we do want to ensure that
there are more teachers of physics, chemistry and biology available
in order to ensure that there is provision within the Welsh-medium
schools to provide that education.
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11:15
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[181]
Mae ysgolion yn rhedeg eu hunain trwy
reoli ysgolion yn lleol, ac mae dyletswyddau ar yr awdurdod lleol,
ond rydym ni’n gwybod bod yna ddyletswydd arnom ni, er mwyn
cynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n gallu dysgu pwnc yn Gymraeg ac sydd
gyda’r hyder i wneud hynny. Achos, fel mae Dai yn gwybod, mae
sut cymaint o bobl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg, ond a fyddai’n
dweud, ‘Wel, na, smo fy Nghymraeg i’n ddigon da’
i ddysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae gloywi Cymraeg, felly, yn
rhywbeth hollbwysig, a bod yna gyrsiau ar gael i helpu pobl i wneud
hynny.
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Now, schools run themselves through local
management of schools, and there are duties upon local authorities
too, but we also know that there is a duty on us as a Government to
ensure that there is an increase in the number of pupils who can
learn subjects through the medium of Welsh and have the confidence
to do that, because we know that there are so many Welsh speakers
who say, ‘Well, my Welsh isn’t good enough’ to
study through the medium of Welsh. So, improving Welsh-language
skills is crucially important, and we must ensure that there are
courses available to help people to do that.
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[182]
Yr her fwyaf yn fy marn i yw: ym mha
ffordd ydym ni’n sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn enwedig yn
defnyddio’r Gymraeg tu fas i’r ysgol, yn enwedig mewn
ardaloedd lle nad yw’r Gymraeg yn iaith gymunedol? Mae
fe’n her mewn ardaloedd lle mae Cymraeg yn iaith gymunedol
erbyn hyn, ac rwyf wedi gweld hynny fy hunan. Ym mha ffordd ydym
ni’n helpu i ddatrys hynny? Mae’r mentrau iaith yn
hollbwysig. Rŷm ni wedi, wrth gwrs, rhoi arian i sawl adeilad
ar draws Cymru, adeiladau diwylliannol, lle mae’r Gymraeg yn
cael ei defnyddio mewn ffordd hollol naturiol. Mae un ym
Mhontardawe, er enghraifft, un yng Nghaerdydd, un ym Mangor, un yn
Llanelli, a sawl un arall ar draws Cymru. Mae fe’n bwysig bod
pobl yn gallu mynd i rywle lle nad yw’n cael ei ystyried fel
rhywbeth od i siarad Cymraeg, er mwyn iddyn nhw allu ymarfer eu
Cymraeg nhw. Os nad ydyn nhw’n ymarfer, felly, maen
nhw’n colli’r iaith.
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The greatest challenge, in my view, is: how do
we ensure that young people particularly use the Welsh language
outwith the school walls, particularly in those areas where the
Welsh language isn’t the community language? It is a
challenge, even in those areas where Welsh is the community
language. I’ve seen that with my own eyes. Now, how do we
resolve that problem? The mentrau iaith are crucially
important. We have provided funding for a number of premises across
Wales, cultural centres where the Welsh language is the natural
language of communication. There’s one in Pontardawe, one in
Cardiff, one in Bangor, one in Llanelli, and a number of others
across Wales too. It is important that people can go somewhere
where it’s not seen as odd to speak Welsh, so that they can
practice their Welsh, because, if they don’t use the
language, they will lose it.
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[183]
Mae’r Urdd yn allweddol hefyd,
ac rwy’n gwybod bod gan yr Urdd Bwrdd Syr IfanC, sef bwrdd o
bobl ifanc sy’n cynghori cyngor yr Urdd ynglŷn â
beth ddylai gael ei gynnig i bobl ifanc yn y Gymraeg. Mae’n
un peth i bobl sydd ddim mor ifanc â hynny i ddweud,
‘Wel, dyna beth sydd ar gael’, ond mae’n beth
arall, wrth gwrs, i bobl ifanc ddweud yn gymwys beth maen nhw
eisiau ei weld.
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The Urdd is also crucially important, and I
know that the Urdd has Bwrdd Syr IfanC, which is a board of young
people that advises the Urdd council as to what should be provided
for young people through the medium of Welsh. It’s one thing
for people who aren’t so young to say, ‘Well,
that’s what’s available’, but it’s an
entirely different thing for young people to say exactly what they
want to be made available.
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[184]
Allwn ni ddim cyrraedd y targed o
filiwn heb fwy o ddarpariaeth Cymraeg mewn ysgolion, a heb
golli’r bobl hynny unwaith maen nhw’n gadael yr ysgol.
Mae yna bwyslais, yn iawn, wedi bod am flynyddoedd ar addysg
Cymraeg, ond dim digon o bwyslais, efallai, blynyddoedd yn ôl
ynglŷn â sut i gadw’r bobl hynny, a hefyd, wrth
gwrs, eu bod nhw’n meddwl eu bod nhw’n gallu
defnyddio’r Gymraeg yn y pen draw.
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Now, if we’re to reach the target of a
million, we can’t do that without more Welsh-medium provision
in schools. We also need to ensure that we don’t lose those
people once they leave school. Quite rightly, there’s been an
emphasis on Welsh-medium education over the years, but perhaps not
enough emphasis years ago on how you retain those people and give
them the confidence to use the Welsh language, ultimately.
