.........
The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In
addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This
is a draft version of the record. The final version will be published within
five working days.
Dechreuodd
y cyfarfod am 09:27.
The meeting began at 09:27.
|
Cyflwyniad,
Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
|
[1]
Bethan Jenkins: Croeso
i’r pwyllgor. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 1, sef cyflwyniad,
ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Croeso i’r Aelodau. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb
adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r
tywyswyr a’r staff, ond ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau
symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae
clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar
gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1,
a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Nid oes angen cyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y
meicroffonau gan y gall hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch bod y golau coch
ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad fuddiant i’w
ddatgan y bore yma? Na. Rydym ni wedi cael ymddiheuriadau gan Lee Waters, a
dylai Suzy Davies fod yn ymuno â ni yn y man.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Welcome
to the committee meeting. We move on to item 1, which is introductions,
apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Welcome to the
Members. If a fire alarm should sound, please do leave the room through the
exits, following the instructions of the ushers, but we don’t expect a fire
drill. Everyone should turn their mobile phones off or on silent. The
Assembly operates bilingually and headsets are available to hear
interpretation and to adapt the sound for people who are hard of hearing.
Interpretation is available on channel 1, and you can amplify the sound on
channel 0. You don’t have to touch the buttons on the microphones because
this could impair the system, and do ensure that the red light is on before
you start speaking. Does any Assembly Member have any declarations of
interest to make this morning? No. We have received apologies from Lee
Waters, and Suzy Davies should be joining us shortly.
|
09:28
|
|
Newyddiaduraeth
Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 4
News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 4
|
[2]
Bethan Jenkins: Rydym
ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 2, sef newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru a
sesiwn dystiolaeth 4, a chroeso i’r Athro Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones, yr Athro
cyfryngau a diwydiannau creadigol o Brifysgol Aberystwyth, a hefyd i Ifan
Morgan Jones, darlithydd mewn newyddiaduraeth ym Mhrifysgol Bangor. Croeso i
chi’ch dau. Mae lot, lot fawr o gwestiynau gyda ni, fel y byddech yn tybio,
ond y cwestiwn cyntaf gen i yw: pa effaith mae’r dirywiad mewn
newyddiaduriaeth leol wedi ei gael ar newyddiaduriaeth yn gyffredinol? A ydy
hynny wedi effeithio ar y cymunedau mewn ffordd negyddol? Sut ydych chi’n
meddwl wedyn y maen nhw wedi ceisio ymdopi gyda hyn mewn cymunedau ar hyd ac
ar led Cymru? Diolch.
|
Bethan Jenkins: We
move on to item 2, namely news journalism in Wales and evidence session 4,
and welcome to Professor Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones, the Professor of media and
creative industries from Aberystwyth University, and also Ifan Morgan Jones,
lecturer in journalism at Bangor University. Welcome to you both. We have a
great many questions for you, as you’d expect, but the first question from me
is: what impact has the decline in news journalism in Wales has had on
journalism in general? Has that affected the communities in a negative
manner? How do you think, then, that they have tried to cope with that in
communities across Wales? Thank you.
|
[3]
Dr Jones: Wyt ti
eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?
|
Dr Jones: Would you
like to go first?
|
[4]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn, fe wnaf i fynd yn gyntaf. Nid wyf i fod i gyffwrdd unrhyw beth,
nac ydw.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Yes, I’m happy to do so. I’m not supposed to touch
anything, am I.
|
[5]
Bethan Jenkins: Dim
byd. [Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Nothing. [Laughter.]
