Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

28/06/2017

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

Cynnwys
Contents

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4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

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5....... Sesiwn Graffu Gyffredinol gyda’r Arglwydd Tony Hall, Cyfarwyddwr y BBC
General Scrutiny Session with Lord Tony Hall, Director of the BBC

55..... Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

57..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Hannah Blythyn Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Neil Hamilton Bywgraffiad|Biography	UKIP Cymru UKIP Wales
Bethan Jenkins Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)
Dai Lloyd Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Jeremy Miles Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Nick Ramsay Bywgraffiad|Biography	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (yn dirprwyo ar ran Suzy Davies) Welsh Conservatives (substitute for Suzy Davies)
Lee Waters Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Rhodri Talfan Davies	Cyfarwyddwr, BBC Cymru Wales Director, BBC Cymru Wales
Yr Arglwydd / Lord Tony Hall	Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y BBC Director-General, BBC
Ken McQuarrie	Cyfarwyddwr y Gwledydd a'r Rhanbarthau, y BBC Director Nations and Regions, BBC
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Steve George	Clerc Clerk
Lowri Harries	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Robin Wilkinson	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:00. The meeting began at 10:00.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
[1] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud i mewn i’r cyfarfod ffurfiol, ac eitem 1 yw’r cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Croeso i aelodau’r pwyllgor a’r tystion yma heddiw. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff, ond ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar sianel 1, a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Peidiwch â chyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A oes gan Aelodau unrhyw fuddiant i’w ddatgan? Na. Ymddiheuriadau gan Dawn Bowden, a hefyd ymddiheuriadau gan Suzy Davies. Mae Nick Ramsay wedi ymuno â’r pwyllgor yn lle Suzy Davies. Felly, croeso, Nick.		Bethan Jenkins: We’re moving into the formal meeting, and the first item is introductions, apologies and substitutions. Welcome to members of the committee and the witnesses. In the event of a fire alarm, everyone should leave the room by the fire exits and follow instructions from the ushers and staff. An alarm is not scheduled for today. Everyone should turn their mobile phones to silent. The National Assembly for Wales operates bilingually. Headphones are available for simultaneous translation and to amplify sound for people who are hard of hearing. The simultaneous translation is available on channel 1, and sound amplification on channel 0. Do not touch any of the buttons on the microphones as this can disrupt the system, and please ensure that the red light is on before speaking. Do Members have any interests to declare? No. We have apologies from Dawn Bowden, and apologies from Suzy Davies. Nick Ramsay has joined the committee this morning instead of Suzy. Welcome, Nick.
10:01
Sesiwn Graffu Gyffredinol gyda’r Arglwydd Tony Hall, Cyfarwyddwr y BBC General Scrutiny Session with Lord Tony Hall, Director of the BBC
[2] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem 2, sef sesiwn graffu gyffredinol gyda’r Arglwydd Tony Hall, cyfarwyddwr y BBC. A chroeso i’r Arglwydd Hall, Ken McQuarrie, cyfarwyddwr y gwledydd a’r rhanbarthau, y BBC, a hefyd i Rhodri Talfan Davies, cyfarwyddwr BBC Cymru Wales. Rydym ni yn gwerthfawrogi eich amser yma heddiw. Roeddem yn trafod, cyn i’r pwyllgor fynd yn gyhoeddus, ac yn meddwl y dylem ni eich cael chi yma bob wythnos fel ein bod ni’n gallu cael mwy o arian i’r BBC yma yng Nghymru. [Chwerthin.] Ond diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod.		Bethan Jenkins: We’re now moving on to item 2, which is the general scrutiny session with Lord Tony Hall, director of the BBC. And welcome to Lord Hall, Ken McQuarrie, director nations and regions, BBC, and also Rhodri Talfan Davies, director of BBC Cymru Wales. We do appreciate your time here today. We were discussing, before the committee went public, and were thinking that we should have you here every week so that we could have more money for the BBC here in Wales. [Laughter.] But thank you very much for attending today.
[3] Rydym ni eisiau dweud hefyd ein bod ni yn arloesol yma, fel pwyllgor, ac rydym ni hefyd ar Facebook Live am y tro cyntaf erioed. Felly, rwy’n gobeithio y byddwn ni’n gallu gweld mwy o hyn yn digwydd yn y dyfodol, gyda’r pwyllgor cyfathrebu ar flaen y gad.		We also want to say that we are being pioneering and innovative here, as a committee, today. We’re on Facebook Live for the first time ever. So, I hope that we can see more of this happening in the future, with the communications committee at the forefront.
[4] Rydym ni’n ymwybodol, felly, fel yr wyf i wedi’i ddweud, fod yna ddatganiad wedi cael ei wneud gan y BBC. Rydym ni’n hapus i chi ddweud rhywbeth yn fras ynglŷn â hynny. Ond wedyn, wrth gwrs, fel yr ydych wedi bod yma o’r blaen, fe fydd yna lot fawr o gwestiynau gan Aelodau. Felly, os medrwch chi wneud datganiad bras, wedyn gallwn ni fynd i mewn i’r cwestiynau—y prif gwestiynau.		We’re aware, as I’ve already said, that a statement has been made by the BBC. We’re happy for you to say something in general about that. But then, of course, as you know from being here before, there will be many questions from Members. So, if you could make a general statement, then we’ll go straight into the main questions. Thank you.
[5] Lord Hall: Thank you very much. Bore da. It’s good to be back again, on Facebook Live as well as with you. So, that’s wonderful. Since we were all last here—or I was here, anyway—a lot has happened, in those eight months. Thank you for the chance just to say a few words about it. I shall be brief. But we’ve announced the biggest reinvestment package in BBC Wales in a generation, and I’m sure you will want to ask lots of questions about that. But I’m excited by the fact we’re doubling our investment in English language programming for Wales—something that I mentioned in my first speech, actually, as director general, that we wanted to do—and it’s an additional 130 hours. My hope is that the quality of that extra programming will make the network, and we want to make sure that half of these additional hours will be shown on the BBC’s network as well. So, not only is that a boost for Wales, but I think it’s also a boost for the UK—our UK-wide audiences as well. This is already delivering. If you look at the fact that three major dramas are currently shooting in Wales, next year, 2018, will see the largest ever slate of English language tv drama set in Wales. So, some 16 hours, compared to an average of three at the moment. What is, I think, really important on this is that that investment is bringing in another £10 million of investment as well. There’s a real multiplier effect here. The Welsh Government, I think, has been really good in helping some of these three dramas, but others as well. So, I think this is a kind of really important statement about the creativity of Wales.
[6] We’re already discussing with some brilliant writers about new comedy opportunities for Wales and the network, and that’s something we haven’t done for a very long time, and I’m particularly pleased that His Dark Materials, the Philip Pullman novels, are being set here too and will be produced from here as well. So, that’s, I think, really big for us. I’m also excited about what Rhodri has been announcing over the last little while, which is a £2 million investment to strengthen Welsh journalism. Rhodri will, no doubt, talk more about that as the session unfolds. But that’s going to not only create an extra 25 posts, but also, I think it’s kind of honouring our commitment to say, ‘What the BBC does journalistically, news and current affairs in Wales, plays a really important role.’ I’m also delighted that we did an experiment that is now becoming firm, which is this extra programme, Radio Cymru 2, in the morning. I think that’s the kind of innovation I also want for our audiences, and I’m really pleased we’re doing that.
[7] We’re also committing to making BBC Wales a diverse employer. We’ve got over 250 new training opportunities. Personally, I believe in this very strongly. Rhodri has been blazing a path, on behalf of the whole BBC, in that. I think there are some really interesting things going on there. I’m very glad also that Ken MacQuarrie, director of nations and regions could be here to talk about the overall mission we have for our nations.
[8] The additional investments we have made in Wales, and also in Scotland and Northern Ireland, are the only additional commitments we have made through our savings programme to more funding. As you know, the BBC overall has a flat funding settlement for the next five years. These are, so far, the only commitments we’ve made, and that’s because I believe very strongly in what we’re trying to do within nations and regions. Enough from me; it’s just very good to be back here. Thank you.
[9] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cyflwyniad hynny. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn ynglŷn â’r arian. Wrth gwrs, roedd yr £8.5 miliwn wedi cael ei ddatgan yn gynharach yn y flwyddyn. A allwch chi esbonio sut wnaethoch chi ddod at y ffigwr hynny, a hefyd ychwanegu’r £2 filiwn a ddaeth allan yr wythnos yma, ar sail y ffaith, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni’n deall bod £19 miliwn wedi cael ei roi i sianel newydd yn yr Alban? Sut rydych chi wedi dod at y penderfyniad hynny, fel ein bod ni’n gallu deall hynny fel pwyllgor?		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much for that introduction. I just wanted to ask about the funding. Of course, that £8.5 million was announced earlier in the year. Can you explain how you came to that figure, and also adding the £2 million that came out this week, on the basis, of course, that we understand that £19 million has been given to a new channel in Scotland? How have you come to that decision, so that we can understand that as a committee?
[10] Lord Hall: So, Rhodri, myself and the executive team spent a lot of time working through the very different needs of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. You know better than anybody else, the needs are very, very different. What we saw in Wales was the following: consumption of BBC television and BBC radio in Wales is higher than in any other part of the UK. I mean, from our point of view, that’s really impressive. We’re doing, to that extent, a good job. And, actually, the general impression of the BBC is the highest of the three nations of Northern Ireland; Scotland and Wales.
[11] Rhodri—and he can talk more about this—did extensive research into the news and current affairs, and whether there was a desire for a Scottish six or a Welsh six, if you see what I mean, which, as you know, in Scotland, that’s been a really key, kind of, leitmotif through a lot of the things they’ve been arguing with us. We haven’t seen that. We did see issues around the reach of our services. So, particularly, the changes we’ve made to the availability of Radio Wales fits into that. We also wanted to ensure that we were building up the English language programming on BBC One Wales. That seemed to me and Rhodri to be the right answer to the Welsh issue, which is, ‘How can we do more in the English language to the whole of Wales?’. BBC One Wales, because it’s doing so well, seems the best route to that, rather than going down the route of a channel as we have done in Scotland. On news, the issues were, ‘How can we build the audience to news and current affairs in Wales, not just with all audiences, but particularly with younger audiences?’ That’s been one of the spines of the announcements that Rhodri’s been making over the last week.
[12] The other thing for Wales we determined, quite apart from our targets for network supply and building on what Roath Lock is doing very well, was also to say, ‘By the way, we need a new building’, because—I think we’ve talked about this before—the existing buildings in Llandaff are way past their sell-by date. So, it’s great to come off the train and right ahead of you there is a fantastic building. So, those are the things we’re determined to do for Wales.
[13] Scotland is different, because what the arguments there, which we’ve been having for 10, 15 years, have been about is: could the BBC or some other people—STV maybe, and they are doing a channel—do a channel that would give vent to both news and current affairs, but other genres that Scotland feels are important, rather than going down the BBC One route, which Wales have been doing? And that’s partly to do with the success, as I said, of BBC One Wales. Once you get into a channel, you’re talking about a linear channel, you’re talking about a bigger investment to make a channel work. That’s why we put more into Scotland in terms of the channel than we did into Wales, where we said the need is different. I hope—. That’s rather long, but I hope that explains.
[14] Bethan Jenkins: I’d like to hear from Rhodri Talfan Davies on that, then, because obviously you’ve said that there’s been extensive research, and obviously we’re coming at it from a basis of equity and equality, so I’d like to understand fully why—. I’m not saying that we are lobbying for a new channel, but we’re looking at the funding, and it seems quite different in relation to—.
[15] Mr Davies: Completely, yes. I suppose you start with what’s the right thing to do, and then you get to the funding afterwards, and I think that we’ve had some experience in Wales of creating separate, stand-alone services. Ten years ago, we trialled a service on the digital channel—the BBC Two digital channel—called BBC 2W. My view, and it was certainly evidenced in the qualitative audience research we did in three centres across Wales, was that the demand for a separate stand-alone television service for Wales, in the broadcast base, isn’t there. They love BBC One and BBC Two, and they love seeing Wales reflected on the two biggest channels that they watch. So, I think we were very much seeing, in terms of audience demand, absolutely they wanted to see better portrayal of Wales, they wanted to see a breadth of output, they wanted to see us back in genre that we haven’t been sufficiently in over recent years, but they wanted to see those on the channels that they are drawn to, and I think that is different to Scotland. Kenny can talk to this as well, but the demand in Scotland over 10, 15 years was for something separate and stand-alone. That’s not the same in Wales. There’s no judgment in that; they are two different populations with two different sets of demands.
[16] In terms of where we focus the funding discussion for television, it was how could we secure investment that would allow us to really broaden dramatically the breadth of what we were doing—particularly in entertainment. BBC Wales, I think, is trusted and valued in terms of its journalism. There's more we can do, and we’ve talked about that in recent days, but that entertainment part of the BBC mission I think had weakened over recent years. And that’s why—. The fact that we can get three dramas on air next year, the fact we’ve got two comedies in the pipeline: these are types of conversations with some of the biggest talents in Wales that we just haven’t been able to have in recent years, so I think we will see a big impact on screen, but, in terms of the quantum of the cash, if you like, I do think a channel drives a different discussion, because you have to fill a channel. With our strategy, we want to put big, landmark pieces on BBC One and BBC Two, but we don’t have the worry of filling, or the challenge of filling, a sustaining service behind it.