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[185]
Fel un sy’n dod o deulu lle mae
pawb yn siarad Cymraeg, wel, felly, roedd yn rhywbeth hollol
naturiol i mi, er taw ym Mhen-y-bont cefais i fy nghodi. Roeddem
ni’n siarad Cymraeg yn y tŷ, er i ysgol Saesneg es i.
Roedd yn hollol naturiol i siarad Cymraeg gyda phobl a oedd yn
siarad Cymraeg. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae profiad sut cymaint o bobl
eraill yn wahanol, sef: yr unig Gymraeg roedden nhw’n ei
chlywed oedd yn yr ysgol, ac unwaith roedd y safle hwnnw
wedi’i golli iddyn nhw, nid oedd yna gyfle iddyn nhw siarad
Cymraeg ar ôl hynny. Dyna’r bobl mae’n rhaid i ni
ddal arnynt er mwyn cyrraedd y targed.
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As someone who comes from a family where
everyone spoke Welsh, well, it was entirely natural for me,
although I was brought up in Bridgend. I spoke Welsh at home,
although I went to an English-medium school. It was entirely
natural for me to communicate in Welsh with those who spoke Welsh.
But, of course, so many people have a different experience: the
only Welsh that many people heard was in school, and, once they
left school, there was no opportunity for them to use the language
after that. Those are the people that we have to keep hold of in
order to attain that target.
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[186]
Dai Lloyd: Ie, wel, diolch am hynny. Yr union brofiad
â finnau: mae pawb yn fy nheulu i yn siarad Cymraeg, ond i
ysgolion gyfrwng Saesneg es i hefyd, achos roedd yna ddiffyg
darpariaeth ar y pryd, achos ein bod ni mor hen. Rwy’n falch
o weld yr holl ysgolion Cymraeg yma yn blodeuo dros y lle i
gyd.
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Dai Lloyd: Well, yes, thank you very
much for that. You had the same experience as I did: everybody in
my family speaks Welsh, but I went to an English-medium school
because there was that lack of provision at the time, because
we’re so old. But I’m very pleased to see all these
Welsh-medium schools flourishing across Wales.
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[187]
Ond roedd y cwestiwn yn benodol: lle
mae gyda chi ysgolion Cymraeg rŵan, ac mae gyda chi athrawon
yn dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y pynciau hynny, mae diffyg
deunydd yn y Gymraeg ar gael, fel yn addysg grefyddol. Nid
yw’r llyfrau ac ati a’r gefnogaeth gyfrifiadurol ar
gael yn Gymraeg, dim ond yn y Saesneg, er bod athrawon ar gael. Yr
un peth, pan fyddech chi’n newid y cwricwlwm yn ffiseg, ac
ati, ac weithiau yng nghemeg, hefyd, o fy nghof—mae’n
rhaid newid, ond mae yna lag, mae yna oedi, cyn bod y
deunydd Cymraeg ar gael yn ein hysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ni gydag
athrawon eisoes yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dyna ydy’r
her.
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But the question with regard to Welsh-medium
schools specifically now, and you have teachers teaching through
the medium of Welsh in those subjects, is the lack of material in
the Welsh language, for example, with religious education. The
textbooks and the IT support aren’t available. They’re
only available in English, although there are Welsh-medium teachers
available. The same happens when you change the curriculum in
physics and so on, and sometimes in chemistry, from memory. There
is a lag before the Welsh-medium materials are available in our
Welsh-medium schools with teachers who are already able to teach
through the medium of Welsh. That’s the challenge.
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[188]
Y Prif Weinidog:
Dyletswydd, mewn ffordd, CBAC yw hwn.
Nhw sy’n gyfrifol am gyhoeddi’r llyfrau sydd yn cefnogi
cwricwlwm y pwnc. Fel rhywun—rwy’n mynd i gyfaddef hwn
nawr—sydd wedi mynd i safle’r we ac wedi edrych ar beth
sydd ar gael fel adnoddau i bobl ifanc sy’n astudio trwy
gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae yna rai pynciau lle mae’r llyfrau yna,
ond mae pynciau eraill—ac mae addysg grefyddol yn un ohonyn
nhw—TGAU, lle nad oes yna ddim llyfr yn Gymraeg sydd yn
cefnogi’r pwnc. Mae un yn dod, ond mae hwnnw’n dod, os
cofiaf i, ym mis Mawrth y flwyddyn nesaf. So, mae yna her hefyd
i’r cydbwyllgor sicrhau bod yr adnoddau ar gael er mwyn
cefnogi’r pwnc, yn enwedig pan fo’r cwricwlwm yn
newid.
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The First Minister: Well, that’s
the responsibility of the WJEC, in a way. They’re responsible
for publishing the textbook support in the subject curriculum. Now,
as one—I’m going to confess this now—who’s
gone to the website and looked at what’s available as
resources for young people studying through the medium of Welsh,
there are certain subjects where the textbooks are already in
place, but there are others—and RE is one of them—at
GCSE where there is no textbook through the medium of Welsh to
support the subject. It’s on its way; I think it’s
going to be available in March of next year. So, it is a challenge
for the WJEC to ensure that the resources are available in order to
support subjects, particularly when the curriculum changes.
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[189]
Beth ddylai digwydd, wrth gwrs, yw,
os yw’r cwricwlwm yn newid, felly, dylai’r adnoddau fod
yna unwaith i’r cwricwlwm newid. Ond nid felly y mae ym mhob
pwnc ar hyn o bryd.