|
[6]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn. Wel, rydw i’n meddwl eich bod chi wleidyddion yn gwybod
cystal ag unrhyw un beth ydy’r effaith sydd yn digwydd pan rydych chi’n
teimlo nad yw newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio yn ddigonol, lle mae poblogaethau
yn mynd heb ddigon o wybodaeth, heb ddigon o drafodaeth ar faterion ar sawl
lefel o lywodraethiant, boed hwnnw’n lefel llywodraethiant ar y lefel Undeb
Ewropeaidd, ar lefel Brydeinig, ar lefel Gymreig, a hefyd ar y lefelau lleol
a’r awdurdodau lleol ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae’r ffaith bod gennym ni lai o newyddiaduraeth
leol yn digwydd ar y lefelau yna i gyd hefyd yn golygu bod yna lai o drafodaeth gyhoeddus a llai o wybodaeth ar gael wrth i bobl wneud
penderfyniadau mewn cyfnodau o bleidleisio. Ond hefyd
mae angen inni fod yn ofalus ynglŷn â’r cyfnodau hynny pan nad yw pobl
yn pleidleisio, ac nid dim ond ar y pwyntiau yna mewn tymor etholiadau y mae
angen inni fod yn talu sylw at ddiffyg trafodaeth a diffyg gwybodaeth.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Fine. Well, I think you as politicians know as well as
anyone just what the impact is when you feel that journalism isn’t working
adequately, where populations don’t have sufficient information and there
isn’t sufficient discussion and debate on issues relating to many levels of
governance, be that governance at European level, at the UK level, at a Welsh
level, and also at the local level and local authority level, and so on. So,
the fact that we have less local journalism happening on those levels does
means that there is less public debate and less information available as
people make decisions at times of elections and other voting times. But we
also need to be guarded in terms of those periods when people aren’t casting
their votes, and it’s not just at those times in an electoral cycle that we
need to be fully aware of the lack of debate and the lack of information out
there.
|
09:30
|
[7]
Rwy’n meddwl bod dod â phobl ifanc, fel rydym
wedi bod yn trafod dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yn enwedig, i mewn i’r arfer o
ddarllen, yn ogystal â gwylio neu wrando ar newyddiaduraeth a chreu
newyddiaduraeth eu hunain yn un o’r blaenoriaethau y gall y math yma o
bwyllgor, o bosib, fod yn ei ystyried. Rydym yn gwybod bod gennym adroddiad
newydd ym maes addysg sydd yn gosod cyfathrebu a llythrennedd fel un o’r prif
bwyntiau i arwain y cwricwlwm newydd. Felly, byddem ni’n gweld bod yna le i
ddod â newyddiaduraeth—nid yn unig i bobl ifanc fod yn meddwl am
newyddiaduraeth fel rhywbeth iddyn nhw ei ddarllen a’i ‘consume-o’ a’i
ddefnyddio, ond rhywbeth y dylen nhw fod yn cyfrannu ato. Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod y pwyslais yna’n rhywbeth a fyddai, wedyn,
maes o law, yn gallu cryfhau newyddiaduraeth leol.
|
I think that bringing young
people, as we’ve been discussing over the past few weeks particularly, into
the habit of reading, as well as watching or listening to journalism and
generating their own journalism is one of the priorities that this kind of
committee could be considering. We know that there is a new report in the
field of education that places communication and literacy as one of the main
issues in the new curriculum. So, I would assume that there is scope to bring
journalism—not just for young people to think of journalism as something that
they consume and use, but something that they should also be contributing to
and generating. So, I do think that that emphasis is something that could, in
due time, strengthen that local journalism.
|
[8]
Mae’n bwysig, wrth inni feddwl am sut rydym ni’n
rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar y system addysg ac ar y genhedlaeth nesaf, i wneud iawn
am fethiannau'r oedolion presennol. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth
i’w ystyried, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae rhoi pwyslais ar drio cael pobl ifanc i
gymryd rhan mewn newyddiaduraeth leol yn un peth, ond ni ddylai hynny fod yn
ateb sy’n golygu nad oes yna le i’r boblogaeth hŷn i fod yn gwneud
hynny, neu’r boblogaeth oedolion. Hynny ydy, ni ddylem basio ymlaen i’r genhedlaeth
nesaf yr hyn nad ydym wedi gallu llwyddo i’w wneud ein hunain. Ni ddylem fod
yn ‘infantile-eiddio’, mewn ffordd, rai agweddau ar sut rydym eisiau gweld
pethau’n newid yn y dyfodol.