[17] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi’n meddwl—?Y cwestiwn olaf gen i: a ydych chi’n meddwl bod yr arian hwnnw yn ddigonol? A ydych chi, fel BBC Cymru, wedi bod yn gofyn am fwy, yn hynny o beth, achos mae’r swm yn—? Rwy’n deall ei bod hi’n sianel newydd, ond mae’r swm yn wahanol iawn rhwng Cymru a’r Alban, ac felly rwy jest eisiau clywed a ydych chi’n meddwl bod yr arian yna yn ddigonol ar gyfer gwneud yr hyn rydych chi eisiau ei wneud fel BBC Cymru.		Bethan Jenkins: Do you think—? The final question from me: do you think that funding is sufficient? Were you, as BBC Wales, asking for more money in that sense, because the sum is—? I understand that it’s a new channel, but the sum is very different between Wales and Scotland, so I just wanted to hear, therefore, whether you thought that funding was sufficient to do what you wanted to do as BBC Cymru Wales.
[18] Mr Davies: Rwy’n deall hynny. Yn sicr, buasai unrhyw gyfarwyddwr BBC Cymru yn dweud ei bod nhw wedi dadlau’r achos a bod uchelgais BBC Cymru yn fwy na’r arian sydd ar gael, ac rydw i’n siŵr bod pob rhan o’r BBC yn cael yr un math o sgwrs gyda’r cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol, ond beth sy’n glir iawn i fi yw bod yr £8.5 miliwn honno yn mynd i ganiatáu i ni ddatblygu’r gwasanaeth mewn ffordd sylweddol iawn, ac i feysydd nad yw BBC Cymru wedi bod ynddyn nhw am gyfnod hir.		Mr Davies: I understand that. Certainly, any director of BBC Wales would say that the BBC Cymru ambition is greater than the funding available, and I’m sure that every director has the same conversation with the director general, but what is clear to me is that that £8.5 million will enable us to develop the service in a significant way, extending into areas that BBC Cymru hasn’t been to for a long time.
[19] Bethan Jenkins: Ac mae £2 filiwn yna—. Jest yn fras, mae’r £2 filiwn yna wedi dod o le—pa ffynhonnell?		Bethan Jenkins: And that £2 million—. Just roughly, that £2 million has come from what source?
[20] Mr Davies: Ocê. So, mae’r £8.5 miliwn yn bennaf ynghlwm â datblygiadau teledu a llwyfannau cymdeithasol: y syniad yma o ‘the social’. Ac wedyn mae’r £2 filiwn o fuddsoddiad i gynnwys newyddiadurol, yn bennaf, a pheth datblygiadau radio. Mae hynny yn arian rŷm ni wedi ei ryddhau o fewn cyllideb BBC Cymru.		Mr Davies: Okay. So, the £8.5 million is primarily linked to the development of television platforms: the idea of the social. And then the £2 million investment is for journalism content, primarily, and some radio development. That is funding that we have liberated, if you like, from the BBC Cymru budget.
[21] Bethan Jenkins: Felly, beth na fydd yn cael ei ariannu ar gyfer—?		Bethan Jenkins: So, what won’t be financed for—?
[22] Mr Davies: Wel, fel y byddech chi’n ei ddisgwyl, dros y blynyddoedd, ac roedd yna ymgyrch arbedion dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf o’r enw Delivering Quality First, DQF—. Fe aethom ni ymhellach nag oedd angen i gyrraedd y targed a felly rhyddhau £2 filiwn sy’n caniatáu inni roi arian ychwanegol i mewn i newyddiaduriaeth.		Mr Davies: Well, as you would expect, over the years, and there was a savings drive over the past five years called Delivering Quality First—. We went further, or exceeded the target and then have released £2 million, which enables us to give additional money to journalism.
10:15
[23] Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.
[24] Lee Waters: Yes. Thank you. I very warmly welcome the extra investment and I recognise it partly delivers on the commitment you made, and the recognition you made, of need. You used the phrase, Lord Hall, that Scotland is ‘different’, and it certainly is different. We had evidence from the director of policy of Ofcom, who pointed out, in her words, that the amount you’re investing in Scotland is ‘way above’ the percentage quota that Ofcom have set. The very nice phrase that Ofcom have come up with is that Scotland is ‘over-indexed’, which is a very wonky way of saying they get more cash than they deserve. I understand Rhodri Talfan Davies’s point is that you’ve created a rod for your own back in creating a channel you now have to fill, but Ofcom’s view—and I have the transcript here—is that the ‘trickiest problem’ the BBC will have is Scotland,
[25] ‘because it’s so over-indexed. To bring down Scotland will be politically tricky, but, to satisfy the English regions quota, they will have to.’
[26] So, how are you going to get around this, and why is it that Scotland is so heavily endowed?
[27] Lord Hall: I have no idea what she means by that, to be quite honest with you. The issue with Scotland was that we were not making our network supply target. We were not delivering what—. You know the proportions; for Scotland, we weren’t hitting that. So, that’s why we said we are recommitting to make sure we hit our 8 per cent target for Scotland. Now, Wales, you constantly oversupply, as you know. This is great. The fact that you are always at least one point over the 5 per cent that is our target is utterly brilliant, and I think what Rhodri’s and what we’re committing to here is you’re going to be well over your targets for many years to come. That’s good, but I simply don’t recognise what she’s on about there, because actually we are not hitting the target we should be for Scotland.
[28] Lee Waters: We’re talking about spend. I’m not sure we can quite so lightly set aside the views of your new regulator that you are spending more than you need to in Scotland.
[29] Lord Hall: No, it’s just I—. It is our new regulator, so I say what I’m saying with due respect to Ofcom—we have a very good relationship—but I don’t understand the point that she’s trying to make there. We are committed to hitting our 8:5:3 targets for spend in the nations of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. We were lower than we should be—and I’ve had to answer for that—in Scotland in the last year, and we’re recommitting to making sure we get to that target. So, the over-indexation I just don’t understand. Can I go back? What I’m after is a very vibrant creative economy in which we play our part in Scotland but also in Wales, and I’m really pleased that Wales, year after year after year, through the success of Roath Lock, to use her phrase, over-indexes against the rest of the UK. I think that’s great.
[30] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Neil Hamilton.
[31] Neil Hamilton: Well, that fits neatly into my question, because I was going to start by saying that, on that basis, Wales is over-indexed as well, because last year we got 7.1 per cent of your network spend, £59.2 million—on a pure population basis it would be 4.9 per cent—which we are very pleased with, obviously. It would be a ridiculous way to determine your network spend to have it just on the basis of a per capita calculation. But you started off in an extremely positive way, which we’re all very pleased to hear. Ofcom are proposing that there should be a minimum spend of 5 per cent. We have been well above that now for some time. What assurance can you give us that we won’t be whittled down to the Ofcom—? And I know you just said that, because of the success of Roath Lock, there is no danger of this in the short or the medium term, but, ultimately, I suppose it depends upon the popularity of the productions that we make in Wales.
[32] Lord Hall: Yes. I think that’s right, Mr Hamilton. I think, two things: one is next week we will be publishing our annual plan and you’ll see this is what Ofcom asks us to do, and you’ll see in there the commitment to the nations and also to England is very, very clear. We have no plans to go back on these network targets. Indeed, I want to increase them. So, my view is that what you and others have been lobbying for and saying we want to build is absolutely there and enshrined in the BBC going forward. But you also made another really interesting point. The difficulty with quotas, and I’m not for one moment resiling from those quotas we’ve got, because I think they’re really important, is—. The quotas are there to encourage creativity, and I think what Roath Lock has been doing in both the series that they’re doing but also the one-off dramas, and what Wales has now been doing, and you can see that in the 16 hours that we’re committing to in 2018, is showing that, creatively, Wales can respond and do things that are going to have an impact on the rest of the UK. I think whereas quotas are an important part of the ecology, I want to get to the point where, actually, creatively, we’re building on what Roath Lock is doing, which is firing on all cylinders.
[33] Mr Davies: May I just add to that? I think the other development, and I think we’ve seen this more and more over the last two or three years, is diversifying the supply in Wales. So, the three big dramas next year, the ones set in Wales, are through three independents, two of which are indigenous here to Wales. I think that’s been—and I think we’ve talked before about this—a very striking development in the drama story. A story that started very much as an in-house BBC Wales, BBC Studios, story is increasingly a story about sectoral growth well beyond the BBC, and BBC Wales as a commissioner has a big part to play in that.
[34] Neil Hamilton: So, as a commissioner, you could possibly create more work in Wales than doing everything in-house as you have done up until now.
[35] Lord Hall: Yes. Look, we want in-house, BBC Studios, to thrive. Equally, the fact that we now have a drama commissioner for Wales in Wales I think is a really important development. Last time, we were saying that’s going to happen; it’s now happened. I think the fact that the Writers Room for Wales has happened and is encouraging new talent, new writing—all these things are really important. That’s all to encourage more from what we’ve got that is good here. I feel very confident about the future of Roath Lock and the creative economy in Wales as far as tv production is concerned.
[36] Neil Hamilton: I suppose the flipside of my question, in relation to Scotland, as you’re now increasing your spend in Scotland, they’ve been—perhaps underperforming is the wrong word—but under-indexing, then, shall we say? Is your increased spend there also on the basis of the quality of their production or is this something that is being done to fulfil a quota?
[37] Lord Hall: I think there’s an issue to do with hours at Ofcom, which we may want to come on to—I don’t know—later on. My concern is always that we’re not simply filling slots, we’re doing things that, creatively, are exciting, are edgy, are pushing boundaries. Now, Roath Lock, or rather Wales, has absolutely done that. The fact that we’re going to do the Philip Pullman trilogy here is absolutely showing that. Now, that’s what I think we all want. We want things that are really going to make a big splash and do exciting things, not just say, ‘Oh well, we’re giving you that just to fill a slot.’ I think there are some issues I’ve got, again, with our new regulator. So, I’m—you know, with respect, I think they’ve got one or two things not quite right in terms of helping the creative ecologies in the nations.
[38] Mr Davies: Again, forgive me, if I could just add on that, because I do have a particular concern here, I think that the growth of the drama sector in Wales—. If we were measuring hours rather investment, I think that would have significantly curtailed the opportunity. The fact that we’ve built a reputation and a sector in the highest spending or the highest value genre wouldn’t have been possible if what we were measuring were hour inputs rather than investment.
[39] Lord Hall: Could I just amplify on this point? I don’t know whether you want to ask about it, but it’s Ofcom and quotas and hours—.
[40] Bethan Jenkins: If you want.
[41] Lord Hall: So, the overall framework for the BBC—. Ofcom have spend in nations targets and they also have spend in hours. We are trying to persuade them—and any help would be gratefully received—that actually they should concentrate on value rather than hours. To amplify what Rhodri was saying, my concern is, if you have quotas on hours as well as value, that what broadcasters do, inevitably, is to say, ‘We need to fill the hours’, in exactly the way Mr Hamilton is suggesting, and therefore you go for lower cost programmes to fill up the hours, as opposed to what we’ll be doing in Wales and Northern Ireland, which is saying, ‘No, no, no. This is all about high-value, high-impact dramas and other sorts of programmes’.
[42] So, if you look at drama spend in Wales, 76 per cent of the drama spend’s in Wales, but only 20 per cent of the hours. Now, the impact of that 76 per cent that is the percentage of the spend on drama is enormous. We all kind of know that, and I think, if Ofcom carry on saying, ‘Well, it’s also got to be about hours’, I think that could, in the end, unpick all the good work that we’re doing at Roath Lock and in Northern Ireland and elsewhere too.
[43] Bethan Jenkins: Are you finished, Neil? Oh, go on.
[44] Mr McQuarrie: I just wanted to say, first of all, thank you to you and the committee for the invitation today. I’m delighted to be here. On the question of the spend, there’s something I just wanted to add to that: that, in my experience, and as far as I can recall, this is the most exciting opportunity for Wales and for the nations in terms of how we invest this money. It has a tremendous potential. I’m delighted that we’ve been able to invest, in a short period of time, in all of the three nations at a point where the rest of the BBC is effectively contracting. I think that what’s happened in Wales, for me as director of nations and regions, is a source of great pride as to what’s been achieved, both in terms of the network strategy review, the contribution to the network, but also what will be achieved by the investment in Wales.
[45] I think also, in terms of how we talk to each other as nations, there’s a great potential to share stories across the three Celtic nations, if you will, in terms of the content because we share—. There are differences, but there are also similarities in terms of rural metropolitan issues—retention of the young in rural areas, all of the countries have a maritime economy of one sort or another, and, of course, despite the fact that Welsh is the official language of Wales, there are also bilingual contexts in the other nations. So, the richness that’s offered from the potential to look at what we could achieve together, I think, is tremendously exciting, and how the channel in Scotland—and the director in Scotland and Rhodri decided to interact with each other in terms of sharing content, sharing ideas, co-developing, co-producing. These are business sorts of territories that I think I just wish to frame what I suppose the ambition that I have for what we can achieve, individually in the nations but also collectively.
[46] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr am hynny. Bydd mwy o gwestiynau gyda ni ynglŷn â’ch rôl penodol chi yn hwyrach, os yw hynny’n iawn.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much for that. We’ll have more questions about your specific role later, if that’s okay.
[47] We’ll have more questions on your role later. Jeremy Miles.
[48] Jeremy Miles: Thank you, Chair. Can I just come back to the point that you made a moment ago? You mentioned the 8:5:3 as your targets. So, when it comes to enshrining a new set of quotas and targets, which you are presumably doing to reflect the Ofcom regime, the number that I’ll find in that document will be the 5 rather than the 7—7 point whatever it is—which represents the current output of the strategy, as it were.