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What should happen, of course, is that, if the
curriculum changes, then the resources should be in place once that
change is made. But that’s not always the case with every
subject at the moment.
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[190] Ann
Jones: Lynne, you’ve got a few questions.
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[191]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. First Minister, we’re sat here today
in the Cwmbran Centre for Young People, and I am incredibly proud
of the work that they do supporting young people here. The Welsh
Government has previously committed to ensure that we have
universal open access youth provision across Wales, but I can tell
you that centres like this, because of austerity and the pressure
on local government, are existing hand to mouth. What plans
do you have to ensure that that commitment to universal open access
youth provision is a reality in Wales?
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[192] The
First Minister: Well, we will encourage local authorities, of
course, to provide that provision. We provide funding for local
authorities through the revenue support grant. Many local
authorities—and we have an example here in Cwmbran—are
able to support young people’s centres. It’s not
something we’d want to fund directly. It’s hugely
important that local communities are able to determine what kind of
provision should be made for young people. But, clearly, we would
be very concerned if we saw centres across Wales being closed and
young people finding they’ve got nothing to do.
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[193] Lynne
Neagle: Okay. This centre gets very little funding, actually,
off the local authority. They’re constantly having to apply
for grants. One of the things that was recommended to Welsh
Government, mindful of the reluctance to hypothecate funding, was
that Welsh Government develop an outcomes framework that actually
ensures that local authorities do deliver, across Wales, that level
of provision. Is that something that you can discuss with the
Minister responsible, to try and make that a reality?
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[194] The
First Minister: Yes, I can. In many ways, that chimes with the
well-being of future generations Act again, and the
responsibilities that local authorities have. We encourage local
authorities to create the participative frameworks via youth
councils, but of course it’s hugely important that, alongside
that, there are facilities available. I don’t underestimate
the challenges of local authorities—I know. We face austerity
every year on an annual basis, and local authorities are no
different in that regard. But, it is something I’ll discuss
with the Minister. Perhaps if I write to the committee with more
information on that in terms of our thinking.
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[195] Ann
Jones: That would be very helpful.
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[196] Lynne
Neagle: I just had another question then on transport, which
again is an issue that’s come up in the discussions with
young people. I’m obviously very mindful that older people in
Wales get free bus travel, while young people who are having to
trek about Gwent and other areas on public transport are having to
find the money. One young woman that I spoke to earlier is spending
£20 a day going on the train to Hereford. Can you provide an
update on plans to introduce a genuine concessionary travel scheme
for young people that will really make a difference?
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[197] Ann
Jones: I’ve got a couple of Members—I think
it’s on transport—before you come back. John, and then
David, and then—. Is it on transport?
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[198] David
J. Rowlands: This is not on transport.
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[199] Ann
Jones: Yours isn’t on transport.
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[200] David
J. Rowlands: No.
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[201] Ann
Jones: On transport, John?
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[202] John
Griffiths: Yes, it’s the same point as Lynne’s.
We’ve had this debate about intergenerational justice and
fairness. It’s often said that because older people tend to
vote in greater numbers, they get more concentration and more focus
from Governments, and policies are meeting the needs that they have
and offering them benefits. We talked about votes at 16 earlier,
which hopefully might change that balance a little bit, but I just
think that what Lynne is talking about is a good example of that.
There’s free travel for over-60s, but there isn’t free
travel for younger people, and it is having a real impact on their
incomes and the money that they have to spend otherwise.
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[203] The
First Minister: In terms of the trains, the discounts are the
same for young people and older people via the railcards.
It’s a third off for both, if I remember rightly. But, in
terms of buses, a consultation was launched on 10 October on
introducing a discounted bus scheme for young people. Obviously,
the aim is to capture the views of young people, schools and
colleges—as wide as possible. What we want to do is to obtain
views about a range of possible enhancements to the current young
persons discounted bus travel scheme, including perhaps increasing
the age limit to 24 in the future. We would look to introduce the
new scheme in April next year, and we want that scheme to reflect
the views of young people coming through the consultation.
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[204] John
Griffiths: Just to say, Chair, all the younger people here
today can take part in that consultation and make their views
known.
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[205] The
First Minister: Yes, the more the merrier. The question is how.
They can answer the question about how we do it. Perhaps, at the
end of this session, it might be useful for some of our people here
to liaise and give them the opportunity to find out how they do
that.
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[206] Ann
Jones: Yes, that’s fine, I’m sure we’ll be
able to provide you with the website or even how to write and do
your consultations. That would be very handy. David, you’ve
got a question.
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[207] David
J. Rowlands: Yes. The young people we spoke to this morning
voiced their frustrations at the fact that they are finding great
difficulty in securing work experience. I know, through the
Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, we’ve heard
evidence in evidence sessions that this is a universal problem.
Given the fact that we now have moves within the Welsh Government
and the education department towards apprenticeships and vocational
skills, should this not be a priority area for the relevant Welsh
Government departments to look into this and to make sure that
there are adequate abilities out there for the students to access
work experience?
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[208] The
First Minister: I think there are three issues there. First of
all, with work experience, it’s the responsibility of the
educational institution to arrange that. I don’t say
that’s easy, but it’s for them to work with local
businesses to provide those opportunities for young people.
