The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
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Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:00.
The meeting began at 09:00.
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Cyflwyniad,
Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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[1]
Mike Hedges: It is 9
o’clock. Thank you. Can I welcome everyone to the meeting
this morning? I’ll remind people you’re welcome to
speak in Welsh or English. Headsets are available for translation
of Welsh to English. There is no need to turn off mobile phones or
other electronic devices, but please ensure that any devices are in
silent mode. We’ve received an apology from Neil McEvoy and
David Lloyd is substituting.
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Deisebau
Newydd
New Petitions
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[2]
Mike Hedges: That takes us on now to item 2.1, a petition by
Chris Neilsen:
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[3]
‘How can it be right that NHS workers in Wales some earning
as low as £7.80 per hour doing much needed jobs when the
welsh government is funding such non jobs as Future's Commissioner
on 100k per annum and a Welsh Language Commissioner on 90k and many
such newly created non jobs. These new layers of silly non
jobs should be abolished and the money given to low paid NHS
staff.’
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[4]
This came in earlier and has been sent to the Cabinet Secretary for
Health, Well-being and Sport. A response was received on 15
December. We’ve had a research briefing. The petitioner was
informed the petition would be considered by the committee but had
not responded when papers for committee were being finalised. Still
no response?
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[5]
Mr Francis: No response.
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[6]
Mike Hedges: I ask Members
what action they would like to take on this issue. The letter from
the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that all NHS employees receive at
least the Living Wage Foundation’s recommended pay rate of
£8.25 per hour. Recommendations on pay for NHS staff are made
to the Cabinet Secretary by the independent NHS pay review body.
We’ve got a choice of either waiting for the views of the
petitioner before deciding whether to take further action on this
issue, or to write to the petitioner telling him what I just read
out. What are your wishes?
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[7]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Write.
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[8]
Dai Lloyd: Write.
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[9]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
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[10]
Next is a petition to ‘Establish
Proportional Representation Voting System for Welsh Local Council
Elections’, with 202 signatures, calling for proportional
representation for 22 Welsh councils. It was sent to the Cabinet
Secretary in October. An initial response has been received and a
supplementary response was received earlier this month. A research
briefing on the petition and related issues has been prepared.
Further correspondence has also been received from the petitioner.
Janet.
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[11]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Thanks, Chair. I think the Minister’s responded quite well.
There are measures now coming forward. He’s even talking
about piloting them at local by-elections and things. So, I just
thought that those concerns were—
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[12]
Mike Hedges: Well, we could defer it until after the position of
the Wales Bill has actually made clear whether we actually have the
power to do anything or not. That might be the best thing for us to
do with it because—
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[13]
Dai Lloyd: Particularly in view of the fact that that’s
what the petitioner is requesting there, isn’t he? He’s
asking for a deferment.
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[14]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Are you
happy with that?
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[15]
‘Removal of M4 Speed Restrictions
at the Brynglass Tunnels’, submitted with 15
signatures—speed restrictions were placed in and around
Brynglas tunnels on the eastbound and westbound M4 carriageways.
This was considered on 4 November. There was a response on 22
November. A research briefing on the petition I believe has been
prepared for Members. The petitioner was informed the petition
would be considered by the committee but had not responded when
papers for the committee were being finalised. Have we had a
response?
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[16]
Mr Francis: No.
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[17]
Mike Hedges: There’s been a temporary restriction and it is
anticipated it will be removed in April following current
refurbishment work. A variable speed limit scheme was introduced to
the M4 around Newport. We could wait for the views of the
petitioner, or the research brief quotes a statement by the First
Minister stating that a full assessment of changes to congestion
following the introduction of the variable speed limit would be
undertaken once sufficient information had been gathered. The
committee could write to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and
Infrastructure to enquire whether this has been carried out. Should
we write?
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[18]
Dai Lloyd: Yes, do that.
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[19]
Mike Hedges: Thank you.
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[20]
‘Local Government Finance and
Funding’—a petition submitted by Unison asking,
basically, for more money for local government. It was considered
in November and a response was received on 22 November. A research
brief is available. The petitioner submitted further comments. What
do we want to do? We’ve had the local government settlement
published. The Cabinet Secretary is considering the scope to
introduce a general power of competence, which I think has been
generally welcomed by everybody in local government and everybody
in the Assembly. We don’t often all appear in agreement, but
the general power of competence is one where we have. The
petitioners reiterated the five calls in their petition. The
options are—. The budget has been set—well, it’s
been set for local government. We had the local government debate
this afternoon. So, we’re not going to affect this
year’s budget at all. We could write to the Cabinet Secretary
for Finance and Local Government to ask how there will be
opportunities for the petitioners to engage in the development of
proposals on local government reform.
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[21]
Dai Lloyd: Fine, do that.