[49] Lord Hall: That’s exactly right, yes.
[50] Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, there is headroom, effectively, within the new regulatory regime for the spend in Wales to drop by about a third without the regulator being able to take a view on that. You would accept that.
[51] Lord Hall: I think there’s another way round to this, which is we are under scrutiny by you and others to make sure that we—I want us to overachieve. But the thing—if I could just add, Mr Miles, to say—be careful year on year. I think, when we’re looking—and this is a point I’m also making to Ofcom, with respect to them, that, actually, we should be looking at how we achieve over a two or three-year period. Because, you know, when we’re announcing, for example, how we’re spending the £8.5 million, the engine room takes 18 months or so—
[52] Jeremy Miles: Yes, absolutely.
[53] Lord Hall: And I think there’s a danger there. But I think your point: we intend to carry on overachieving in Wales, and I’m sure we will.
[54] Jeremy Miles: The reason I raised the question is because, under the new arrangements, to some extent, you have less control over that number, don’t you, with the contestability of commissioning? When you’ve given up the window of creative competition and so on, you’ve got a much broader potential for independent production to come through, and there’s no guarantee that that would meet the same level of expenditure in Wales.
[55] Lord Hall: Yes, but, actually, I think what we’re doing with contestability is between now and 2027. We’ve got to manage contestability properly. We’ve also got to ensure that, as we contest, or make contestable various programmes, that we’re also making sure that what we do in the nations, and indeed the regions of England—that our commitments there are kept up. So, to the point that it’s a more complex web we are working in. It is, but, nonetheless, it’s what we have to do.
[56] Mr Davies: If I may, just to add: the targets that are set are, in a sense, owned by the television commissioners. So, as they look at where they’re commissioning, who they’re commissioning from, the responsibility and accountability sits with those television commissioners. So, with the creation of studios, that doesn’t make it any more complicated than it was before. It’s always been a responsibility that’s sat with the commissioners, and it will remain there.
[57] Just a point on year-on-year, just to give you an example of it, in 2016—last year—there wasn’t a Doctor Who series. So, when we publish the 2016 numbers there’ll be a dip because, for one year only, we didn’t have a Doctor Who series. I think, to keep a three or four-year view on these, we’ve always been 15 or 20 per cent above the target set for Wales and I would want to keep us there, but you will get variations from year to year, as different productions start or end.
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[58] Jeremy Miles: And I take that point entirely. The issue I’m really getting to is whether you’re going to be managing to 7 per cent or managing to 5 per cent—whatever appears in your regulatory framework—and you’ve given me the assurance that you will be looking to maintain at least the current level of spend. Just to draw that point out further: does that effectively mean that when you’re commissioning content under the new arrangement, when that point in time is reached, you will be stipulating that a production has to qualify as a Welsh production? Will you be stipulating the use of Roath Lock as a production base?
[59] Lord Hall: We’ll be managing it our normal way as we commission, which is we’ll be looking to make sure that we overachieve against our 5 per cent target and it depends entirely on the production—it depends on the genre and everything.
[60] Jeremy Miles: I understand that, but currently, independent producers have to commit to expenditure of certain levels in certain budgets at certain locations in order to meet bigger quotas that you have. Is that the intention with relation to the new quota for Wales?
[61] Lord Hall: Yes. We’ll be specifying where things need to be made. We have just done that with Songs of Praise, which is in-house, sadly, lost—[Inaudible.]—but we’re forward into the new future with two independents, one of which is based in Wales. Again, we’ll be insisting that these things are done out of London or in Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland. So, as Rhodri made very clear, this is what commissioners have always done and will continue doing.
[62] Jeremy Miles: Sure. I’m just—
[63] Lord Hall: Yes. You’re trying to push—.
[64] Jeremy Miles: I’m following the point through to the on-the-ground impact of what your ambitions are. So, on the other point on the facility at Roath Lock, conventionally, if you stipulate the production base, that means that it’s not an independent production and perhaps, in the new world, where there’s a lot more production, as independent, than you need to meet from previous quotas, you may be more relaxed about that. So, would you be expecting to stipulate the use of Roath Lock as a production base for appropriate productions in future?
[65] Lord Hall: What we’re working through now, because we’ve now got some space—we’ve actually contested our first few titles—four titles—and we’re learning the lessons of that: we’re talking to the indie sector and we’re also talking internally as well. We’re working out how we can make sure that we apply what we have to do—the contestability by the end of the charter period—in a way that matches our strategy. So, we want to ensure that we have a proper thriving base in Roath Lock and we want to make sure that we have a proper thriving base, as it happens, also in Salford and Pacific Quay specifically. So, we’re working through what we’ve learnt from these four and how we’re going to apply that to make sure that we keep these things thriving, going forward.
[66] Jeremy Miles: Sorry, just to understand that point—so if there’s a production currently in Roath Lock that becomes contested—
[67] Lord Hall: We’d be saying, ‘You have to base it in Roath Lock’.
[68] Jeremy Miles: Fine, thank you. That’s very helpful. Thank you for that. You indicated in the announcement that you made back in April on the new funding at that point that you’re also committing to work with Welsh Government in relation to Creative Wales. How does that fit into the BBC Studios development, Roath Lock, and what level of commitment do you feel that that public statement has imposed on you? What visibility do you have of what that means, if you like?
[69] Mr Davies: So, I think there are two strands: clearly, the shape of Creative Wales and the remit of Creative Wales are still being developed by Government. There have always been two strands to the conversation in Wales: one is a direct conversation between the producers and the Welsh Government about different levels of support—infrastructure support and training support—but BBC Wales, as a commissioner, and BBC network, as a commissioner, were also in discussion with the Welsh Government officials to see whether we can make it as clear as possible what the Welsh Government offer is on certain productions. They’ve been extremely strategic, I think, over recent years in terms of supporting the development of the sector and we’re currently exploring with them whether we can take that further.
[70] Jeremy Miles: Okay. Just finally then, Lord Hall, you mentioned the issue around the unintended consequence, if you like, of the hours target. That would be the case if it was only an hour’s target, but the interplay of the hours target and the expenditure target takes that issue away, doesn’t it, because you’re meeting two?
[71] Lord Hall: Yes, and that’s exactly my point. I would love to talk more about this. My worry is that—. Let me put it in another way: every conversation I’ve had in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, or indeed in parts of England, has been about the value of the investment we make. It’s not been about the number of hours; it’s been about value. My concern is that if you were to say, ‘Well, we have to make an hour’s target’, you’ll start going down to programmes at a lower cost-per-hour and you do less of what I think makes Wales so special in terms of the high-value dramas, because you’ll be saying, ‘Okay, we’ve got to hit that target as well, we’ve got limited funds, but, actually, we’ve got our £8.5 million, plus others—we’re going to spread that more thinly.’ And I don’t think that’s a consequence—. And to be honest with you, I don’t think it’s what Ofcom really want, but, if I can say, any support for saying that, actually, we’re after high-value spend, and what that delivers—you know, Doctor Who, Sherlock et cetera—would be very valuable.
[72] Jeremy Miles: But I raised in questioning with Ofcom the question of genre mix and day part as one of the sort of subsets, if you like, of that hour’s commitment. It seemed, I think—. It’s on the transcript, but I don’t think any thought had been given, really, as to whether that was a meaningful way of approaching it. You would disagree?
[73] Lord Hall: I think that these—. Look, we’ve got a new relationship with Ofcom. A lot of work’s been done very, very fast. I think this is one area where—and I’ve discussed it with the chief executive very openly, and with Ofcom; they know exactly what our opposition is—this is an unintended consequence of something that they’ve applied and they need to rethink. That’s my view. Because, actually—. I’m sorry, you want to come in.
[74] Jeremy Miles: By removing it rather than making it more granular as the day part?
[75] Lord Hall: Yes, because that also would lead to the consequences you don’t want. So, if you then said, ‘Well, it’s got to be an hour, but, by the way, it’s not in daytime’, you’re putting even more restrictions on what we’re trying to do, whereas I think what we should be arguing for is in terms of spend and in terms of the quality of the output that we’re producing from that spend. And what I want is to see, as we are now, 16 hours of drama versus 13 coming out of Wales. I want to see entertainment, and I want to see other things, which are the high-value end of the spectrum, not a lot of programmes that are there to fill up hours. I don’t want to sound cynical, but that’s what broadcasters kind of do when they’ve got hours targets.
[76] Mr Davies: If I may, and at the risk of being repetitive, I’ll give you a very clear example of that—the additional money going into the English language television. If we took the current tariff, the average cost per hour of what we make, and applied it to this new investment, that would deliver 200 to 300 additional hours. What we’ve actually said is we expect the range to be around 120 and 150, and it’s precisely because we want to target the investment at much bigger ideas, ideas that can not only work in Wales, but can work across the UK, and the sorts of ideas that attract co-investment. Drama comedies are the obvious examples of that, but we’re very deliberately—. In the old days of 2W, we chased volume. I just don’t think, in terms of what we want to do on BBC One and BBC Two, that that’s the right answer.
[77] Jeremy Miles: On that front, does the revenue you get from international sales of Welsh-produced programming end up coming back to your budget in Wales?
[78] Mr Davies: So, you’ll know well, with your experience, in terms of the terms of trade with the independent sector, and Hinterland would be an example of this, the rights reside with the independent producer, and, clearly, the distributor in that case, all3media.
[79] Jeremy Miles: BBC Studios in Wales, for example—how would that work?
[80] Lord Hall: What we’re now doing is saying, ‘Okay, so BBC Studios as a whole needs to benefit from the monies made by worldwide elsewhere’. You know this, but forgive me for just reminding everybody, the aim of BBC Studios is to get a circle going upwards of success, investment, into more success. So, we look at it as the whole of BBC Studios. But you know that the commitment of BBC Studios is to have a strong base in Wales, a strong base elsewhere across the UK as well, which differentiates it, actually, from the independent sector who don’t have that commitment to the nations.
[81] Jeremy Miles: Sure. Thank you.
[82] Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters with a supplementary.
[83] Lee Waters: Thank you. I absolutely understand the tension between hours and spend, and this is something that Ofcom indicated to us they were alert to. I think our anxiety is going to be around the volume too, because it is partly about the quantum. The whole debate that we’ve had up to now is that we just don’t get enough. Yes, we don’t get enough quality, but we just don’t get enough full stop. And I think we’re anxious about the wriggle room within the charter and the targets set through unintended consequences. However, there’s a real risk that the amount of coverage we get could fall back even more. So, for example, we’ve touched upon the 7 per cent of network spend currently, but this permeates all the different targets. So, for example, non-news programming. The current level of output, 2015-16, was 95 hours. The agreement stipulates not fewer than 65 hours. In Scotland, it’s 155 hours. So, I absolutely understand your point about not wanting a bean count—we want quality on network, and I think that strategy’s correct, but there’s a real risk—and we’re dealing with a light-touch regulator who has form in being extremely light in its touch—that we could end up worse off than we are now, despite the fanfare of extra provision. Do you understand our anxiety?
[84] Lord Hall: I completely understand the anxiety. And let me just tell you, Mr Waters, on the receiving end of Ofcom, it doesn’t feel light touch; it really doesn’t. It feels—I think the phrase we’ve been using is ‘real stretch in here’; it doesn’t feel light touch. I think they’re being very tough, and I think almost rightly, and I think when you see the annual plan next week and we go through it service by service, you’ll see that we are making strong commitments in there that are tougher commitments from Ofcom than the trust had previously. So, this doesn’t feel like a light-touch regime. Indeed, my concern is whether this gets very difficult to manage, but we’ve got to manage it. On the detail, maybe Rhodri can answer that.
[85] Mr Davies: Just on the particular point on programming, that’s why we’ve been very clear with this new investment that this will represent at least 130 additional hours on the existing delivery by BBC Wales. Putting the regulator aside for one second, we are saying as the BBC executive, ‘Here is a very clear public commitment to increase our hours of programming in Wales.’ There is no chance of us resiling on that over the next two to three years.
[86] Lee Waters: No, but you are in a bind—I recognise that—given that, as Ken McQuarrie said, the BBC is effectively contracting, and you’re committing to these now. Your strategy, I absolutely understand that now, is to better serve Wales. However, the regulation you’re acting towards doesn’t require you to do that and you may well face difficult strategic choices in coming years, where we have no real assurance that the provision we’re going to get is going to improve. So, for example, another example: the current affairs provision on Radio Wales. The current output is 53 hours. Scotland gets 50 hours. The requirement is 32 hours. We can go through these and a whole host of targets, but there’s nothing to stop you from reducing the amount of provision you have for Wales and stick within the agreement.
[87] Lord Hall: You’re right. I’m sorry—I now understand you’re talking about Radio Wales or BBC One Wales. I go back: the targets we have been set by Ofcom are tougher than the targets we had with the trust, and if in the discussion and debate that we’re having about—
[88] Lee Waters: But they’re less than the current output.
[89] Lord Hall: I’m sorry?
[90] Lee Waters: They’re less than the current output.
[91] Lord Hall: Yes, but they’ve decided that’s what they want us to do. That’s the minimum. It’s our job, I think, to say, ‘Those are a minimum and, actually, we’re going to do much more than that’, and year after year we’ve done more than that. Now, whether the mix on Radio Wales means we say, ‘Do you know what? We want to go beyond what we’re achieving at the moment’, that’s a judgment that Rhodri needs to take in line with whatever the public mood or debate is. I think what Ofcom are saying is, ‘The BBC Trust gave you tough targets; we’re toughening up on those targets to make sure you don’t go below those’, and our ambition is to go beyond that.