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[209] On the
issue of apprenticeships, one of the issues I think that does need
to be borne down on is the issue of internships—unpaid
internships—which pretend to be work-experience schemes, but
are in fact long-term schemes where people give up their time and
don’t get paid for it. I think there has been a tendency in
some organisations to offer internships that are not paid. The BBC,
actually, is one organisation where there are a number of unpaid
internships where there might be questions as to why it’s
done that way. I mean, people want to get that work experience in
the BBC, but we must be careful that it doesn’t cross the
line into what seems to be long-term, unpaid work.
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[210]
Apprenticeships are hugely important, we know that. We have an
ambition, of course, to create 100,000 apprenticeships across
Wales—all ages—because we know that people have to
retrain many times in the course of their lives. But, if we look at
schemes such as Jobs Growth Wales—hugely successful—if
I remember rightly, 17,000 young people were offered opportunities
of apprenticeships that then led to jobs, with an 80 per cent
success rate.
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[211] We know
that if you work with businesses and ask businesses, ‘Look,
what do you need?’, as we did with Jobs Growth Wales, then
they’ll say—. What we found with Jobs Growth Wales is
that a lot of small businesses were saying, ‘We’d like
to take someone on. We can’t afford to train them. There is a
job for them. So, you, Government, the best help you could give us
would be to provide us with the funds to train that person so that
we can then take them on.’ That’s exactly how the
scheme worked, and it worked very well, and that meant that many
young people had opportunities that otherwise they wouldn’t
have.
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[212] David
J. Rowlands: I just want to scrutinise you just a little bit on
the fact that you said it’s the educational departments that
have the duty to put these work experience situations in place.
They’re saying there are issues such as insurance and—I
know, from when I took some work experience people in—health
and safety. I had one come in to work in the kitchen of a business
I had, and he wasn’t allowed to touch hot water, touch
knives, or in any way get involved, so he was standing around. Now,
that’s health and safety, we know that, but it’s all
frustrating this ability for young people to have work
experience.
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[213] The
First Minister: Yes, it’s not much work experience if
people stand around and watch.
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[214] David
J. Rowlands: No, absolutely, that’s right.
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[215] The
First Minister: I take the point. The issues that have been
referred to there are not issues that are devolved. What would be
interesting to me is if I was able to hear examples of difficulties
that not just schools and colleges, but individuals have faced in
trying to gain work experience. My son is going to need to get work
experience in February, so I’ll soon see how easy that is for
the school involved. I’ve not heard evidence that this is a
widespread problem, but if that is the case, I’d like to hear
more about it to see what we might be able to do as a Government in
order to help to alleviate the situation.
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[216] Ann
Jones: I think, First Minister, that there is sufficient
evidence from the work that we’ve done and the outreach work
that was done previously. We can provide you with some examples in
our follow-up letter to you, to enable you to have a wider picture
of the problems young people are facing. Certainly, I think most of
us as Assembly Members have offered to assist with that, but if
we’re going to come up against issues of insurance, health
and safety, and other issues, then it’s about safeguarding
those young people as well. So, we’ll provide you with the
evidence, hopefully—
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[217] The
First Minister: That would be really useful.
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[218] Ann
Jones: —and then get a response back and then feed it
back out to people, if that’s okay. If everybody’s
happy, I’m going to close this part of the session and say
thank you very much for that. We’re going to move—.
There’s a couple of issues you’re going to provide
further information on and we’ll provide information to you
on the main substance of that.
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11:30
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Sesiwn i Graffu ar
Waith y Gweinidog—Materion Amserol
Ministerial Scrutiny Session—Topical Matters
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[219]
Ann Jones: I’m
now going to move to item 3 on the agenda, which is topical issues.
I’ve been notified of two, but I’m reluctant to say
I’ve only been notified of two, because I know what will
happen, you’ll all find some. We know we’re time
specific on this. Huw, you’ve got the first topical question,
and then I’ll be coming to Dai Lloyd after.
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[220] Huw
Irranca-Davies: Thank you, Chair. First Minister, we’ve
already discussed in the earlier session the important
relationships between the higher education sector in Wales and the
UK and other European nations, regardless of the issues around
Brexit. But, I’m wondering if he has any concerns over the
teaching of European-related matters within Wales’s higher
education sector and whether he’s considered it necessary to
write out to the universities to see what’s on the
curriculum, who’s teaching it, and what they’re
saying.
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[221] The
First Minister: I have not felt the need to do that. I very
much defend the academic freedom of universities and I do not think
universities have to—well, not just justify what they teach,
but to provide a list of names of the people who teach those
courses. That, for me, was the most sinister part of that
request.
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[222] Ann
Jones: Okay, thank you. That was very good. Dai Lloyd.
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[223]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Cadeirydd. Beth roeddwn i eisiau ei godi
oedd bod yna adolygiad allan rŵan am ddyfodol uwch ganolfannau
trawma yn ne Cymru—major trauma centres—ac mi
fyddwch chi’n ymwybodol bod yna adolygiad eisoes wedi mynd
allan. Mae yna ymgynghori rŵan ac fe fydd y cynghorau iechyd
cymuned lleol yn ymgynghori ac ati. Wrth gwrs, y bwriad ydy—. Mae yna un ganolfan
trawma ar hyn o bryd yn Abertawe ac un arall yng Nghaerdydd. Wrth
gwrs, bwriad a phenderfyniad yr adolygiad yma ydy cael un yn ne
Cymru, a bydd yr un honno yng Nghaerdydd.