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[22]
Mike Hedges: ‘Land & Access Lane Sale at
Abercwmboi’. The petition was submitted with 66
signatures
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[23]
‘to urge the Welsh Government to halt their sale of the land
and access road to the rear of properties numbered 1 to 67 Park
View Terrace’.
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[24]
First considered on 23 November, a response received 7 December, a
research brief on the petition is available. The petitioner was
informed the petition would be considered by the committee and has
not responded. Still not responded?
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[25]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Close it.
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[26]
Mike Hedges: Pardon?
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[27]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Close it.
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[28]
Mike Hedges: Yes, Clerk.
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[29]
Mr Francis: This is only the first consideration of this
petition. So, the petitioner won’t have had very long since
being sent that response—probably a week to 10 days at the
most.
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[30]
Mike Hedges: We’ll give them until the next meeting to
respond.
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[31]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, okay. It’s another two
weeks, isn’t it?
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[32]
Mike Hedges: We’ll give them another two weeks and
then see what happens then.
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[33]
Mr Francis: Okay.
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[34]
Mike Hedges: ‘Unacceptable Waiting Times for NHS
patients in A & E Wrecsam/Wrexham Maelor Hospital’.
Submitted with 14 signatures:
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[35]
‘to debate and discuss and implement measures to resolve
unacceptable waiting times…at A & E Wrecsam/Wrexham
Maelor Hospital.’
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[36]
Considered on 29 November, Cabinet Secretary responded 16 December.
We’ve had a research briefing. The petitioner was informed
that the petition would be considered by the committee, but had not
responded when papers for the committee were being finalised. So,
what do you want to do? The Cabinet Secretary has already said that
75 per cent of patients attending A&E were admitted,
transferred, or discharged within four hours, below the national
target of 95 per cent. The Cabinet Secretary also states that close
monitoring is undertaken by the Welsh Government throughout the
year, and we also know the current situation of Betsi Cadwaladr
University Local Health Board as a health board. Should we wait for
further views from the petitioners? We can also write to Betsi
Cadwaladr to ask what steps are being taken to improve the
performance at A&E.
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[37]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I think we should do that.
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[38]
Dai Lloyd: Yes, good.
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[39]
Mike Hedges: Morning, Gareth.
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[40]
Gareth Bennett: Good morning, apologies.
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[41]
Mike Hedges: No problem. ‘No Further Actions on
Nitrate Vulnerable Zones (NVZ) In Wales At All’. Submitted
with 400 signatures to call
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[42]
‘on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh
Government to take no further actions on NVZ in Wales at
all.’
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[43]
It was considered on 23 November, we’ve written to the
Cabinet Secretary, had a response and a research briefing. The
petitioner was informed. Have they responded?
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[44]
Mr Francis: They called committee staff very recently just
to say they would like to submit comments, but haven’t been
able to in time for this meeting.
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[45]
Mike Hedges: Give them another fortnight.
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[46]
Dai Lloyd: Give them another fortnight, yes.
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09:08
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Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions
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[47]
Mike Hedges: On to updates on previous petitions.
‘Tywyn Memorial Hospital X-ray & Minor Injuries
Unit’. Petition is submitted by Tywyn and District Health
Care Action Group, having collected 4,846 signatures, calling
upon
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[48]
‘the National Assembly for Wales to urge the
Welsh Government to stop the withdrawal of X-ray
facilities’.
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[49]
Discussed on 20 December 2015. No response has been received from
Betsi Cadwaladr health board. The clerking team contacted the
petitioners on 19 December to ask if they had anything to report on
the current situation of their petition. The petitioner has
submitted further comments, which are included in the paper.
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[50]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Can I just say, Chairman, it is
disappointing that the health board haven’t responded?
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[51]
Mike Hedges: I think it’s disgraceful. I think that
it’s over a year and the health board haven’t
responded. I would make two suggestions: one is that we write to
them again asking them to respond, and if they fail to respond
within the next fortnight, we ask the chair of the health board to
come along and answer questions themselves.
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[52]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, fair enough.
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[53]
Mike Hedges: And if the chair of the health board will not
come along, we’ll ask the health Minister to come along to
explain why the health board is not responding to us.
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[54]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I just think, as a mere curtesy, they
should have responded. But, clearly when,
you know—. This is a petitions committee; people have
actually petitioned and gone about it the right way, so I think
it’s really bad form.
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[55]
Mike Hedges: What if we invite the chair to come along?
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[56]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Yes, definitely.
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[57]
Mike Hedges: We’ve asked them to respond within the next
fortnight. If they don’t respond in a fortnight’s time,
we’ll ask the chair to come along. If the chair doesn’t
come along, we’ll ask the Minister to come along.
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[58]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I would imagine the chair is unaware that
the board haven’t responded, because I would have thought it
would be somebody else within the board that should
respond.