[92] Lee Waters: I don’t see how targets that are lower than your current output—sorry, quotas—are tougher, especially in the context of Scotland having more money than us, and as you said yourself, by creating a channel you’ve got to fill it. So, the pressure’s going to come from Scotland to fill this channel that you’ve created and, for us, the requirements are weaker than your current output.
[93] Lord Hall: I think, if you are saying, Mr Waters, that actually you think Radio Wales should do more news and current affairs than the 2,000 hours a year we’re currently doing, that’s a creative discussion we should be having and you know we listen to what is being said about our services. And if you think we should be doing more news and current affairs, let’s have a dispute about that. In a way, Ofcom are there to set us quotas, but I think what I’m trying to say to you is—and I think you’re agreeing—we consistently go beyond that. There’s an editorial discussion we could have about whether we should be going even beyond where we are at the moment, but that’s an editorial discussion for us to have, I think.
[94] Lee Waters: Finally, but you don’t have to, and my anxiety is that the money simply isn’t there in the way that it is for Scotland to deliver the ambition that I understand you have, but how can we be sure that you’re going to be in a position to fulfil that ambition?
[95] Lord Hall: Well, because we’re putting extra money both into our English language programming in Wales and we’re also putting more money into news and current affairs, which is going to run right the way through Radio Wales, Radio Cymru and, indeed, through to the network.
[96] Lee Waters: But you’re asking us to help you make the case to Ofcom to take the emphasis off the number of hours’ target, and put the emphasis on quality of spend.
10:45
[97] Lord Hall: Yes, in the specific area of network spend on BBC One and BBC Two and BBC Four. In that specific area. I’m not asking to be let off any quotas in any of that. I’m so sorry, I misunderstood your point. But I’m really not in that area. I’m completely content with what is being put forward there, but in terms of network spend, I am worried. I hope that’s clear.
[98] Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.
[99] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Diolch. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen yn awr at bortreadu a chynrychiolaeth mewn drama. Nick Ramsay.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We’re moving on now to drama portrayal and representation. Nick Ramsay.
[100] Nick Ramsay: Great. Thanks, Chair. Good morning. Moving on, as the Chair said, to drama portrayal and representation, what steps have been taken to improve network portrayal and the representation of Welsh life since you were last before the committee?
[101] Lord Hall: So, a number of things. As I was saying earlier, first of all we have a network commissioner for drama now based in Cardiff, working closely with the drama team in London. I think that’s really important. We have the Writers Room, as we promised last time, now operating too, looking for new writers, new ideas, new scripts and so on, and the annual plan puts portrayal as one of the objectives we need to have to portray Wales to the UK as well as to itself. Every main genre lead in commissioning has a portrayal objective. I can tell you what the drama objective says, which is to actively—I’m paraphrasing—seek Welsh stories and talent, sustain success in existing drama, but to prioritise in addition delivery of authentic Welsh portrayal, working with local talent, writers, producers and so on. So, we are holding our teams to that.
[102] I think the way of judging success in this is by what appears on the screen. I’m talking about network television here. I’ve been really pleased to see programmes like The One Show saying, ‘We’ll come from Wales’ around the UEFA final. BBC Cardiff Singer of the World, I had a minor role in—not a singing role. You may be saying, ‘Thank goodness for that.’ But I think, again, the impact of Cardiff Singer is absolutely fantastic. It’s brilliantly done here. Back to the Land with Kate Humble or the Lloyd George programmes, again, on BBC Two. Aberfan: The Green Hollow, you know, got the best audience appreciation index of any programme for about five years or more. So, I think in terms of judging success, let’s look at, going forward now, the programmes that we’re getting on the network portraying what is happening, life situations in Wales.
[103] Mr Davies: Just a couple of things, if I may. I think the quality of conversation with network commissioners is better than it’s ever been. Patrick Holland, the editor of BBC Two, was here last week meeting with a range of indies. Chris Aird is now on board as a drama commissioner for Wales, and on the ground meeting independents and the studios team. I could spend 10 minutes going through what’s on the slate already.
[104] Nick Ramsay: When was the drama commissioner introduced?
[105] Mr Davies: About two months ago.
[106] Nick Ramsay: And what beneficial change—? Have you seen any improvement in output since the appointment? Or is that something you expect to happen?
[107] Lord Hall: I think two months is quite a short time in drama. I take the point. I’m as anxious as you to get stuff done, but I think two months—
[108] Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]
[109] Nick Ramsay: I didn’t even know there was a drama commissioner.
[110] Mr Davies: I’m not sure Chris would take all the credit, but the fact that there are three dramas set in Wales, a fivefold increase in hours next year—that’s not a bad start. I was talking with him yesterday. What’s very clear is that he is really targeting some key indies, some key talent. He’s bringing scripts to us and ideas to us and he’s really determined to crack this. The fact that we’ve got a terrific start next year in terms of 2018, building on Ordinary Lies last year, I think that’s in good shape. But there’s a whole range. If I look at the next six months, there’s a big project with BBC Three, Valley Cops; we’ve got Requiem, which is shooting in Newport. BBC Four, for the first time, is joining us to do live transmissions across the week from the Royal Welsh Show. We’ve got Hidden starting to shoot in north Wales—a big eight-hour drama. We’ve got a North to South series across Wales on BBC Two. Richard Parks is doing Extreme Wales for BBC Two. We’ve got a BBC Four documentary on Frank Lloyd Wright. Suddenly, we can really see that the appetite has shifted, and I think that is because there has been a clarity, a real strategic clarity, by the BBC executive that we need to shift the dial on this.
[111] Nick Ramsay: Who was doing that job of the drama commissioner before?
[112] Mr Davies: There weren’t dedicated drama commissioners in each of the nations.
[113] Lord Hall: This is new.
[114] Mr Davies: This is new.
[115] Nick Ramsay: I’m just trying to work out, though—I mean, clearly, there must have been a body of work being done around this. Was that just spread between departments, or was it ad hoc?
[116] Mr Davies: Well, there was clearly a network drama commissioning team, but none of them had an explicit remit to really be accountable for what development was taking place in each of the devolved nations, and that’s the shift we’ve made.
[117] Nick Ramsay: You have rolled into my next question, which is: how will the BBC ensure that at least half of the English language additional programming funded with the extra £8.5 million will also be broadcast on BBC network channels?
[118] Mr Davies: That’s down to BBC Wales. That is not a commitment by BBC Television, that’s a commitment by BBC Wales to develop the sorts of ideas that network will be excited by, We’ve seen in the last three months, six hours of our factual programming for local audiences moving over onto BBC Two and BBC Four, so I’m confident we can reach that—
[119] Nick Ramsay: That’s a BBC Wales commitment, not a network—
[120] Mr Davies: It’s a BBC Wales—. I’ve set a very clear commitment that I would expect at least half of our investment over the next three years in new output to find its way onto network screens. But that’s going to be down to BBC Wales to deliver.
[121] Lord Hall: An important thing that Rhodri said, we all kind of know that in organisations like ours the most important thing is that the boundaries between people talking to each other and recognising great ideas are as low as we can make them. I do think this is an area where the message is kind of got in London that the output, and the recognition of the quality of the output coming from Wales is also understood, and this is where people are talking and coming together to plot how we can ensure that we deliver against these portrayal objectives. My sense is that the roster of programmes that Rhodri has outlined there is as impressive as I can remember. It’s not being complacent, we’ve got more to do, but I think it’s an impressive start.
[122] Bethan Jenkins: Can I just interject? Jeremy has a question.
[123] Jeremy Miles: The announcements that you made in February and April in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland refer to a portrayal fund, and it was described as a £2 million portrayal fund to support the development of factual drama and comic programming. That’s a fund that applies across the nations.
[124] Lord Hall: Yes, it’s a seed corn fund.
[125] Jeremy Miles: Okay, and it funds development.
[126] Lord Hall: Yes.
[127] Jeremy Miles: And it’s contestable, obviously. Who owns the fund? Who makes the decisions on—
[128] Lord Hall: Content.
[129] Mr McQuarrie: On that fund, on the spend of the fund I’m a joint signatory with content, and the decisions as to how the fund is spent are driven by the priorities put forward by the directors in the respective nations of what they wish to achieve. And then, ultimately, that fund is then disbursed across the respective constituencies, if you like.
[130] Jeremy Miles: Okay, so there’s no—. Because it’s contestable, you don’t have a sense of how much is spent where, it’s that the ideas will come and if they do, they contribute towards the portrayal of a nation in—
[131] Mr McQuarrie: Yes. And the pattern of spend will emerge, but it’s too early to do so.
[132] Jeremy Miles: Right, okay. Thank you.
[133] Bethan Jenkins: Nick.
[134] Nick Ramsay: What portrayal objectives have commissioners set for network content, and to what extent are these objectives being met?
[135] Lord Hall: So, the objectives for drama I just mentioned, there are similar objectives for each nation in drama, there are other objectives for entertainment and for all the main genres for factual programming, and they’re very much like I outlined earlier on. So, in Wales, it’s very much about sustaining the success we’ve got here, but also looking for new talent, looking for new ideas, looking for new things to build on. This is the first time this year, and I will judge success by the nature of what appears on our airwaves, on television, over the coming years and I think judging whether we’re getting the punts through, both through the objective and also from the portrayal fund too. This is new stuff. Judge us by the programmes you see on air and the quality of those programmes.
[136] Nick Ramsay: And, I understand, the programmes and what you see are very important. What public data do you have to verify how your objectives are being met?
[137] Lord Hall: Well, on this, as I say, it’ll be the programmes; what have we done; the quality of those programmes; the ratings in that sort of sense—I don’t mean literally in terms of millions, I mean in terms are these good programmes, are we proud of them—
[138] Nick Ramsay: Who’s determining whether they’re good programmes?
[139] Lord Hall: I’m sorry?
[140] Nick Ramsay: Who’s determining—? I’m not being facetious here. Who’s determining whether they’re good programmes? Because that varies; it’s subjective. I’m just wondering what hard data you’ve got, how you’re going to analyse—?
[141] Lord Hall: You judge success on a whole raft of different themes. You could have a programme that doesn’t get a big audience, but the quality of it and the appreciation of it is absolutely huge. You could get a programme that gets a huge audience—it’s what Jimmy Moore, who used to run entertainment at the BBC, used to call ‘distressingly popular’. You know, you’re making a judgment all the time about these things. But what we’ll do in our annual plan and our annual report and accounts each year is answer to, ‘These are the programmes we feel that have taken this objective of portrayal of Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and the north of England seriously, and these are the things we think have worked’. But, you know, there’s a lot of learning to do here. This is a new objective for the BBC. As Mr Miles was saying, we’re working with the portrayal fund, which is new. So, we’re going to be finding our way, but the commitment is there.
[142] Bethan Jenkins: Can I just ask, further to that—? We did ask last time for information on data with regard to portrayal, but we’ve struggled to get anything from you in that regard. Because I think it was Lee Waters that asked the last time—it could be an amazing programme, made in Northern Ireland or made in Wales, but actually doesn’t actually portray the life or the way we live here in Wales. So, if you’re going to be analysing this and saying, ‘Yes, programme x conforms to what we regard as portrayal’, then how do you know that that’s what the viewer would regard as portrayal of their own lives back to them, when, actually, it may not be something that they agree with, or can determine, because they haven’t had access to that information? I don’t feel I will be able to make a judgment because I don’t have that information to hand. How can you help us understand better how you would measure that?
[143] Lord Hall: I think—and this is a new area for us, and data may not take you in a direction that is the right direction—but if you were to take the output for Wales and divide it into those things, which are extraordinary programmes going to the whole of the UK, but, like Doctor Who, you wouldn’t know it was Wales, versus—
[144] Bethan Jenkins: That’s why Dai Lloyd wants bilingual Daleks.
[145] Lord Hall: Well, there’s a thought. I’m actually going to meet—
[146] Nick Ramsay: We’ve spotted the locations like the Butetown tunnel. And I did run into the Cybermen the other night on a night out.
[147] Lord Hall: There’s a challenge for us. Has it got to be a Dalek? Okay, well, I’ll take that away. Of course, we’re independent, but—. Those sorts of programmes versus the things that we think are actually portraying Wales, either directly or they are situations located in, obviously, Wales—I think if we lay out those programmes very clearly for you, you can take a judgment about whether we’re doing what you think is portraying Wales properly to the whole of the UK and to yourselves.
[148] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. We’ll pursue it further, I’m sure. Hannah.
[149] Hannah Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. In your initial response to Nick Ramsay, you referenced the Writers Room. I know it’s only been a few months since that was established in March. Are you able to outline any significant outputs in those few months, to date?
[150] Mr Davies: Obviously, it’s only been up and running for the best part of three and a half months. It was launched very successfully at the Chapter arts centre, with 250 Welsh writers and producers. It will typically look at between 200 to 300 scripts each year, and the real, if you like, smartness of Writers Room is that it is embedded right at the heart of drama commissioning. So, when a talent or a new voice comes through that they’re excited about, that is intelligence, if you like, that is shared both with the local commissioners here in Wales, because they sit right next to the local tv commissioner, Nick Andrews, but they’re also plugged in right at the heart of drama commissioning. So, early days, but for the first time we have a means of identifying and putting the right development behind the right writers. Of course, in Wales, we also have the good fortune, if you like, of having, in both Pobol y Cwm and Casualty, major engine rooms, if you like, of writing. The volume of writing that goes into those two dramas is phenomenal. So, where we identify a writer where we can see a development need, again that’s a conversation then we can have with those production teams. So, very happy at the right time to give you an update, but I think the early signs are very strong.