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Dai
Lloyd: Thank you very much, Chair. The issue that I
wanted to raise was that there’s a review now of the future
of major trauma centres in south Wales, and you will be aware that
there’s already been a review undertaken. There’s a
consultation now and the local community health councils will
consult on that. The intention is that there will be—. There
is currently one trauma centre in Swansea and one in Cardiff. The
aim and the decision of this review is to have one in south Wales,
and that one centre will be located in Cardiff.
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[224]
Yn naturiol, mae hyn wedi codi
gwrychyn pawb yn y gorllewin, nid jest yn Abertawe, ond hefyd yn
Aberafan, Castell-nedd, sir Gaerfyrddin, Ceredigion, de Gwynedd,
sir Drefaldwyn, sir Benfro—y llefydd yma sydd, yn naturiol,
yn tynnu pobl at y gweithgareddau arbenigol yma sy’n digwydd
yn y ganolfan drydyddol, sef Ysbyty Treforys. Mae Treforys yn
wynebu, felly, colli un o’i gwasanaethau trydyddol, sef
trawma.
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Now, this has caused a great deal of concern
in the west, not just in Swansea, but also in Aberavon, Neath,
Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, south Gwynedd, Montgomeryshire,
Pembrokeshire—these areas that do refer people to the
specialist services offered in the tertiary centre in Morriston
Hospital. Morriston is facing the loss of one of its tertiary
services, namely trauma.
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[225]
Mi fyddwch chi’n ymwybodol
o’r hanes, wrth gwrs, yn y gorffennol, pan mae yna adolygiad
wedi bod. Bymtheg mlynedd yn ôl, roedd yna adolygiad i
ddyfodol niwrolawdriniaeth pediatrig. Roedd yna ddwy ganolfan yn y
de, ac un oedd i fod. Roedd y dewis rhwng Treforys a Chaerdydd.
Caerdydd a gafodd ei dewis, er bod yr unig paediatric
neurosurgeon ar y pryd yn Abertawe. Nid oedd hynny’n
ddigon cryf i gadw’r ganolfan yn Abertawe. Symudwyd hi i
Gaerdydd.
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You’ll be aware of the history, in the
past, when a review has been undertaken. Fifteen years ago, there
was a review of the future of paediatric neurosurgery. There were
two centres in the south and there was meant to be one. The choice
was between Morriston and Cardiff. Cardiff was chosen, despite the
fact that the only paediatric neurosurgeon was located in Swansea.
That wasn’t a strong enough case to keep the centre in
Swansea. It moved to Cardiff.
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[226]
Rhyw 10 mlynedd yn ôl, roedd yr
un un math o ymgynghoriad ar niwrolawdriniaeth. Dwy ganolfan yn y
de, Abertawe a Chaerdydd, un oedd i fod, ac, hey presto,
mynd i Gaerdydd. Nawr, rydym ni’n wynebu’r un math o
beth. Hefyd, yn y dyfodol agos, bydd yna ymgynghoriad arall allan
ar lawdriniaeth y frest—thoracic surgery. Mae yna ddwy
ganolfan yn y de, Treforys a Chaerdydd, ac rydym ni’n disgwyl
yn eiddgar am ganlyniad yr adolygiad yna.
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Some 10 years ago, there was the same kind of
consultation on neurosurgery. There were two centres in the south,
one in Swansea and one in Cardiff, there was meant to be just one,
and, hey presto, it moved to Cardiff. Now, we’re facing the
same kind of issue again. Also, in the near future, there’ll
be another consultation on thoracic surgery. There are two centres
in the south, one in Morriston, one in Cardiff, and
we’re eagerly expecting the result of that consultation.
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[227]
Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna ddau berygl
yn y fan hyn. Hynny yw, mae Abertawe, Treforys, eisoes yn ganolfan
arbenigol drydyddol efo nifer fawr o driniaethau arbenigol, sydd yn
ymdrin â’r rhan fwyaf o ddaearyddiaeth Cymru—y
canolbarth a rhannau o’r gogledd. Wrth gwrs, mae yna bethau
arbenigol wedi datblygu hefyd yn Abertawe yn sgil y city
deal—yr ysgol feddygol newydd ac ati. Ac wrth gwrs, pan
mae yna adolygiad arall—. So, yr un pwynt ydy tanseilio
Abertawe, peryglu hynny neu beth bynnag, fel canolfan
arbenigol.
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But, there are two dangers here. Morriston in
Swansea is already a specialist tertiary centre with a great deal
of specialist treatments undertaken, covering most of the geography
of Wales—mid Wales and parts of north Wales. There are
specialist services that have developed in Swansea following the
city deal—the new medical school, and so on. And of course,
when there is another review—. So, the one point is
that it undermines Swansea, endangers that or whatever, as a
specialist centre.
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[228]
Yr ail bwynt ydy, o ganoli popeth yng
Nghaerdydd, pan fyddwch chi’n cael adolygiad arall ar raddfa
Brydeinig, mae hi wastad yn gystadleuaeth rhwng Caerdydd a Bryste,
ac fel rheol, Bryste sy’n tueddu i ennill y gystadleuaeth
honno. Rydym ni wedi gweld hynny efo llawdriniaeth y galon i blant
rhai blynyddoedd yn ôl—paediatric cardiac
surgery. Roedd yna ddewis rhwng Caerdydd a Bryste; mi aeth o i
Fryste, er ym Mryste roedd y problemau wedi dechrau, fel rydych
chi’n cofio—y sgandal marwolaethau plant nôl ym
1998. Felly, yr ail
berygl—nid jest perygl i Abertawe ynglŷn â dyfodol
trydyddol, ond hefyd y perygl i Gymru o golli pob gwasanaeth,
neu’r rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw, os ydy wastad yn dod lawr i
gystadleuaeth rhwng Caerdydd a Bryste.
