The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
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Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:00.
The meeting began at 9:00.
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Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a
Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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[1]
Mike Hedges: Can I
welcome everyone to the meeting this morning? I just remind people
that they’re welcome to speak in either English or Welsh.
Headsets are available for translation of Welsh to English. There
is no need to turn off mobile phones or other electronic devices,
but please ensure that any devices are on silent mode. There are no
apologies and I can see that everybody is present.
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09:01
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Deisebau Newydd
New Petitions
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[2]
Mike Hedges: That takes us on to the first item—new
petitions. The first one is ‘Include a Mynachdy and Talybont
Station as Part of the Cardiff Metro Proposal’. This is one
we received two weeks ago, I think, from representatives of the
university. We sent it to the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure
on 13 August. We’ve had a response and there’s a
research brief that people have had an opportunity to read. We are
considering it today and the petitioner has been informed but has
not come back. Points for discussion: we’ve had the Cabinet
Secretary’s response that states that Gabalfa is one of a
number of possible new stations. I’m not an expert on that
part of Cardiff, but my understanding is that Gabalfa and where
they’re talking about are generally the same area. I look to
two experts on Cardiff to—
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[3]
Gareth Bennett: Yes. Mynachdy and Gabalfa are at least
adjoining—[Inaudible.]—part of Gabalfa, yes.
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[4]
Mike Hedges: We’ve not had a new station for some
time. We can perhaps write back to the petitioners telling them
that the proposal is one for Gabalfa and ask them if that meets
their need. Just a personal view—and I’m sure people
from Cardiff know Cardiff better than I do—but for the metro
to work properly, you need lots of stations, but you don’t
need too many too close together, otherwise it will be stopping all
the time. So, it’s a balance. I would hope that they will
think Gabalfa meets the balance. Shall we write to them and ask
them that? Yes.
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[5]
The second one is ‘Free Train Transport for school pupils
with Arriva Trains Wales’. We received that petition, again,
a couple of weeks ago, and it effects mainly children—. The
petitioners have children who attend a Treorchy school and use
Arriva Trains to get there. We’ve had a response from the
Minister who says it’s Arriva Trains’s decision. Shall
we write to Arriva Trains asking them?
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[6]
Neil McEvoy: Yes.
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[7]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Apparently—and I stand to be
corrected by somebody, which I will—Arriva Trains used to
allow it and now they don’t. That’s what the petitioner
tells us. So, shall we go back to them?
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09:03
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Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am
Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions
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[8]
Mike Hedges: Updates on previous petitions: ‘A Fair
Deal for Forest Rallying in Wales’. This we had on 12 July,
with 5,246 signatures.
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[9]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I think I’d better declare an
interest, because I’ve signed that.
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[10]
Mike Hedges: Thank you. That’s noted. I understand that the
Motor Sports Association and Natural Resources Wales have reached
an agreement and the petitioner has requested that the committee
formally closes the petition. Shall we offer our congratulations to
the petitioners on the successful outcome of their campaign and
also the fact that submitting this petition probably played a part
in that?
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[11]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Chair, I was going to say the same,
really, because I know when this first came on the horizon, there
was a lot of concern, because the rallying is really good for
tourism, and there were lots of conflicting emotions on this. I
really do think that bringing it to the Petitions Committee has
helped their cause, and I’m glad about that.
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[12]
Mike Hedges: Yes. I think we’ve all go rallyers in our
constituencies and our regions. I’m sure they came to see all
of us; I certainly had a deputation come to see me regarding it. A lot of Wales is
suitable for rallying. Okay, we’ll chalk that up as a
success.
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[13]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, definitely.
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[14]
Mike Hedges: ‘Review of Scalloping in Cardigan
Bay’: we had this petition on 12 July. I’m sure
everybody’s seen it, but a decision was published by the
Cabinet Secretary yesterday. The Government have proceeded in
introducing a flexible permit scheme for scallop fishing. Shall we
send the Minister’s response to the petitioners and ask them
for their comments?
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[15]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I do have concerns about this. I think
marine conservation in the scheme of things, with everything
that’s going on at the moment, is very much low down on the
political agenda. I know there are a lot of concerns about this. I
have raised previously with the Minister, about marine permit
licences and enforcement, how we enforce when abuse takes place. In
terms of marine environment, I do have concerns about this. I
understand that there was a statement yesterday, but I think this
is one I’d like to see staying open until we’ve tested
it a little more.
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[16]
Neil McEvoy: I’d echo that, really. Reading the
Minister’s response, I would question if he knows what
he’s talking about, really, to be frank. I think we should
invite him to the committee. I’d love to ask him a few
questions about this.
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[17]
Janet Finch-Saunders: It’s Lesley now, isn’t
it?