[151] Hannah Blythyn: How will that ensure that you’re able to attract talent and the right talent from across Wales as well, and bring them through? It’s a question perhaps for further down the line, like in 12 months or 18 months from now, but how will we measure the success of doing that?
[152] Mr Davies: Rachel, who leads Writers Room, will be doing outreach, and has been doing outreach sessions at centres across Wales to make sure, firstly, that writers are aware of the facility—it’s the most established training and development facility in the UK for new drama writers, but the office in Wales is new. So, we’re getting the message out there at the moment. We tie it in with the Wales Drama Award, which is something that BBC Wales runs jointly with National Theatre Wales and is a biennial award. Again, that produces in the range of 150 scripts each time we run it. So, we’re now plugging those two together. Then, the other element in the jigsaw is our partnership with It’s My Shout, which, again, works with about 15 to 20 new writers each year to make short-form drama that’s broadcast locally on BBC Wales. But I think what we’re putting together, if you like, is quite a significant pipeline for bringing new writers through. And, you know, this is not a science. Some with come through; some won’t. But I think we’ve got the most extensive development programme in place.
11:00
[153] Mr McQuarrie: The Writers Room initiative is one of the things we’re particularly proud of. We’re really quite excited about it. It’s working particularly well in the nations at the early stages. The commitment, in terms of getting diverse writers, both geographically and from every part of society, is one that the team takes absolutely to heart. They’re a really excellent team driving the Writers Room, linking well with the creative teams in each of the nations. There’s also the opportunity, I think, to look at how Writers Room works, say, in Northern Ireland, what the lessons are and also for the interchange of writers talking to each other. Because it isn’t a science, as Rhodri says, but it’s about fuelling the creative confidence. One of the things that I think underpins it is the capability that’s been developed in Wales in terms of the production capability to make the very best drama, in particular, that we’re really proud of, not only at a UK level, but globally as well.
[154] Hannah Blythyn: Do you think that will go some way to help actually how we—? I think you said in the 2015–16 annual report that within three years—. Going back to what colleagues have already touched on in terms of portrayal and representation that reflects the diverse communities of Wales—you know, there’s brilliant programmes being produced in Wales that are amazing, and we’re proud of them, and we’re obviously glad they are produced here, but don’t necessarily say anything about Wales itself. I think in the 2015-16 annual report you said that, within three years, you want to improve that. How do you think we’re progressing towards meeting that? It goes back to what the Chair said in terms of, ‘How do we measure that?’ and ‘How are we able to quantify it?’
[155] Lord Hall: My own view is that these are—. We’ve said a number of things about how we want to improve portrayal in Wales. I think the Writers Room, as you’ve heard from both Kenny and also Rhodri, is a really important part of that. I think, if you look at the mega picture of the BBC, you’ve got—. The media equality in this country is—you know, with the increasing importance of west coast companies, independence being bought up by American companies—. I think, over the next decade of the BBC’s charter, our role in terms of UK talent—finding new talent, giving talent its voice, allowing it to find its voice—is going to become more and more important. It’s why I think the portrayal objectives are right. It’s why I think the Writers Room is a really good thing. It’s also why I think having a commissioner based here for drama, but thinking about other genres as well, is really important. I think, increasingly, if we’re doing our job right, we’ll be the conduit by which UK talent finds a voice in the world.
[156] Mr Davies: I think, just to add to that—and I understand the Chair’s focus on data—but I would say, ‘Judge us on what you see on screen’. If you go back—
[157] Bethan Jenkins: It’s only because—[Inaudible.]
[158] Mr Davies: No, I understand that.
[159] Bethan Jenkins: I mean, otherwise I would stop asking, genuinely.
[160] Mr Davies: I wouldn’t expect you to stop asking—just any data. But it’s a really important point. If you look at drama in Wales, there’s often this talk of a golden age of Welsh drama. At peak, in the noughties, if you like, we were doing three hours of drama a year, and we were putting investment on screen of about £1 million to £1.5 million. Next year, you’ll see up to around 20 hours of new drama, and that drama will be—in terms of on-screen value—between £15 million and £20 million. Now, that’s not all BBC money; that’s co-investment. That’s because the likes of Netflix, all3media, S4C, BBC network and a whole range of other producers and distributors are part of that deal. But that is a complete step change from where we’ve been historically. Of course, it will vary from year to year. I can’t look you in the eye and say ‘We’ll absolutely hold that’ because it’s driven by creativity and by ideas. But I would say, if you looked across the factual slate next year in 2018 and the drama slate—and, I hope, over the next 18 months, in comedy too, because that’s the one we really want to crack as well—I hope you see a real step change, not just in terms of what we’re doing here locally, but also how that best programming reaches UK audiences too.
[161] Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.
[162] Jeremy Miles: Can I just come back to the portrayal funding? I was doing rough calculations when you were talking about Writers Room. That fund might enable you, depending on how you spend it, to develop 60 to 80 drama pilots. It’s quite a substantial number, really. But how long will that fund be run over? Is it an annual figure or is it a sort of—?
[163] Mr Davies: That’s an annual figure, yes.
[164] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Nick.
[165] Nick Ramsay: Just thinking back to all the questions being asked today and the way you started with today’s session, do you see a difference between—? It seems to me—I’m new to this committee, admittedly—that Scotland is being very much given its own channel, money—‘do your own thing’—whereas for Wales you seem to have a different agenda, in that yes, we’re having Welsh-based programming, but it’s being more as an engine for the rest of the UK as well. Are you looking at Wales more to produce stuff for the national network than you would be for Scotland?
[166] Lord Hall: Maybe Rhodri and Ken would like to join in, but I think what is interesting about Wales, from a broadcasting point of view, is the impact that BBC One Wales and BBC Two have here. Ever since I first met Rhodri when I came back to the BBC, his desire to build English-language programming on BBC One Wales, because it does so well, has been what I’ve taken as my leitmotif for what I want the BBC to deliver for Wales. So, it’s been actually looking at Wales as Wales as opposing to thinking ‘Yes, but hang on, how does that compare with a bit of the rest of the UK?’ We really are trying to think about our audiences in Wales and how we can build those audiences and serve them better, which is why I think, also, the issues about how we deal with news and current affairs in Wales has also—
[167] Bethan Jenkins: We’re coming on to that.
[168] Lord Hall: Okay, I’ll stop.
[169] Bethan Jenkins: Hannah.
[170] Hannah Blythyn: I’d like to move on to news and current affairs. [Laughter.] I just want to turn to how new investment will be allocated both in Wales and Scotland in terms of how we support enhancement of our current affairs journalism. Where will that funding come from? Will it be from this extra £2 million that’s been announced or the previous £8.5 million?
[171] Mr Davies: The honest answer is that it’s a mix. A number of the changes we’re making on television—for example the introduction of a monthly debate programme—that is partly supported by the new television investment. Some of the finances—. So, for example, the extension of the 10:30 bulletin and the introduction of a new integrated bulletin—a summary at 8pm—that will be funded from the £2 million. So, it is a mixed picture.
[172] Hannah Blythyn: Because the £8.5 million that was announced previously—all that new funding was open to full competition. Would that apply to news, or would you want to do that in house?
[173] Mr Davies: Obviously news within the BBC is exempt from contestability, but we’ve always taken the approach in current affairs, outside of investigative journalism—I can come on to that if that’s useful—but certainly in terms of our weekly current affairs programme or political programme, certainly in terms of the introduction of the new monthly debate, that we go through routine competition on that. That’s a healthy way of looking at it. It means that we’re constantly looking at new ideas and it’s also in line, obviously, with the principle of contestability. Just to be clear, news is entirely exempt from contestability.
[174] Hannah Blythyn: Will this new allocation of funding include potentially the opt-outs for news coverage on Radio 1 and Radio 2? Because I think at a previous committee evidence session, Lord Hall, you said that was absolutely on the agenda.
[175] Lord Hall: Yes, it is on the agenda. Let me be honest with you about this, as we have with everything else. We’ve got an issue here: it’s really difficult. If we could achieve it, I would like to achieve it. We’ve run up against technical issues. Bluntly, they are these: if you were to opt out on Radio 1 or Radio 2 on DAB, you need extra multiplex space, and we don’t have that. If you opt out on FM, you’ve got a problem, which is, for us, a really difficult problem, which is that you’ve got a very large block of population in Cardiff and down the M4 corridor towards the Severn, and you’ve got a very large population in Bristol and Somerset. There’s no way of breaking the FM transmission so that you can give Bristol and the Somerset zone what they want and what we would like to deliver to Cardiff and the zone around Cardiff. We can’t find a way around it. We want to try to find a way around it. This is not about money or policy or anything like that. We’re trying to find a solution to it. There are two ways that might have a solution. One is, when we get to 5G coverage, would the expansion that could mean in the content and the servers you could provide be the answer to it? I don’t know, but we’d like to think that we can find a way, if 5G is an answer. The other way through this, of course, is greater personalisation of our other news services. But, we’ve got a block here that we can’t work our way through, to be quite honest with you.
[176] Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to ask, on the £2 million, you touched on it earlier that the savings through ‘Delivering Quality First’ had made you able to do this. Could you just explain, with regard to the jobs with regard to news—you’re saying that there are going to be new reporters, new roles—does that take you up to the level it was when cuts were made some time ago or does that take you beyond that? Because, of course, savings have been made, new posts have been put in place now through this new announcement. Are they going to take us up to that pre ‘Delivering Quality First’ level or beyond that?
[177] Mr Davies: The truth is, Chair, even in the previous savings regime of ‘Delivering Quality First’, we protected news and current affairs investment. So, this takes us significantly beyond where we’ve been historically.
[178] Bethan Jenkins: And what about the commissioning of The Wales Report—the recommissioning of that? Why was the decision made to not recommission that as opposed to continuing—
[179] Mr Davies: We do that every two or three years. We’ve done it, certainly over the last six years, every two or three years. We invite a range of suppliers to put a range of suppliers to put ideas on the table in terms of weekly current affairs. That’s exactly the process that we’ve just been through. On this occasion, Wales & Co, who are the producers of The Wales Report, decided not to bid for that. So, we’ve just awarded that contract. It’s worth emphasising that programme and that strand will continue, and then, in addition, the monthly debate programme comes in alongside it.
[180] Bethan Jenkins: Did you rejig the commissioning process or the description, because it says something about a magazine-style programme? Is that why The Wales Report didn’t—
[181] Mr Davies: I don’t really understand that. The Wales Report is a magazine; magazine simply means there are multiple items in a programme.
[182] Bethan Jenkins: It wasn’t to do with the detail of the recommissioning that they decided not to reapply.
[183] Mr Davies: You’d have to ask Wales & Co that. We’re looking for a serious, hard-hitting current affairs programme.
[184] Bethan Jenkins: But, you could have just decided to carry on with The Wales Report as it is.
[185] Mr Davies: Ever since I’ve been in this role, and before then, we’ve always competed our weekly political programme every two or three years. It’s in line with our commitment to contestability and making sure that we’re constantly—
[186] Bethan Jenkins: So, it wasn’t anything to do with looking at viewing figures, looking at quality or value—
[187] Mr Davies: No, not at all. I think The Wales Report had firmly established itself; it built an audience beyond the Dragon’s Eye audience. I think it had done a really good job for us, but, on this occasion, Wales & Co decided they didn’t want to be part of that process. I understand that; independent companies take decisions for a whole range of reasons. But, I wouldn’t read too much into the phrase ‘magazine’. That just means there are multiple items in a programme.
[188] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Dai Lloyd.
[189] Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Wel, yn parhau efo’r thema yma o newyddion a newyddiaduriaeth a materion cyfoes, wrth gwrs, fel yr ydych chi wedi ei grybwyll eisoes, mae yna gryfder o ran y BBC yng Nghymru yn darparu newyddion ac ati, a hefyd, yn naturiol, mae yna wendid o ran papurau newydd printiedig. So, mae’r ddau beth yn gwau efo’i gilydd, felly rydym ni’n rhannol yn dod yn ddibynnol ar newyddion y BBC. I fod yn deg, rydych chi’n ymwybodol iawn o hynny ac rwy’n darllen yn fan hyn eich bod chi wedi comisiynu gwaith ar graffu ar ddemocratiaeth leol yma yng Nghymru. Dyna beth sy’n digwydd pan fydd papurau newydd yn mynd allan ohoni—nid ydym ni’n cael newyddion lleol felly. Wrth gwrs, fel rydych chi’n ymwybodol, rydych chi wedi cytuno i ariannu eich newyddiadurwyr eich hunain yn lleol—11 ohonyn nhw yng Nghymru—gydag un yn gyfrifol am bob dau awdurdod lleol. Felly, o gofio hynny fel cefndir, sut ydych chi’n cydweithio efo cyfryngau lleol yng Nghymru i sicrhau nad ydy’r newyddiadurwyr yma sy’n cael eu hariannu gennych chi yn cael eu defnyddio i dorri gohebu masnachol yn yr ardaloedd yna? Achos, mae yna berygl y byddai pobl sy’n edrych o’r tu allan yn meddwl bod eich cryfder chi yn golygu gwanhau’r wasg brintiedig leol ar sawl platfform.		Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Continuing with this theme of news and current affairs and journalism, of course, as you have mentioned already, there is a strength in terms of the BBC in Wales providing news and so on, and, naturally, there is a weakness in terms of printed newspapers. So, both come together, and we become partly dependent on news from the BBC. To be fair, you’re very aware of that and I’m reading here that you’ve commissioned work to improve the scrutiny of local democracy here. That’s what happens when newspapers disappear—we don’t have local news. Of course, as you’re aware, you’ve agreed to fund your own journalists on a local level—11 of them in Wales—with one responsible for every two local authorities. So, given that as a background to this, how are you collaborating with local media in Wales to ensure that the BBC-funded journalists aren’t used to cut commercial reporting in those areas? Because, there is a danger that people looking from outside would think that your strength would mean the weakening of the local print press on many platforms.