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The second point is, if you centralise
everything in Cardiff, when you have another British review,
it’s always a competition between Cardiff and Bristol, and as
a rule, Bristol tends to win in that particular competition.
We’ve seen that with heart surgery for children a few years
ago—paediatric cardiac surgery. There was a choice between
Cardiff and Bristol; it went to Bristol, despite the fact that the
problems started in Bristol, as you will remember—the child
death scandal back in 1998. So, the second danger—it’s
not just a risk for Swansea and the future of tertiary services,
but it’s a risk for Wales losing all its services, or the
majority of them, if it always comes down to a competition between
Cardiff and Bristol.
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[229]
Y pwynt olaf ydy bod yna 27 major
trauma centre yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd. Un fydd nawr yng
Nghymru. Ac wrth gwrs, rydym ni’n mynd i gael adolygiad arall
yn y dyfodol, sy’n mynd i ddweud bod 28 o major trauma
centres yn ormod, ‘Beth am gael dwsin?’ Felly, bydd
yna gystadleuaeth rhwng Caerdydd a Bryste, a disgwyliwn ni i weld
lle bydd y penderfyniad.
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My final point is that there are 27 major
trauma centres in England at present. There’ll be one in
Wales. And of course, we’re going to have another review in
future that’s going to say that 28 trauma centres is too
many, ‘Why don’t we have a dozen?’ And then there
will be another competition between Cardiff and Bristol, and
we’ll await the result of that decision.
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[230]
Y Prif Weinidog:
Wel, yn gyntaf, nid oes barn gan y
Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd ar hwn. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth i’r
byrddau iechyd ei drafod. Os nad ydyn nhw’n cytuno, wrth
gwrs, fe fydd yna rôl wedyn i Weinidogion Cymru. Mae pawb yn
gytûn taw un ganolfan a ddylai fod. Beth sydd ddim, wrth
gwrs, wedi cael ei gytuno yw ym mhle y dylai’r ganolfan honno
fod. Mae yna adolygiad wedi cymryd lle. Mae hwnnw nawr yn
nwylo’r byrddau iechyd. Mae lan iddyn nhw nawr i sicrhau beth
yw’r ffordd ymlaen i fod.
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The First Minister: Well, first of all,
the Government hasn’t taken a view on this. This is something
for the health boards to discuss. If they can’t agree on an
outcome, of course, there will be a role for Welsh Ministers at
that point. Everyone is agreed that there should be one centre.
What hasn’t been agreed is where that centre should be. A
review has now taken place that’s now in the hands of the
health boards, and it’s up to them to decide on the way
forward.
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[231]
Ynglŷn â chystadleuaeth
rhwng Bryste a Chaerdydd, er enghraifft, wel, nawr, wrth gwrs, mae
yna Lywodraeth gyda ni. Gallaf i roi un enghraifft lle y byddai
gwasanaeth wedi mynd yn hollol i Loegr yn y gorffennol, a honno
wrth gwrs yw beth fydd yn cael
ei ddarparu gan y ganolfan isranbarthol ar gyfer gofal dwys
i’r newydd-anedig yng
Nglan Clwyd. Yn
nyddiau’r Swyddfa Gymreig, byddai’r gwasanaethau hynny
i gyd wedi mynd i Alder Hey. Fe gymerais i’r penderfyniad, ar
ôl adolygiad, y dylai’r gwasanaethau hynny gael eu
cynnal yng Nghymru. Roedd modd i wneud hynny mewn ffordd
saff—roedd hynny’n hollbwysig—ac felly, wrth
gwrs, mae’r SuRNICC yn cael ei adeiladu ar hyn o bryd yng
Nglan Clwyd. Felly, un peth y
gallaf ei ddweud gyda hyder, a buaswn i’n hoffi siarad am
Lywodraethau i ddod hefyd, byddai neb o blaid rhoi lan canolfan
drawma yng Nghymru, ble bynnag fydd y ganolfan hynny yn
mynd.
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In terms of competition between Cardiff and
Bristol, for example, well, now, we have a Government. I can give
you one example where a service would have gone entirely to England
in the past, and that example of course is what’s to be
provided by the sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre at Glan
Clwyd. During the days of the Welsh Office, all of those services
would have gone immediately to Alder Hey. I took the decision,
following a review, that those services should be provided in
Wales. It was possible to do that in a safe manner—and
that’s crucially important, of course—and we now do
have that SuRNICC, which is currently being built at Glan Clwyd.
So, one thing I can say with confidence, and I hope I can speak on
behalf of future Governments too, that nobody would be in favour of
giving up a major trauma centre in Wales, wherever that centre may
be based.
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[232] Ann
Jones: David, on this point.
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[233] David
Rees: On this point and another point, if that’s
okay.
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[234] Ann
Jones: On this point first, and then I might come back to you
in a minute.