|
It is important, as we
consider how we put additional responsibilities on the education system and
the next generation, to make up for the failings of people who are adults
now—that’s something that we need to bear in mind, of course. So, putting an
emphasis on encouraging young people to participate in local journalism is one
thing, but that shouldn’t be a solution that means that there isn’t also a
role for the adult population to also participate. We shouldn’t pass on to
the next generation what we have failed to deliver ourselves. We shouldn’t be
infantilising, in a way, some aspects of how we want to see things changing
and developing for the future.
|
[9]
Ynghylch sut mae cymunedau cynaliadwy, sut mae
trafodaeth yn digwydd ar lefelau lleol a beth ydy gwybodaeth pobl ynglŷn
â’r hyn sydd ar gael yn eu cymunedau nhw a’r hyn y gallan nhw gyfrannu at eu
cymunedau nhw—mae’r rôl sydd gan newyddiaduraeth leol yn bwysig iawn, iawn.
Ond byddwn i hefyd yn meddwl beth ydy’r berthynas rhwng newyddiaduraeth
leol—er enghraifft, rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth, felly mae yna
newyddiaduraeth leol yn cael ei chynhyrchu yn fanna ar lefel broffesiynol gan
y Cambrian News yn ogystal â’r newyddiaduraeth leol sy’n cael ei
chynhyrchu yn wirfoddol gan y papurau bro. Mae’n bwysig meddwl am y berthynas
rhwng beth sy’n lleol a beth sy’n genedlaethol, yn enwedig yn y cyd-destun
Cymreig—mae hynny’n bwysig. Nid wyf yn meddwl y dylem fod yn disgwyl i
newyddiaduraeth leol drafod pethau sy’n cael eu cyfyngu gan y syniad o’r
lleol. Mae materion byd-eang, materion ar lefel wladwriaeth ac ar lefel
ranbarthol fydol i gyd yn bethau sy’n effeithio ar ein bywydau ni bob dydd.
Felly, ni fyddwn i am inni feddwl am newyddiaduraeth leol fel rhywbeth sy’n
blwyfol neu’n gyfyngedig. Mae o’n bersbectif ar faterion sydd yn bwysig yn ehangach,
rwy’n meddwl. Felly, rhai sylwadau cychwynnol gen i yn fanna.
|
In terms of communities
becoming sustainable, how discussion happens at a local level and what the
level of information is that people have about what’s available in their
communities and what they can contribute to their communities—the role of
local journalism is crucially important. But I would also consider what the
link is between local journalism—for example, I live in Aberystwyth and there
is local journalism produced on a professional level there by the Cambrian
News, as well as the more localised journalism that is produced
voluntarily by the papurau bro. It’s important to consider how the
interrelationship between what is local and what is national develops,
particularly in the Welsh context—that’s crucially important. I don’t think
that we should expect local journalism to discuss things that are limited to
the local. Global issues, state-level issues, as well as regional global
issues all impact on our daily lives. Therefore, I wouldn’t want us to think
of local journalism as something that is highly parochial or very limited. It
is a perspective on issues that are of wider importance, I think. So, those
are just some initial comments from me there.
|
[10]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Ifan.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Thank you very much. Ifan.
|
[11]
Dr Jones: Rydw i’n
meddwl y buaswn i’n ategu popeth yr oedd Elin yn ei ddweud yn fanna. Mae yna
bryder mawr, yn enwedig mewn amser o gyni economaidd pan mae nifer o
gynghorau’n gorfod gwneud toriadau ar hyn o bryd, nad yw nifer o bobl yn
ymwybodol neu efallai ddim yn rhan o’r drafodaeth. Nid oes yna sffêr
gyhoeddus leol, mewn ffordd, mewn lle fel bod pobl yn gallu dylanwadu,
efallai, neu’n gwybod lle mae’r toriadau yna’n mynd i syrthio.