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[59]
Dai Lloyd: Could I just ask which Tywyn hospital this
is?
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[60]
Mike Hedges: You can. I’m sure somebody will be able to
answer it.
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[61]
Dai Lloyd: Is it the one in Meirionnydd? The one I was born in?
Or is a different one, up in Denbighshire?
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[62]
Mr Francis: It’s the one in Meirionnydd.
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[63]
Dai Lloyd: There we are. Right. Okay.
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[64]
Mike Hedges: Which you were born in?
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[65]
Dai Lloyd: Yes. Only about 20 years ago. [Laughter.]
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[66]
Mike Hedges: I’m sure they’ve got a plaque
there. [Laughter.]
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[67]
Dai Lloyd: Well, if they haven’t, they ought
to.
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[68]
Gareth Bennett:
We’d better start a petition about
that.
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[69]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Yes, we’ll start a petition.
Yes.
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[70]
Dai Lloyd: That’s obviously not going to get you anywhere
with Betsi Cadwaladr. [Laughter.]
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[71]
Mr Francis: I think, Chair, the only other thing to add on that
was: because of the timings of this, and the timing of dissolution,
we, as a committee staff, perhaps didn’t chase them in the
way we would normally chase for this kind of letter.
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[72]
Mike Hedges: If we’re writing to a body such as a health
board, they should not need to be chased. They should be responding
to correspondence from us and every other committee of this
Assembly. Much as I might want to hold you responsible, I
don’t. [Laughter.]
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[73]
Mr Francis: Thank you.
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[74]
Mike Hedges: ‘Stop Closure of Consultant-led Maternity Unit
at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd’. This was first considered on 2 June
2015, with 562 signatures. It was last considered by us on 13
December. The petitioner has now submitted further comments, which
are included in the papers to the meeting. The petitioner has
confirmed that because the potential changes that were the subject
of this petition have not happened, they feel that they have
reached a successful conclusion on this issue. So, we close
it.
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[75]
Dai Lloyd: Happy to close it. The petitioner says that, so
actually, we’ll agree.
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[76]
Mike Hedges: A success. ‘Food in Welsh
Hospitals’—a petition from 19 January last year, having
collected 40 signatures.
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[77]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Well,
I await the report that’s due in the spring, but I hope that
report will address some of the issues raised on this petition,
because clearly there are people who go into hospital with various
different needs, dietary needs—gluten-free and things like
that—and the choice on offer is not always available. I do
know of one high-profile case last year—I think this is
actually the petitioner. But they actually pointed this out, and
when you’ve got people in hospital unable to eat because
there’s nothing that they can eat that wouldn’t do them
harm, I think this could be something that we may take forward, I
hope, as a committee. It’s a big issue, food in Welsh
hospitals, and there’s an inconsistency as well.
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[78]
Mike Hedges: I think the other problem is that people deliver food
to the patient, take the food away from the patient, the patient
hasn’t eaten any of it, and that just happens. The Public
Accounts Committee and the Auditor General for Wales have been
looking at this for some time, and I would suggest that we keep on
waiting to see where they’re getting on it. It
is—
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[79]
Dai Lloyd: Excellent suggestion, Chair.
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[80]
Mike Hedges: Sorry; can I just finish? It varies not just from
hospital to hospital, but ward to ward—
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[81]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Ward to ward, yes.
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[82]
Mike Hedges: —including adjacent wards. You could be in ward
X, where somebody makes sure you get fed, and you could be in ward
Y, where they just deliver the food and take it away, and they
don’t even help people sit up in order to eat it. So, it is a
major issue; the auditor general is on it and the Public Accounts
Committee are on it. Can I just suggest that any correspondence,
any public documents created by them, are sent to the
petitioner?
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[83]
Dai Lloyd: Yes.
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[84]
Mike Hedges: Welsh language. ‘Establish a Welsh Language
Champion in our Communities in Wales’. Submitted in February
2016 with 10 signatures, the petition is
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[85]
‘a starting point in the campaign
to establish a Welsh language champion in our communities in Wales.
The role would be a voluntary one, based in the community, and the
champion would be appointed to promote the use of the Welsh
language in Wales and to support developments in our
communities.’
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[86]
Last considered on 1 November, we agreed
to write to the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language
to seek his views. We’ve had a response from the Minister.
The petitioner has also provided further comments. All of the above
correspondence, you’ve received. What do you want to do? The
Minister is supportive of the initiative, and he said he’s
going to write to One Voice Wales, the body representing community
councils, encouraging them to appoint Welsh language
champions.
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09:15
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[87]
The petitioner has welcomed this and has
offered to work voluntarily on behalf of the Government to support
initiatives of this kind. Shall we share the offer made by the
petitioner to support and develop a communities language champion
with the Welsh Government and One Voice Wales?