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[235] David
Rees: They’re both on health. On the major trauma centre
decision, it’s interesting that they’re talking about
making the decision based upon neurosurgery services at Cardiff,
which means, therefore, the loss of the service back—however
many years ago—has now influenced the decision on the major
trauma centre. I would hate to see a situation where the major
trauma centre influences a decision on other services and we see a
continued diminution of services at Morriston in that sense. But
linking into that—and I’ll put the other question into
that—today, actually, your Government has issued a statement
saying that the consultation on the boundary changes for ABMU is
going to start shortly. It’s going to have a major impact in
my position on my constituents, because my constituents actually
share the services between the two sides of ABMU, east and west.
But, what impact would that have upon Morriston and the major
trauma centre as well? Because, again, services will be under
pressure as a consequence of that. There will be fewer resources,
possibly, going into Morriston because funding will be reduced as a
consequence of that. In the consultation process, will you be
making sure that the details of what will be on offer and how that
will be funded are clear? Because people need to have confidence
that their health service is going to be delivering the care they
want and will not suffer as a consequence of one local authority
wanting to go east rather than west.
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[236] The
First Minister: I have to be careful here, because this
directly affects my own constituency, so I will not be part of the
decision-making process in the future. We do need to make sure, of
course, that we have as much consistency as possible in the
regional footprints across Wales, and of course there’s a
consultation out to see what that means for the county borough of
Bridgend and its future relationship with the health boards. I
don’t think I can go any further without expressing a view as
the consultation is ongoing, and it wouldn’t be right for me
to say so in this capacity as First Minister.
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[237] David
Rees: Well, can I ask, in the capacity of First Minister, will
you ensure your Government ensures there’s sufficient detail
as to how the funding arrangements will be put in place and how the
service arrangements will be put in place, as part of that
consultation, so that people can see that?
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[238] The
First Minister: I will impress upon the Cabinet Secretary the
need to be as transparent as possible, without getting involved in
the decision-making process.
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[239] Ann
Jones: Right. Nick. You’re—. On health.
Loosely—
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[240]
Nick Ramsay: It’s on health, but locally. We’re just
down the road, here, from the site of the new critical care centre,
the Llanfrechfa hospital that Lynne Neagle and I have been asking
questions about for as long as I can remember—Lynne longer
than me. Can you give us an update on where we are with that? Are
we still looking at a 2021 opening date, I think it was?
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[241]
The First Minister:
Yes, we are.
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[242]
Nick Ramsay: Thank you.
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[243]
Ann Jones: John.
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[244]
John Griffiths:
We’re going through the Welsh
Government, the Assembly’s, budget process at the moment,
First Minister, and I think most people will be aware that health
is taking a bigger and bigger share of the overall budget, and I
think people will understand the pressures that create that. But
nonetheless, health is determined—good health or indeed ill
health—by a wide range of factors, and local
authorities are responsible for a lot of service delivery that very
directly impacts on health, I guess most obviously with social
care, but also things like leisure services, community development,
youth services. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about
how Welsh Government is recognising the importance of local
government in the round, but also in terms of ensuring good health,
and to what extent Welsh Government is working with local
authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association to
understand the pressures that they face, and to help them find new,
better models of delivery around leisure services, around community
development, for example.
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[245] The
First Minister: The key is collaboration. I’ve said it
many, many times: I don’t believe that our local authorities
are able to deliver consistently in many areas because, quite
often, it’s an issue of size; it’s an issue of the
critical mass within departments. There are two ways of dealing
with that: one is reorganisation. We’ve been there. The other
one is collaboration that is mandatory and not voluntary.
We’ve tried that before, and it doesn’t work. My worry
is always that we always have one department—at least one
department—in one local authority that isn’t
performing. At the moment, of course, we have the warning notices
being issued to Powys. At one point we had six local authorities in
special measures for education. We had one local authority that
collapsed so fundamentally we had to take it over, in Anglesey.
Well, that’s not a sustainable footprint for local
authorities in the future. That said, we have a good example of the
way that local authorities have collaborated in terms of education
provision, and we’ve seen the difference. It’s been
much better over the last few years in terms of provision, in terms
of results, and local authorities can take credit for the
collaborative work that they have put forward.
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[246] Regional
working is crucial. Morriston Hospital have told me in the past
that they work with seven different social services departments and
all have slightly different ways of working. Well, that’s not
really a good way of ensuring seamless provision of health and
social care. We need to make sure that there’s much more
seamlessness across local authority boundaries, that there’s
much more regional delivery of services. I get the impression that
in some departments in some of the smaller local authorities, they
lose two or three people, perhaps if they’re on the sick, and
they’re starting to struggle in a way that Mid Glamorgan
didn’t, that Gwent didn’t, because they had the
critical mass that was needed. So, that regional model of working
that is mandatory is absolutely crucial to ensuring success in the
future, whilst local authorities, of course, are able to maintain
their identities and local people are able to elect local
authorities for their own area.
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[247] Ann
Jones: Okay. Because I’m in a particularly good mood,
because it is the start of half term next week, you can have a
final question, Mr Rees.
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[248] David
Rees: Thank you, Chair. We talked about Brexit this morning,
and very much the impact upon young people and children, but
clearly nationally there were some major concerns happening this
week, particularly when David Davis, the Secretary of State, seemed
to give an indication that there will be no vote in Parliament
possibly until after the exit date, if we know the exit date. The
Prime Minister seems to give a different message. Have you had
discussions with the UK Government and the Prime Minister to say
whether the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly would actually
have any say on any final deal?