11:15
[190] Lord Hall: Could I just answer the top level and then maybe Rhodri would want to come in on some of the details? This is to enhance—the overall scheme, as you know and you adduced in your question, is there to strengthen the reporting of both local government democracy but also courts, et cetera. One of the themes that has run through this is us, the BBC, being absolutely clear that this is not a subsidy to local newspapers. This is not to give one paper an advantage over another; it’s actually to help us all do better the democratic things that we want to do. So, as we allocate people and funding, that will be topmost in our minds. It’s not a subsidy. But, on the more detailed points, maybe Rhodri wants to come in.
[191] Mr Davies: Rwy’n meddwl bod datblygiad y rhwydwaith hyperlocal yma’n bwysig. Roeddwn i’n edrych ar Wrexham.com ddoe. Rwy’n meddwl bod creu’r lleisiau yna a’r ffynonellau lleol yna yn bwysig ofnadwy mewn cymunedau ledled Cymru. Yn sicr, nid oes unrhyw beth newydd yn y bartneriaeth gyda’r BBC o ran y papurau bro. Mae Radio Cymru a’r gwasanaethau Cymraeg wedi gweithio a chydweithredu gyda’r papurau bro nid jest o ran datblygiad newyddiadurol ond ‘link-io’ a sôn am a chreu llwyfan cenedlaethol i drafod cynnwys y papurau bro.		Mr Davies: I think that the development of this hyperlocal network is important. I was looking at Wrexham.com yesterday. I believe that creating those local voices and sources is extremely important in communities throughout Wales. Certainly, there’s nothing new in the partnership with the BBC as regards the community newspapers. Radio Cymru and the Welsh services have worked and collaborated with the community newspapers not just for the development of journalism, but in linking and creating a national platform to discuss the contents of the community newspapers.
[192] Efallai fod yna un peth arall i’w ychwanegu, sef, fel rhan o ddatblygiad y siarter, y cynnig yma o adnoddau fideo a sain—y syniad yma o news bank. Os yw cyflenwyr, yn cynnwys y ffynonellau hyperlocal, yn cyrraedd y safon neu’r criteria rydym ni’n gosod ar gyfer hynny, fe fyddem ni’n gobeithio y byddai’r ffynonellau yna’n gallu elwa o’r broses yna, yn ychwanegol at yr 11 o newyddiadurwyr newydd hefyd.		Perhaps I should add one other thing, which is, as part of the charter development, this offer of the news bank of video and audio resources. If suppliers, including the hyperlocal sources, meet the standard or the criteria we set for that, we would hope that those sources could benefit from this process, in addition to the new 11 journalists.
[193] Felly, rwy’n meddwl bod lle i wella ac i gynyddu’r bartneriaeth, ond rydym ni’n ymwybodol iawn o ddyletswyddau BBC Cymru yn y maes yma. Yn ogystal â hynny, wrth inni ddatblygu’r adeilad newydd yn Central Square, mae Prifysgol Caerdydd a’u hysgol newyddiaduraeth nhw yn dod ochr yn ochr, ac, wrth gwrs, maen nhw wedi gyrru lot o’r drafodaeth ynglŷn â datblygiadau hyperlocal. Efallai y bydd yna gyfle yn hynny i ni gryfhau’r bartneriaeth honno.		So, there is room for improvement and to augment the partnership, but we are very aware of the duties of BBC Cymru in this field. In addition to that, as we develop the new building in Central Square, Cardiff University and their school of journalism is working with us in parallel, and they’ve driven a lot of the discussion in the hyperlocal agenda. That may give rise to an opportunity for us to strengthen that partnership.
[194] Dai Lloyd: So, rydych chi’n ei weld o fel y cymorth rydych chi’n ei roi eisoes i newyddiaduraeth hyperlocal, a hefyd yn ei weld o fel partneriaeth sy’n mynd i ddatblygu yn y dyfodol.		Dai Lloyd: So, you see it as the support that you’re offering already to hyperlocal journalism at the moment, and you also see it as a partnership that’s going to develop in the future.
[195] Mr Davies: Ydy, mae o’n falans, achos rwyf i wedi eistedd o flaen y pwyllgor yma o’r blaen yn trafod pwysigrwydd plwraliaeth a chystadleuaeth. Felly, mae’r BBC wastad yn gorfod pwyso a mesur lle rydym ni’n gallu bod yn bartner da a lle mae eisiau jest gadael i bobl wneud eu gwaith ar wahân. Felly, mae eisiau inni fod yn ofalus, achos, yn enwedig yng Nghymru, mae gwendid y sector masnachol o ran newyddiaduraeth yn amlwg i ni i gyd. Felly, rydym ni’n trafod ac yn ystyried yn fanwl beth yw’r ffordd orau o gynorthwyo.		Mr Davies: Yes, it is a balance, because I have come before this committee before and discussed the importance of plurality and competition. So, the BBC always weighs up where we can act as a good partner and where we can just allow people to carry on with their work separately. So, we need to be cautious, particularly in Wales, because the weakness of the commercial sector in journalism is evident to all. So, we discuss and consider in great detail the best way of supporting.
[196] Bethan Jenkins: A allaf i jest ofyn yn glou: a ydych chi’n mynd i beidio â gweithio gyda rhai mudiadau? A ydych chi’n mynd i weithio, er enghraifft, gyda Media Wales, sydd yn dominyddu, byddwn i’n dweud, o ran y farchnad papurau yng Nghymru?		Bethan Jenkins: Can I just ask, on this point: are you not going to work with some organisations? Are you going to work, for example, with Media Wales, which currently dominates, I would say, in terms of the newspaper market in Wales?
[197] Mr Davies: Wel, yn sicr, mi fydd y cynnig o ran news bank ar gael i Trinity Mirror, ac mi fydd yn benderfyniad cwbl annibynnol i Trinity Mirror a ydyn nhw eisiau elwa o’r gallu i gael gafael ar becynnau sain, pecynnau fideo, ac ati. O ran y rhwydwaith, the local reporter network, yr 11 swydd ychwanegol, eto, mater i’r cwmnïau unigol yw penderfynu a ydyn nhw eisiau bod yn rhan o’r broses yna. Nid oes gorfodaeth ar unrhyw sefydliad i gymryd rhan yn y cynllun.		Mr Davies: Well, certainly, the offer with regard to news bank will be available to Trinity Mirror, and it will be a totally independent decision for Trinity Mirror whether they wish to take advantage of the video and sound packages, and so on, and whether they want to access them. With regard to the local reporter network, the additional 11 posts, this, once again, will be a matter for the individual companies to decide whether they want to be part of that process. We’re not going to force any organisation to participate in the scheme.
[198] Bethan Jenkins: Sori—Dai.		Bethan Jenkins: Sorry—Dai.
[199] Dai Lloyd: Rwy’n dal i fynd ar ôl yr un un math o sylw, achos, wrth gwrs, fel rydych chi a ninnau hefyd wedi crybwyll, mae yna wendid yn y wasg brintiedig ar hyn o bryd, ac, wrth gwrs, trio ymgiprys efo hynny yr ydym ni i gyd. Yn bellach i hynny, mae yna sôn hefyd am gyllid cyhoeddus y gellid cystadlu amdano fe yn y maes newyddiaduraeth hyperleol yma yng Nghymru. A fuasai hynny’n cael unrhyw effaith ar y ffordd rydych chi’n rhoi cymorth neu’n cefnogi?		Dai Lloyd: Following on with the same sort of comments, because, of course, as you and we have also mentioned, there is a weakness in the printed press at the moment, and trying to address that is what we’re all doing. Further to that, there is also talk about public funding that could be contested in the field of hyperlocal journalism in Wales. Would that have any impact on the way that you support or assist?
[200] Mr Davies: Nid wy’n siŵr fy mod i’n ymwybodol o hyn. A oedd hwn yn bwynt a godwyd mewn pwyllgor o’r blaen?		Mr Davies: I’m not sure that I’m aware of this. Was this a point that was raised at a previous committee?
[201] Dai Lloyd: Oedd.		Dai Lloyd: Yes.
[202] Mr Davies: Gan Brifysgol Caerdydd?		Mr Davies: By Cardiff University?
[203] Dai Lloyd: Ie. Rydym wedi cael y dystiolaeth yna.		Dai Lloyd: Yes. We’ve had that evidence.
[204] Mr Davies: Nid wyf i wedi cael y drafodaeth yna. Ond, yn sgil y datblygiad yn Sgwâr Canolog, rydym ni ar hyn o bryd yn creu pwyllgor gwaith ar y cyd, ac efallai y gall y pwnc hwnnw fod yn rhan o’r gwaith hynny.		Mr Davies: I haven’t had that discussion. But, in the wake of the development at Central Square, we are at present establishing a joint working group and perhaps that could be a part of the group’s remit.
[205] Dai Lloyd: Y cwestiwn olaf—awn ni ddim ar ôl The Wales Report—gennyf i. Yn naturiol, rydym ni wedi bod yn canolbwyntio ar newyddiaduraeth a newyddion o Gymru a gwella’r ddarpariaeth yma yng Nghymru. Pa gynnydd sydd yna—i fynd yn ôl at y busnes o bortreadu a dweud y gwir—o ran newyddion o Gymru yn cael ei weld ar y rhwydwaith ledled Prydain? Mae yna le i gredu bod angen gwella’r ddarpariaeth yna o sut y mae newyddion o Gymru yn cael ei bortreadu ar y rhwydwaith. Pa gynnydd sydd yn y gwaith yna?		Dai Lloyd: The final question—and we won’t pursue The Wales Report—from me. Naturally, we’ve been concentrating on journalism and news from Wales and improving the provision here in Wales. What progress has there been—to go back to the portrayal issue, in fact—in terms of news from Wales being seen on the network across Britain? There is room to believe that there is a need to improve that provision of how news from Wales is portrayed on the network. What progress has been made in that regard?
[206] Lord Hall: I might ask Rhodri to comment in a moment, but I think I said to you last time—I might not have used the Forth bridge analogy because I think the Forth bridge now doesn’t need constant repainting, but that’s technology for you—this is a thing that we’ve just got to keep at all the time. One of the themes for the general election coverage, I felt was strong for us and so did the director of news, was the notion that we would be out there reporting the campaign and reporting the issues of the campaign, and less in London and more out across the UK. I think there were a lot of very strong pieces across radio and across television—the 10 o’clock news and the Today programme came from Wales. We can argue about the quantum and whether there should have been more, but I felt that, when we looked back at what we’d done, we’d done much, much more than we’d done before. That’s one thing.
[207] Secondly, and this is an anecdote, but what I see is the two teams—the Cardiff newsroom and the London newsroom—now working much better and in a much more fluid way than before. I’d like Rhodri to answer that honestly as well, because he’ll see a different perspective.
[208] I think, thirdly, that Rhodri’s investment now in specialist journalism and in investigations is also going to have an impact in London on things that we’ll be taking from Cardiff to London, because I think that the quality of those specialists, and what they’re going to produce, will have a real impact on the whole of the network, so I travel hopefully. But, just to go back, and I said this the last time, we just have to keep at this constantly.
[209] Mr Davies: At the risk of being contradicted by all the committee members, I think that the quality of coverage from the devolved nations in the UK network output during the general election was a significant advance on previous elections. I think that if you look across Radio 5, the Today programme, BBC News at Ten, the news channel, they all took opportunities to base their programming here in Wales. It may have been, of course, because the dynamic in this election appeared, at one stage, to be particularly going in one direction.
[210] The point on correspondence is important. If you look at the 10 o’clock news and the way that James Harding, the director of news, has developed the news at 10 over the last four or five years, the focus on specialist expertise is absolutely front and centre. So, one of the things that we’ve done deliberately with the investment package for Wales is to build local specialisms. So, I want to see a new role focused on home affairs and a new role focused on social affairs and a number of roles focused on our coverage of the Brexit story and how the Brexit story, particularly, unfolds in Wales, because the more that we can inject that additional insight and analysis into our output, I think the more success we will have in driving that output over into network coverage. So, I think there is a very direct relationship between how we shape our specialism and news gathering in Wales, and how that then feeds across into the network services.
[211] There have been other advances. We’ve talked in the past about the addition of a news belt into the six o’clock news programme, which means that, typically, there is at least some coverage of each of the three devolved nations in the six. We’ve introduced on the BBC homepage what we call ‘the slice’, which means you get a summary of your nation’s news when you access those services. I’m not going to use the Forth bridge, but it is something that requires eternal vigilance and eternal discussion to get right. But I absolutely believe that we’re making progress, but I wouldn’t sit in front of a National Assembly committee and say that we’ve got there yet.