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[18]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Shall we ask the petitioners first for
their comments? Then, if the petitioners are unhappy, and if we so
desire, we’ll invite the Minister and the petitioners
along.
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[19]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, I’d support that.
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[20]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Happy with that? ‘Abuse of casual
contracts in Further Education’: this was submitted on 4 June
2013. The petitioner has expressed satisfaction with the Minister
for Public Services’ statement in July 2015 on the guidance
on using non-guaranteed hours arrangements. I suggest we close the
petition and again provide a copy of the guidance to the
petitioner.
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[21]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Well, I think the response from Briony
Knibbs is asking that the committee check that the guidelines
referred to at the end of the statement have been drawn up, because
that was July 2015, wasn’t it, when this came back?
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[22]
Mr Francis: Yes, they were published in September of this
year. So, there was quite a delay from the statement made by the
Minister in the last Assembly, but the Public Services Staff
Commission published those guidelines in September.
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[23]
Mike Hedges: So, if we send those to the petitioner, and
unless the petitioner comes back with any further comments,
we’ll close it. If they come back with further comments, then
we’ll decide how to take it forward.
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[24]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes. There’s some merit in this,
of course, because how many times have we sat in Plenary decrying
zero-hours contracts? Certainly, I don’t think we should have
a sector where it’s considered okay to use them. So, I think,
you know, again, they’ve come to the right place with the
petition and I hope that it does allow some weight to be given to
their argument.
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[25]
Mike Hedges: Okay. We’ll ask for comments from them to
see if they’re happy with the arrangements published by the
Public Services Staff Commission.
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[26]
‘Establish a Welsh Language Champion in our Communities in
Wales’: it was submitted on 23 February 2016—
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[27]
Janet Finch-Saunders: We’ve got a Welsh Language
Commissioner, haven’t we?
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[28]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
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[29]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I think, really, for me, I’d
like to see her role, sort of, well supported, both in legislation
and resources. I’m not really sure we need champions. I
consider her, the Welsh Language Commissioner, to be the champion
of the language. You know, she’s got a function
there—she just needs the support of us, really.
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[30]
Mike Hedges: Well, I think that we ought to write to the
Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to seek his views
on progressing this. We may want to contact the Welsh Language
Commissioner, depending on what reply we get from him. I think
he’s got to be our first port of call, hasn’t he? Okay.
Happy with that?
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[31]
‘School Times an Hour Later’: we considered it on 13
September and we’ve written Cabinet Secretary for Education
to ask if she will consider issuing guidance to local authorities
and whether the Welsh Government would support further research.
We’ve had a response from the Cabinet Secretary. The
petitioner was informed that the petition would be considered by
the committee, but had not responded when papers to the committee
were being finalised, and has still not responded. Have we taken it
as far as we can? At the moment, it’s a decision on what time
schools start and stop, but it’s a decision, effectively, for
each school’s governing body.
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[32]
Gareth Bennett: I think it’s an interesting proposal
because an awful lot of traffic problems in Cardiff, and doubtless
other places, are caused by the school run, and from a traffic
point of view, it’s worthy of consideration. The petitioner
is talking about it from an educational point of view, but
it’s not only an educational issue. I think it’s worth
exploring as far as we can.
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[33]
Mike Hedges: The question is, of course, that if schools
started at 10 o’clock, would the rush be until 10
o’clock because people are still taking their children to
school? But it would mean that people would be looking to start
work later and it would cause certain problems to individuals. A
lot of people like getting their children to breakfast club at 8.30
a.m. so that they can get to work by 9 o’clock.
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[34]
Gareth Bennett: Is there not a case that some people are
driving to work and they’re not involved in schools runs at
the same time as people who are involved in school runs?
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[35]
Mike Hedges: Yes. If we don’t say that we’ve
taken it as far as we can, what do you want to do? Do you want to
write to the Minister responsible for transport, asking whether a
change would be beneficial, or do we wish to note it?
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[36]
Gareth Bennett: I would suggest, maybe, if we could involve
the transport Minister—I think that would be Ken Skates,
wouldn’t it?
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[37]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
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[38]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Each school can do it now under
the—. So—
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[39]
Gareth Bennett: Each school can change it.
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[40]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes. It just takes the will and the
governors to decide to take that forward.
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[41]
Mike Hedges: Schools all start at different times, but most
of them start sometime between 8.40 a.m. and 9 o’clock, but
they all start at different times. But it’s a school
governing body decision what time they start. There has
historically been a tendency to start around about 9 o’clock,
or slightly before 9 o’clock for most schools, but it’s
a decision of the school and governing body. But we could ask
the—
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[42]
Janet Finch-Saunders: This is a really detailed response
from Kirsty Williams, the Cabinet Secretary, and, to be honest, I
think there are other things, aren’t there, that are going
forward now with education? And I think, as she has said, wait
until the project—the conclusions.