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[249] The
First Minister: Well, I’ve always made the point that any
deal should be ratified by the—hopefully at that
point—four parliaments. I think that gives it far more
robustness than would otherwise be the case. There are issues that
are not devolved that will affect us greatly in the future,
particularly with regard to trade. A free trade agreement with New
Zealand can only be bad for Wales. There’s nothing that we
can gain from it, but our farmers can lose an awful lot from it. I
think the greatest danger that the UK faces—and the chances
of it are probably slim. I think that we’ll end up with
something in terms of a deal with the EU. I think the chances of
‘no deal’ are fairly slim, but there is still that
possibility that we come out of the EU without a trade deal with
anyone, in which case our manufacturers have open access to
Britain, which is far too small for them to be able to prosper.
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[250] I was
saying to people that Britain is smaller than Vietnam. It’s
half the size of Japan. It’s not a big market in terms of
numbers. Historically, Britain’s economy has grown on trade
with other countries. It is absolutely crucial that we are able to
get a good deal in terms of access, for Welsh business, to a market
that is much bigger than the States, on our doorstep, and already
has a great deal of regulatory convergence. The rules are the same
anyway. So, if we can’t conclude an agreement with the
European market, doing it with other markets where rules are very
different, where regulations are very different, that’s going
to take us six or seven years.
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[251] I’ve
spoken to people who have been involved in trade negotiations and
they all say the same to me: it takes about six or seven years to
conclude a trade deal. When Greenland left the EU, it took some
years for the deal to be done, even though it was mainly around
fish and not much else. So, these things are never as easy as they
look. I’ve seen the list of WTO tariffs and the amounts of
those tariffs, and it is so detailed that there are tariffs on hats
and umbrellas. It’s a vast list and the tariffs vary.
There’s a different tariff on smoked fish compared to fresh
fish. It’s incredibly complicated. So, the emphasis to me
shouldn’t be on, ‘Let’s try and get a trade deal
with the States in a year’—that’s never going to
happen; it’s, ‘Let’s focus on getting the best
deal possible with our biggest market that’s on our
doorstep.’
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11:45
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[252] David
Rees: On the issue of trade deals, the trade White Paper and
the customs White Paper have been published and they involve the
comment that they will consult with the devolved administrations,
and I think one says devolved legislatures, which is the Assembly.
But, I can consult with people and ignore the consultation. Have
they indicated they will listen and act? Are they actually going to
be involving you or are they just simply paying lip service to
it?
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[253] The
First Minister: I think that if it’s perceived over many
years that the UK Government is not listening to the legislatures
of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, there are challenges there
for the UK, challenges that I don’t want to see emerge. So,
it’s hugely important that consultation is meaningful. Where
there are serious concerns, such as—our farmers will say,
quite rightly, ‘What is the use of a trade deal with New
Zealand? It’s a market of 4 million.’ New Zealand lamb
is not a direct competitor to Welsh lamb, it operates in different
markets, but if restrictions were taken off the import of New
Zealand lamb into the UK, there is a direct effect on Welsh
farmers. Take that together with ‘no deal’, with a 40
per cent tariff on Welsh lamb going into its main market, which is
Europe, and sheep farming gets wiped out. Not all farming. Dairy
farming wouldn’t get affected in the same way.
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[254]
There’s no need for this. This can be resolved. It’s
not as if this is inevitable. But I am not supportive of free trade
deals for the sake of it. It depends which country it’s with
and it depends on the relative income levels. Free trade deals work
best when they’re conducted with markets where there is a
similar wage rate. Otherwise, you end up exporting your jobs into a
cheaper market, which is what drove a lot of the discontent in the
American presidential elections last year: people saw jobs going to
Mexico, where wage rates were lower. I remember when the accession
countries from eastern Europe came into the EU, some factories did
move into Hungary and Poland because wages were lower, but they
were the sorts of businesses that would just move on to somewhere
else in time. So, free trade agreements are not the panacea that
people think they are if they’re done with the wrong
countries and with the wrong markets. Do it in the wrong way, and
you just export jobs.
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[255] Ann
Jones: Thank you very much. I’m going to draw it to a
close there and say thank you very much to the First Minister for
coming in, and thank you to Members and to those in the public
gallery for listening. I hope you found it useful.
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[256] At this
point, I want to say thank you to the centre for allowing us to
come here and use your venue, and for your patience and your
co-operation. As you’ll have noticed, we don’t travel
lightly at all. So, it’s particular thanks to Leila Long and
David Schofield and all the team—I don’t know where
they are, somewhere around—and the management committee as
well for their help in organising the practicalities for this
meeting to take place.
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[257] Thank you,
First Minister, for coming along. We’ll send you a draft, but
we’ll also write to you with some of the points that we said
we would raise with you, and look forward to having your points
back from there. I understand that your office has indicated that
you have a couple of minutes now to have a photograph with some of
the children.
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[258] The
First Minister: I do.
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[259] Ann
Jones: So, we’ll arrange that now.
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11:49
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Cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r
Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o
weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42.
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that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42.
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Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[260] Ann
Jones: But, before we do that, can I just ask that the motion
under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from
the rest of the meeting—for us to have a private
session—is accepted? Okay, thank you very much. So, if
that’s okay then, we’ll set some photographs up. We can
reconvene at 12.00 p.m. if that’s all right. Thank you. Thank
you very much.
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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
11:49.
The public part of the meeting ended at
11:49.
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