[212] Dai Lloyd: Yn bellach i hynny ac yn dilyn y pwynt yr oedd Hannah wedi’i godi ynglŷn â Radio 1 a Radio 2, rwy’n deall y problemau technegol. Efallai fy mod i’n gor-symleiddio, ond oni fuasai’n bosib, o  bryd i’w gilydd, i gael bwletin bach o newyddion o Gymru ar y donfedd sydd gyda chi eisoes ar Radio 1 a Radio 2? Anghofiwch am y problemau technegol; rwy’n derbyn hynny.		Dai Lloyd: Further to that, and just following on from the point that Hannah raised about Radio 1 and Radio 2, I understand the technical problems. Perhaps I’m over-simplifying things, but wouldn’t it be possible, from time to time, to have a bulletin of news from Wales on the wavelength you already have on Radio 1 and Radio 2? Forget about the technical problems; I accept those.
[213] Mr Davies: Wel, mae e’n broblem anferth, ac mae e’n broblem o ddaearyddiaeth. Rŷm ni’n gwybod bod ryw 60 y cant o boblogaeth Cymru yn byw o fewn ryw 40 milltir o Gaerdydd. Ac os yw’r tonfeddi hynny yn ffaelu cael eu hollti rhag cyrraedd de, de-orllewin Lloegr—. Mae yna ryw filiwn o wrandawyr yn ardal Bryste sydd yn dibynnu ar y tonfeddi o Gymru. Nid yw hynny yn fater o adeiladu transmitters newydd. Y broblem yw nid yw’r sbectrwm ychwanegol FM ar gael.		Mr Davies: Well, it is a huge problem, and it’s a problem of geography. We know that some 60 per cent of the population of Wales lives within about 40 miles of Cardiff. And if those wavelengths can’t be split so they won’t reach the south or south-west of England—. There’s about a million listeners in the Bristol region that are dependent on the wavelength from Wales. That isn’t a matter of building new transmitters. The problem is that the FM spectrum isn’t available.
[214] Dai Lloyd: Rwy’n derbyn y pwynt technegol. Beth roeddwn i’n awgrymu fel math o ffordd ymlaen ydy pan fyddech chi’n cael newyddion ar Radio 1 a Radio 2, eu bod nhw, o bryd i’w gilydd—ddim bob dydd—yn cynnwys ryw stori o Gymru. Byddai hynny’n gam sylweddol ymlaen.		Dai Lloyd: I accept the technical point. What I was suggesting as a way forward is that when you get the news on Radio 1 or Radio 2, that they may, occasionally—not every day—include a story from Wales. That would be a step forward.
[215] Mr Davies: Yn sicr, byddem ni’n disgwyl hynny. Os cymerwn ni echdoe, a datblygiad y stori DUP, roedd llais Prif Weinidog Cymru yn amlwg yn y bwletinau hynny. Efallai bod eisiau mwy o’r achlysuron hynny, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yna ymrwymiad gan yr holl wasanaethau rhwydwaith i ymwneud â straeon Cymreig pan fydden nhw’n ddigon cryf i gael eu cynnwys.		Mr Davies: Well, yes, we would expect that. And, if we take the day before yesterday, and the development of the DUP story, the voice of the First Minister of Wales was very prominent in those bulletins. Perhaps we need more of those occasions, but I think that there is a commitment from all the network services to include Welsh stories when they’re strong enough to be included.
[216] Bethan Jenkins: Wel, rwy’n gwrando ar Radio 1 yn aml iawn, ac nid ydw i bron byth yn clywed unrhyw beth am Gymru. Felly, rwy’n credu bod yna lot—. Er bod yna newyddiadurwr a ddaeth o Gymru yn gwneud y newyddion ar Radio 1, ryw’n credu bod lot fawr o waith i sicrhau bod yna fwy o newyddion o Gymru ar y rhwydwaith. Rwy’n credu bod Lee Waters yn mynd i gytuno â hyn.		Bethan Jenkins: Well, I listen to Radio 1 very often, and I almost never hear anything about Wales. So, I think there is a lot—. Although there is a journalist who came from Wales who’s a newscaster on Radio 1, I think there is a great deal of work to be done to ensure more news from Wales on the network. I think Lee Waters will agree with that.
[217] Lee Waters: Two quick questions on journalism. As I understand from a recent announcement—. By the way, I think the announcement on the Welsh news investment is very welcome. The Scottish announcement, I understood, included around £600 million for journalism.
[218] Mr Davies: Six million pounds.
[219] Lee Waters: Six million pounds. Sorry, it says—
[220] Mr Davies: I’d have an issue with that. [Laughter.]
[221] Lee Waters: Six million pounds. Apologies.
[222] Jeremy Miles: That’s over-indexing. [Laughter.]
[223] Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]
[224] Lee Waters: Apologies. Six million pounds. What’s the equivalent for Wales?
[225] Mr Davies: Well, the equivalent investment in terms of additional investment into BBC Wales news is about £2 million.
[226] Lee Waters: Right. Okay. That’s a significant difference.
[227] Mr Davies: Well, I think there is a difference. Again, it’s a structural difference. In Scotland, they are creating this additional hour of news. Actually, what we’re doing in Wales is deepening specialism, building particularly on online and social. So, they’re two quite different structural responses.
[228] Lee Waters: There’s a theme emerging here, isn’t there, which is that you’ve hardwired something, a beast that you’re going to have to feed, which is forever going to put us at a disadvantage in terms of investment.
[229] Lord Hall: I don’t think so. I think I’m really excited. I go back to what I said at the top, Mr Waters—I’m very excited about the creativity of Wales and what you’re going to deliver for the network, even more of what you’re going to deliver for the network.
[230] Lee Waters: We can be as creative as we like, but, with that gap in investment, it does limit us. The question I wanted to ask around journalism is on the quality of it. Given we’ve much discussed that the general ecosystem of news is diminishing, and the competition you have in Wales is not really there, with the honourable exception of ITV Wales, how are you testing yourself that the quality of your journalism is up to scratch?
[231] Mr Davies: That’s a good question. I think there are lots of dimensions to that. One is the quality of the internal discussion and the scrutiny and review of our own output. One is clearly doing quite extensive audience research, both qualitative and quantitative, and, then, on occasion, when there are particular areas we might want to look at, be it investigations or current affairs, commissioning independent analysis of that output to give us an external perspective on it. So, there are a lots of mechanisms that we—
[232] Lee Waters: But you have sufficient robust internal testing of your own standards and quality.
[233] Mr Davies: Well, there’s certainly sufficient robust discussion about our output. I think the BBC—
[234] Lee Waters: You have lots of meetings, I don’t doubt it. [Laughter.]
11:30
[235] Mr Davies: You remember. The BBC is not short of self-analysis. So, I think there is quite a robust discussion about all our key output. But it is—. This issue of the decline of the market and what that breeds within the BBC is I think interesting and it’s easy to skirt over it. I’ve noticed it particularly in terms of our ability to attract new talent into the business. I think that, if you spool back 15, 20 years, we could fish in the HTV pool, and we could fish with the printed press in terms of finding those rising stars. I think, increasingly, it is vital that we invest more in growing our own, and I think the director general mentioned at the start of the meeting that we announced a couple of days ago a very significant investment by both BBC Wales and the BBC Academy in creating 250 development opportunities. The difference between that and what we’ve done in the past is that, whilst that includes 20 traineeships and apprenticeships, it also deals with this issue of how you prepare potential people to come into the BBC—so, it’s what we call ‘pre-application training’—because, actually, what we often see with people considering working with BBC Wales is that they can often lack confidence, they don’t believe that BBC Wales would be a place for them, they don’t believe that they could get into the BBC, and they feel—and I understand this—that the institution is so significant and of such sufficient scale that it feels a little bit intimidating.
[236] So, actually, around 200—more than 200—of the opportunities we’re providing are what we’re calling ‘boot camps’, which are providing people with a real flavour of how BBC Wales operates, who the individuals are, familiarising them with the individuals, so that they feel less—. ‘Intimidated’ is not the right word, but we’ve got to do more to convince people that BBC Wales is an employer they could realistically strive to be in. I don’t mean that arrogantly, but there are too many under-represented communities in Wales who still feel that BBC Wales wouldn’t be interested in them, and this focus on pre-application, I’m hoping, will make a real difference. You can advertise jobs and apprenticeships all you like, but you’ve really got to invest in getting people ready to come in. Sorry, Bethan.
[237] Bethan Jenkins: Mae yna ddwy thema ar ôl, so, os yw’n iawn gennych chi, byddem ni’n mynd dros amser tipyn bach. Mae radio ac wedyn llywodraethu gyda ni. Diolch yn fawr iawn.		Bethan Jenkins: There are two themes remaining, so, if it’s okay by you, we will overrun slightly. We have radio and governance to cover. Thank you very much.
[238] Neil Hamilton: I’d just like to ask a certain question about the package of measures you announced for radio on 23 June, extending FM coverage from 79 to 91 per cent of the population, Radio Cymru 2, and—. Can you give us an idea of how much this package will cost, and is that going to come out of your existing budgets or is it going to be additional funding, or what?
[239] Mr Davies: It’s a mix. Some of the investment is within the £8.5 million and some of the investment is us and the distribution costs that sit elsewhere in the BBC. The biggest cost with Radio—. The costs for Radio Cymru 2 are split. One is we will need to negotiate access to the commercial DAB multiplexes across Wales. So, that needs to happen before we can be really clear about the timescales and, obviously, until we’ve had that negotiation we don’t know what the exact distribution costs will be. And then, of course, there’s the cost of the additional programming, which is not huge—it’s only a breakfast and morning service. So, it’s a mix of a technology cost, if you like, and an editorial cost.
[240] The decision we’ve made with the Radio Wales expansion is really about looking carefully at the balance of coverage across the BBC stations in Wales. And we’ve made a difficult decision—I think the right decision, but a difficult decision—here that we needed, particularly in the political climate that exists at the moment, to make sure that our national service for Wales had national coverage. And that has meant that there will be a very small number of Radio 3 listeners who are affected on FM, particularly in mid Wales and north-east Wales. But they will continue—. Radio 3 will continue to have 92 per cent coverage on FM and it will continue to have greater DAB coverage than Radio Wales, so it’s still very significant access to Radio 3, but it will mean, for the first time, that on that primary platform of FM, where a lot of listeners have been dependent on medium wave for too long, we can deliver genuine national reach for our national station. I think that’s important.
[241] Neil Hamilton: I agree. You mentioned the restricted hours for Radio Cymru 2. It’s not for teenagers, is it, because it comes off air at 10 a.m. So, have you got any plans to extend the hours of listening?
[242] Mr Davies: Well, we’ve only just launched. We’re only just now—
[243] Neil Hamilton: Well, what are your long-term plans, your ambitions?
[244] Mr Davies: Well, I think we’ll—. Because one of the questions—
[245] Bethan Jenkins: We’ll have you back next week for another announcement, if that’s okay. [Laughter.]
[246] Mr Davies: One of the questions I was asked—
[247] Neil Hamilton: Is this just an initial bid, as it were?
[248] Mr Davies: One of the questions I was asked when I shared the news with the staff of BBC Wales was, ‘Are these all permanent commitments?’ And the truth is the media space in Welsh and English is moving so quickly that the notion of talking about things over three or five years feels increasingly an outdated way of thinking. So, we want to see it work, we want to see it succeed, we think that it’s going to give real choice to Welsh language listeners for the first time in the morning, when the real peak listening happens, but, like all our services, we will look carefully at what audiences do and be informed by what we see in terms of their behaviour.
[249] Neil Hamilton: You’re quite right to say you need to be able to broadcast to the entire nation so far as that’s technically possible and within reasonable cost. But this 91 per cent figure of reach for FM in Wales—how would that compare with the other nations and regions of England?
[250] Mr Davies: That’s a question. I’ll probably have to come back to you on that. Wales has always been, dare I say, the problem, just simply because of our geography and topology.
[251] Lord Hall: Ken, you may have—
[252] Mr McQuarrie: It takes it more or less on a par with the other nations. We’re just slightly behind. Obviously, Northern Ireland, in terms of transmission, is very easy. It doesn’t have the same mountainous—the issues that both Scotland and Wales have. But it’s something that I was very delighted to be part of, in delivering this for the national station, now, a reach that I think the national station should have, in response to the decision to do that. Obviously, that is a linear transmission, because, obviously, we’ll look at where we can use, in the future, online, and make sure that we make available information to the audience on the number of options that they have to receive the station, whether that be on Freeview as well.
[253] Neil Hamilton: I see. Do you want to interject there or—?
[254] Bethan Jenkins: Do you want to carry on? Have you got one small—?
[255] Neil Hamilton: I’ve got one more question—
[256] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Quickly.
[257] Neil Hamilton: —which is unrelated to that. It’s about the news opt-out that was proposed. That wasn’t mentioned in this package of measures. Does that mean that this an idea whose time has gone or—?
[258] Mr Davies: Do you mean Radio 1 and Radio 2?
[259] Neil Hamilton: Yes.
[260] Mr Davies: As the director general was saying, I think the problems on FM, the technical transmission problems on FM, at the moment we can’t get beyond.
[261] Neil Hamilton: Okay, fine.
[262] Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.
[263] Lee Waters: Two quick areas. One is the prominence of Wales on the BBC iPlayer. For example, you can only currently get Wales Today—it’s very hard to find Wales Today, full stop, and you can’t really get it beyond the last couple of days, so what proposals do you have to increase Wales’s presence on the iPlayer?