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[43]
Mike Hedges: Okay. So, shall we just wait for the response
at the moment, and hold it until we get any further response?
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[44]
Mr Francis: From the petitioner.
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[45]
Mike Hedges: From the petitioner, yes. ‘Say NO to
Dyfed’—
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[46]
Janet Finch-Saunders: It’s irrelevant this now.
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[47]
Mike Hedges: This has been overtaken by events. I think we
should close the petition. This has been overtaken—the idea
of giant councils around Wales has disappeared. Okay.
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[48]
The next one—‘Allow Public Recording of Local
Government Meetings’. This is from—. This was first
considered on 8 March. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local
Government’s statement on local government reform on 4
October indicated the Government is reconsidering the content of
the previous draft local government Bill. The committee could
therefore write to the Cabinet Secretary asking if and how he
intends to progress the planned provision to make it compulsory for
local authorities to broadcast meetings.
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[49]
Janet Finch-Saunders: You know I’d support this,
because anything we can do to open up the doors of local government
is to be applauded, really. I mean, despite the Government
providing £40,000 for a local authority, a lot have been very
selective about the meetings that they’re choosing to record.
And I think true open, transparent democracy is when there is a
facility—. Everything we do is under the public gaze, and I
can’t see why that doesn’t apply to local authorities.
I would support this.
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[50]
Mike Hedges: So, we’ll write to the Cabinet Secretary
to ask how he intends to address the planned provision to make it
compulsory for local authorities to broadcast meetings. Yes.
Okay.
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09:15
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[51]
‘Save Cardiff Coal Exchange’—this goes back to
March 2014. It was last considered by us on 11 October. We await
the views of the petitioner on the response received from the
Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure and the leader of
Cardiff council. The petitioner submitted further comments,
which are in our papers. The petitioner
wants a public inquiry into the Coal Exchange development. A letter
received from the leader of Cardiff council updates the committee
on progress since planning permission was granted for the change of
use of the building to a hotel in July 2016. A number of listed
building consent applications have been submitted to Cadw for their
consideration. The developers are producing a conservation plan for
the building. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure
states this is a matter for Cardiff council, and it would be
inappropriate for the Welsh Government to comment
further.
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[52]
In light of this, the committee could
decide to close the petition, given that it has now been open for a
considerable time, and that the future of the building seems to be
primarily a matter for Cardiff council, or we could await the
outcome of the application currently with Cadw, and the
developers’ conservation plan, and the subsequent views of
the petitioner, before deciding on further action. I think that it
would be easier if we await the outcomes of the applications. But I
would have thought—and there’s two people from Cardiff
here, so I know I’m on difficult ground—that turning
the Coal Exchange into a hotel is probably the best possible
outcome for that building.
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[53]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
And they’re talking about soft
stripping, aren’t they, the outside of it and everything, and
the conservation report? For me, it reads as though they are taking
the conservation issues quite seriously indeed, because the report
of—
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[54]
Mike Hedges: So, if we wait until the applications are carried
out, and the conservation plan, and, when we get those, we’ll
speak to the petitioner again and then decide what to do. But it
does look as if we’re making progress. I mean, there was
concern, genuine concern, amongst a number of people, not just the
petitioner, that the Cardiff Coal Exchange was going to be left
until it fell down, and that was a concern to very many people. And
I don’t exclude myself from the very many people who are
concerned about a major building in Wales just being left to fall
down. So, this does seem to be progress, so we’ll wait to see
what happens with the applications.
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[55]
The next one—‘Develop Tynton
Farm as a Visitor and Information Centre’. This was last
considered on 19 January—await the petitioner’s view on
the response received from the Minister for Economy, Science and
Transport. The petitioner has since submitted further comments,
which are included in the papers. In light of the
petitioner’s view on the opportunity to be achieved—the
aim of the petition has now been lost and the committee could close
the petition. Well, if the petitioner doesn’t think we can
take it any further, I don’t see how we can. So, shall we
close it, and thank the petitioner for taking the trouble to
contact us? Good.
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[56]
‘Rename Cardiff Int. Airport to
Princess Diana International Airport’—we discussed this
on 13 September. We’ve had a response from Cardiff Airport,
making it clear that their advice to the Welsh Government is to
retain the name Cardiff Airport. In light of this, the committee
may have taken the petition as far as they can and should consider
closing it. It does come down to—. Shall we close the
petition?
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[57]
Neil McEvoy: Yes.
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[58]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Thank you very much.
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09:18
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Cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r
Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o
weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog
17.42(vi).
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that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
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Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion
moved.
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[59]
Mike Hedges: Could I
move, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public
from the meeting for the following business? Is that agreed?
Yes.
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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
09:18.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:18.
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