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[88]
Dai Lloyd: Yes.
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[89]
Mike Hedges: I thank the petitioner for his engagement and close
the petition.
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[90]
Dai Lloyd: Yes.
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[91]
Mike Hedges: ‘Allow Public Recording of Local Government
Meetings’. It was submitted with 186 signatures in March last
year. It asked the Welsh Government to give,
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[92]
‘the people and electors of Wales
the same ability to record their Local Government meetings as their
English counterparts have.’
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[93]
‘The detailed provisions are
contained in the secondary legislation made under the 2000 Act,
that is the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Meetings
and Access to Information) (England) Regulations 2012. The
regulations were enacted in September 2012 and announced on the
Department for Communities and Local Government
website.’
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[94]
It was last considered on 1 November. We
had a response on 30 December. The petitioner was informed that the
petition would be considered, but has not responded. Janet, I know
you want to say something on this.
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[95]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I fully support this and especially given
the money that Lesley Griffiths, the Minister at that time,
gave—£40,000—to each local authority to instigate
this and a lot now have the equipment, but simply do not—.
We’ve just done a piece of work on this and I think there are
more than half not actually recording any meetings. It’s very
difficult when people are working and they want to see how members
have voted or the direction in which any policy is going. I raised
it with the Minister last week. I can see his response and he says
here that he is
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[96]
‘pleased to see that
broadcasting…is now a regular practice in many local
authorities.’
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[97]
There are many local authorities where it
is not a regular practice, so I have some sympathy with the
petitioner. It is disappointing that they haven’t responded
to this. Maybe if we were to write back to them to find out exactly
what they want us to do. I wouldn’t be happy with this
response, knowing it on the ground as I know it.
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[98]
Mike Hedges: We are awaiting a White Paper, aren’t
we?
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[99]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
The Minister said last week that he may
bring forward a Bill that would include recording, and make it
compulsory. I can’t see what the issue is that this is
recorded. Most of what we do in the Assembly and in Parliament is
recorded. I just can’t see what the issue is.
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[100]
Gareth Bennett:
If they’ve been given
money—this £40,000—
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[101]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Yes, they should be doing it.
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[102]
Gareth Bennett:
—there should be some measure
of—
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[103]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I know.
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[104]
Gareth Bennett:
—recourse, I would have thought,
because, otherwise, what the heck is it going to be used
for?
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[105]
Mike Hedges: Shall we write again to the Minister, asking how
they’re going to ensure that they’re recording these
meetings?
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[106]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
And could we send the petitioner a copy,
so that they know that we do take it seriously?
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[107]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
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[108]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Thank you.
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[109]
Mike Hedges: Everything done should have the spotlight of the
public on it.
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[110]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
It just creates tensions with the public,
if they’re kept out of things.
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[111]
Mike Hedges: Next: communities and children and ‘Protect
Families First Funding’, submitted by Whitehead-Ross
Education and UNISON, considered on 13 December, with 24
signatures. It’s calling
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[112]
‘on the National Assembly…to
urge the Welsh Government to protect the Families First budget in
order to protect the most vulnerable families across Wales,
including…Neath Port Talbot’.
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[113]
‘The Cabinet Secretary is expected
to make a formal announcement on the future of the programme in the
autumn and budgetary allocations for each local authority will not
be known until late December 2016. With Communities First coming to
an end in March 2017, this reinforces the need for Families First
to be protected.’
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[114]
The committee considered this on 13
December 2016. The petitioner’s comments have been received,
which state that they are pleased to learn that the budget for
Families First will be maintained for 2017-18.
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[115]
As they’ve achieved what they asked
for—
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[116]
Dai Lloyd: Yes, close. Job done, or whatever phrase you use,
Chair.
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[117]
Mike Hedges: The ‘Penegoes Speed Limit Petition’,
considered on 13 December 2016 with 298 signatures. It calls on
the,
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[118]
‘National Assembly for Wales to
urge the Welsh Government to introduce a 30 miles per hour speed
limit throughout the village of Penegoes (from the Penegoes village
sign entering from Machynlleth, to the other side of the Maesperthi
Caravan Park’s Proposed new entrance) on the A489 road
towards Newtown; and a 40 miles per hour speed limit from
Machynlleth to Penegoes.’
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[119] It was last considered on 13 December and the
petitioner has now submitted the results of a traffic monitoring
scheme carried out by Gwynedd Council, along with his views on the
findings. The results of the traffic monitoring survey show that
the majority of vehicles on the stretch of road monitored were
travelling between 30 mph and 50 mph, with 400 recorded between 60
mph and 80 mph. A 2.2 per cent of vehicles recorded in this
study were travelling at 30 mph or under, as desired by the
petitioner. Shall we share those figures with the Cabinet Secretary
and ask for a response?
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[120] Dai
Lloyd: Sounds good.
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