[264] Lord Hall: So, can I just leap ahead to what I’m going to be saying next week, actually, which is that I think the key to the iPlayer and online is personalisation? We’re investing in this; I think we’ve got to do far more. The reason that now you’re being asked voluntarily to sign in is because we can then work out who you are, where you live, et cetera. That will become mandatory very shortly, because what we’re trying to build here is a service that is much more personal to you. So I think—. Whereas search and discovery we need to really raise our game—I think we’re fine, but I think we need to be absolutely world class, you’re right about that, if that’s what you’re suggesting. But I think the other thing is that personalisation, I think, is going to make a big difference. So, when we know where you are and who you are, we can feed more of the programming that you want, more easily available to you. Likewise with our news and with our sport, too. So, I’ll be saying more about this next week. But, bluntly, I’ll be saying how important it is we really begin to motor on this in a very big way. I think this could be the biggest revolution in terms of our relationship to our licence-fee payers in delivering more of what they want than almost anything since the advent of the iPlayer.
[265] But I think there’s a concomitant issue that runs alongside this, which as services broadly—you know, the Amazons and others—are putting us into a funnel, as social media amplifies, so we’re getting more and more of what we want, I think our job is also to find ways of saying, ‘Okay, so, we’re delivering you a better service of the things that we know you need, but also what can we deliver to you that you didn’t know you need, as a citizen or a broad member of the public?’ That’s where curation comes in and is really important.
[266] So, I think we’re in for a really interesting period of working this through from the BBC, which I hope will really give our viewers and listeners a better service.
[267] Lee Waters: So, that public-service broadcaster curation will still be embedded within that.
[268] Lord Hall: Yes.
[269] Lee Waters: So, you couldn’t, for example, have somebody living in a part of Wales who opted out of receiving anything about Wales. There’d still be some—.
[270] Lord Hall: Precisely, yes.
[271] Lee Waters: Okay. The final question I had was about portrayal and how that’s measured. We discussed this with Ofcom, and they suggested, under the new regime they themselves would be initiating some granular research to what people—how they felt about what was reflected within the programmes. The example we’ve discussed in the past, which I’m intrigued by, is Line of Duty, which has been back on recently—an excellent programme.
[272] Lord Hall: Two more series, by the way.
[273] Lee Waters: Yes, and I’m a big fan.
[274] Lord Hall: Good.
[275] Lee Waters: But it’s a BBC Northern Ireland production. The chief character is identifiably Northern Irish. Beyond that, I struggle to see how Northern Ireland is portrayed in Line of Duty. Now, would that be counted, as part of the portrayal target, as portraying Northern Ireland to the rest of the world, or not? So, how’s that going to exist under this new regime?
[276] Lord Hall: This is what is so interesting about going around the UK. From the point of view of Northern Ireland, the fact they had The Fall, the fact they’ve got Line of Duty, they find that, from their point of view, brilliant.
[277] Lee Waters: I realise that. You’ve said that before—they’re glad not to be portrayed just as terrorism.
[278] Lord Hall: Yes—well, I haven’t said—[Inaudible.]
[279] Lee Waters: Well you implied that last time. That’s great; we’re beyond the Troubles. Excellent. But how does it portray normal life in Northern Ireland?
[280] Lord Hall: But they’re saying, as far as we’re concerned, ‘We want to see—’. This is why it’s not—. It is apples and oranges. It’s not an equal fit across the whole of the UK. Because what they’re saying is, ‘What we want to build there—’. Northern Ireland’s free, as you know—we talked about it last time; I’ve been absolutely—[Inaudible.]—and have been saying, ‘We want to build a creative base there that is showing how creative Northern Ireland is to the UK.’ That’s what we really care about. As it happens, we put a little bit of money into help Northern Ireland talk better to itself, but the brunt of the investment made there is Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK and to the world.
[281] Lee Waters: With respect, it doesn’t really answer my concern.
[282] Mr McQuarrie: So, My Mother and Other Strangers—I don’t know if you managed to catch that.
[283] Lord Hall: Yes, that was very good.
[284] Mr McQuarrie: It was an example of portraying Northern Ireland at a particular period. I don’t know if you caught that.
[285] Lee Waters: On my specific point on Line of Duty, because it’s a BBC Northern Ireland production, I don’t understand how it—. It’s great, and belongs where it is, but would that be counted as part of the quota for representing Northern Ireland to network, for example?
[286] Lord Hall: Strictly, it’s not representing Northern Ireland to the network, no. To answer your question, it’s not.
[287] Lee Waters: Right. Fine.
[288] Lord Hall: But what it—
[289] Lee Waters: It’s just good. Yes, great. That’s fine.
[290] Lord Hall: Really good. But I was making the point probably a little bit too elliptically. What I’m saying is that, in Northern Ireland, what they’re asking of us is different to what you’re asking of us.
[291] Lee Waters: Sure. I understand that. Okay, thank you.
[292] Bethan Jenkins: Or they may get some more money from the DUP and Conservatives. We don’t know. [Laughter.] Jeremy.
[293] Nick Ramsay: Their representation—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]
[294] Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.
[295] Jeremy Miles: Just as a matter of interest, that registration data that people will be required to provide for access to the iPlayer, will those also be shared with the tv licensing authorities to check whether people are accessing without licences?
[296] Lord Hall: No, but how we use and update the tv licensing database is a very active part of what we’re looking at, but it’s not part of the sign-in at the moment.
[297] Jeremy Miles: Okay.
[298] Bethan Jenkins: Jest cwpwl o gwestiynau i orffen wrthyf i. Pa effaith y mae’r oedi wrth gytuno ar aelod bwrdd anweithredol BBC Cymru wedi’i gael? A chwestiwn yn benodol i Ken McQuarrie, gan eich bod chi wedi aros yn ddiwyd i ymateb i gwestiynau: yn benodol, mewn perthynas â Chymru, pa faterion sydd wedi cael eu codi gyda chi gyda’ch rôl newydd? Sut fyddwch chi’n ymwneud â’r rhanbarthau yn fwy cyffredinol? Hynny yw, sut y byddwch chi’n ffeindio balans rhwng cynrychiolaeth pob elfen o’r gwledydd datganoledig gan mai, nawr, chi yw’r llais ar y bwrdd gweithredol pan na fydd Rhodri Talfan Davies yno rhagor? Felly, sut ydych chi’n bwriadu cynrychioli llais Cymru yn hynny o beth?		Bethan Jenkins: Just a couple of questions to finish from me. What impact has the delay in agreeing the non-executive BBC board member for Wales had? And a question to Ken McQuarrie specifically, as you’ve been so patient: specifically in relation to Wales, what issues pertaining to Wales have been raised with you in your new role? How will you be more involved with the regions more generally? That is, how will you find a balance between representing every element of the devolved nations as, now, you are the voice of the regions and nations on the executive board when Rhodri Talfan Davies will no longer be present? So, how do you intend to represent the voice of Wales?
[299] Lord Hall: Shall I answer the non-executive point, by the way?
[300] Bethan Jenkins: You may.
[301] Lord Hall: So, the chairman of the BBC is here today, as you may know, so I’m just hopeful we can get the non-exec for Wales done and dusted as soon as we can. What impact has that had? Well, as it happens, Wales sort of over-indexed seems to be the verb of the morning on the unitary board, because we have Tanni Grey-Thompson, who is a brilliant addition to the board, and also Ian Hargreaves, from Cardiff as well. So, in terms of them bringing a perspective to things, both of them are very forceful figures in terms of talking about what matters for the BBC. But, anyway, I’m really hopeful we can get somewhere soon.
11:45
[302] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Ken.
[303] Mr McQuarrie: I think that my representation, if you like, of the issues in Wales, many of which have been discussed here this morning, is absolutely dependent on the quality of relationship, dialogue and structures that I have with Rhodri and his team at BBC Wales. That’s at the heart of it. Obviously, I will have some subjectivity about my objectivity in this regard, but I believe that I can fairly, and with passion and commitment, represent the interests of Wales at the BBC board and I do so on the basis of having a long-standing relationship with BBC Wales over many years, indeed stretching to Rhodri’s predecessors. I could never have too much knowledge of Wales, but I’ve admired, from the very inception, what Wales has achieved, whether from the inception of S4C, and I think I’m inspired by what has taken place in BBC Wales, and I would like to carry some of these lessons to the BBC as a whole.
[304] Bethan Jenkins: How often will you be coming to Wales? Now that the audience council doesn’t exist, how will you be collecting information from the viewers?
[305] Mr McQuarrie: I will certainly be in Wales. My ambition would be to be here certainly once a month at BBC Wales, as far as that’s concerned, and that’s what I’ve set out to do. At different parts of the year, whether you sustain that—. But I will also come on every single invitation that I’m offered by Rhodri to BBC Wales as well. I think that one of the other things that I would like to say about the role, which I think is different in the period that we’re in, is that there is a great sense in the BBC of the opportunity that exists in the nations. So, clearly our responsibilities, in terms of meeting our obligations, are important, but that can be done with professionalism to meet these responsibilities. There’s a genuine enthusiasm across the divisions in owning the opportunity that exists in Wales and in the nations to the benefit of the whole of the BBC. I think fostering that culture within the BBC will certainly be one of my roles.
[306] Bethan Jenkins: Okay, well, we’ll definitely be coming back to you, asking for more information down the line. Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence today. Like I did last time, I think I bumped you into coming here again, but I was wondering, in a year’s time, whether, when you have progress, if you would be able to commit to coming in again to give us an update, obviously timetable allowing. I found it very useful for the committee members to scrutinise and to keep track of everything that you’re doing. We, of course, welcome the investment that’s been made, but we will want to make sure that we hear of the progress in the coming years and that we can be part of that discussion, ongoing. So, I’m not sure whether you can commit to that today.
[307] Lord Hall: I think it’s really important that we keep the dialogue going. I think we’ve all learnt, at least on the BBC side—I’d say we’ve learnt a lot from the discussions with you. Quite who’s appropriate and whatever—let’s leave that for discussion over the coming year. But thank you very much indeed for your time today and for your idea—when Daleks decided to fly, it was a very scary moment, but I’ll now take the idea of a bilingual Dalek to the Doctor Who team and see what they make of it. [Laughter.]
[308] Bethan Jenkins: It’s Dai Lloyd’s USP, so I can’t steal it from him, but I think people might identify with the fact that it’s made in Wales—[Inaudible.] This will be the story of the committee now, I’m sure, on the BBC. Thank you very much for coming in. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
11:49
Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note
[309] Bethan Jenkins: Symudwn ymlaen at eitem 3: papurau i’w nodi. Papur 3.1 yw llythyr oddi wrth Rwydwaith Cydraddoldeb Ieithoedd Ewrop, ELEN, at Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes.		Bethan Jenkins: We will move on to item 3: papers to note. Paper 3.1 is a letter from European Language Equality Network, ELEN, to the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language.
[310] Dai Lloyd: Rydym ni yn nodi’r llythyr yma. Gan fod sgileffeithiau gadael Ewrop, yn ôl y llythyr yma o’r rhwydwaith yma, yn benodol yn gallu effeithio ar bob un o’r ieithoedd Celtaidd, wrth gwrs, ond yn benodol y Gymraeg—ac rwy’n sylwi eu bod wedi ysgrifennu at Alun Davies—dylem ni fod yn gwneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â hyn gan mai hwn ydy’r pwyllgor ar yr iaith Gymraeg. Nid wyf yn siŵr iawn beth y dylem ni fod yn ei wneud, ond jest ei wneud yn glir i’r Gweinidog ein bod ni wedi derbyn copi o’r un ohebiaeth a’n bod ni’n disgwyl rhyw fath o ymateb oddi wrtho fe. Nid wyf yn gwybod sut i eirio hynna, ond rwy’n siŵr y byddai gan Steve ffurf o eiriad, jest i’w wneud yn glir hefyd ein bod ni’n disgwyl rhyw fath o ymateb cadarnhaol gan y Gweinidog i’r awgrym y dylai’r gwahanol Lywodraethau fod yn sefydlu rhyw grŵp i edrych ar impact Brexit ar yr ieithoedd Celtaidd.		Dai Lloyd: We are noting this letter. Given that the Brexit side-effects, according to this letter from this network, can impact on each of the Celtic languages, but specifically, of course, the Welsh language—and I notice that they’ve written to Alun Davies—then we should be doing something about this, given that we are the committee on the Welsh language. I’m not certain exactly what we should be doing, but just to make it clear to the Minister that we’ve received a copy of the same correspondence and that we expect some kind of response from him. I don’t know how you would word that, but I’m sure that Steve will be able to find a form of wording, just to make it clear that we do expect some kind of positive response from the Minister to the suggestion that the various Governments should establish some kind of group to look at the impact of Brexit on the Celtic languages.
[311] Bethan Jenkins: Os yw’r Aelodau’n hapus, gallwn ni ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog i adlewyrchu’r farn honno.		Bethan Jenkins: If Members are happy, we can write to the Minister to reflect that view.
[312] Papur 3.2 yw ymateb gan y Prif Weinidog i lythyr gan y Cadeirydd: penodi aelod Cymru o fwrdd y BBC. A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar hynny? Na. Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn.		Paper 3.2 is a response from the First Minister to the letter from the Chair: appointment of BBC board member for Wales. Are there any comments on that? None. Okay, thank you very much.
11:50
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting
Cynnig:	Motion:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).	that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved.
[313] Bethan Jenkins: Symudwn at eitem 4 a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus? Diolch.	Bethan Jenkins: We’ll move on to item 5: a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the meeting. Is everyone content? Thank you.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:50. The public part of the meeting ended at 11:50.