|
Dr Jones: I think I
would endorse everything that Elin has just said there. There are huge
concerns, especially in times of economic austerity where councils have to
make cuts at present, that a number of people aren’t aware or perhaps aren’t
even part of the discussion. There isn’t a local public sphere, in a way,
where people can influence, perhaps, or know where those cuts are going to
fall.
|
[12]
Rydw i’n poeni tipyn bach—mae yna lot o sôn ar
hyn o bryd am newyddion tra lleol, neu hyperleol, felly, fel rhyw fath o ateb
i nifer o’r problemau yma. Rydw i wedi bod i nifer o gynadleddau sy’n trafod
hyn, ond beth sy’n fy mhryderu i, efallai, ydy’r ffaith nad yw’r sail
economaidd yno y tu cefn i newyddion hyperleol. Mae’r cwestiwn ymhob un o’r cynadleddau—maen
nhw’n gallu bod yn eithaf iwtopaidd mewn ffordd—ynglŷn â chymunedau
lleol yn cymryd rheolaeth o newyddiaduraeth. Ond ar ddiwedd y dydd, rydw i’n meddwl bod angen
newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol, ac mae angen amser ac adnoddau ar bobl i fedru
mynd i’r afael â newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol er mwyn datgelu beth sy’n mynd
ymlaen yn eu cymunedau nhw. Dyna’r fath o newyddiaduraeth sydd yn y pen draw
yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth mwyaf.
|
I’m a little bit
concerned—there’s a great deal of mention made about hyperlocal news as some
kind of response to these issues. I’ve been to a number of conferences that
have been discussing this, but what concerns me, perhaps, is that the
economic foundation isn’t there behind hyperlocal news. The question in all
of the conferences that I’ve attended—they can be quite utopian in their
point of view—is about local communities taking control of journalism. But,
ultimately, I think that we need journalism that’s professional, and that
time and resources need to be available for people to undertake investigatory
journalism to discover what’s going on in their communities. That’s the kind
of journalism that makes the greatest difference, I think.
|
[13]
Beth rydw i’n tueddu’i weld yn cael ei wneud ar
hyn o bryd, dim hyd yn oed ar lefel lleol a lefel rhanbarthol, ond yn
rhywbeth fel y Daily Post, ydy lot o newyddion yn dod o rai
ffynonellau megis, er enghraifft, y llysoedd. Bron bob dydd yn y Daily
Post, mae yna ryw drosedd ar y dudalen flaen. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai,
oherwydd y cyfyngu ar yr adnoddau yna sydd yn digwydd, fod yna efallai
orddibyniaeth wedyn ar ffynonellau newyddion gweddol syml, lle mae modd i’r
newyddiadurwr fynd ac eistedd yn y llys drwy’r dydd a bod y newyddion yn dod
tuag atyn nhw.
|
What I tend to see being
done at present, not even at a local level or regional level, but with
something like the Daily Post, is a great deal of news is coming from some
sources, for example, the courts. Almost every day in the Daily Post,
there is some kind of crime reported on the front page. I think that because
there’s that restriction on resources, there’s an over-reliance then on news
sources that are relatively simple, where the journalist can go and sit in
the court all day and that news comes to them.
|
[14]
Roedd eich cwestiwn chi’n trafod y lleol yn
benodol, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yna le i boeni, fel roedd Elin yn sôn hefyd,
am y cenedlaethol yng Nghymru, a’r ffaith bod gennym ni, rydw i’n meddwl,
ddiffyg democrataidd difrifol yma yng Nghymru lle mae’r ymchwil gan y BBC ac
ICM, er enghraifft, wedi dangos bod anwybodaeth yn helaeth ynglŷn â, hyd
yn oed, er enghraifft, pa rymoedd sylfaenol sydd gan y Cynulliad. Er enghraifft,
y nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod mai’r Cynulliad sydd yn gyfrifol am
iechyd, er enghraifft. Mae lot o bobl yn meddwl mai’r Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol
am yr heddlu ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae gen i bryderon go iawn am y diffyg
democrataidd yna yn ogystal â’r problemau lleol.
|
Your question discussed
local issues specifically, but I think that there is room for concern, as
Elin said as well, about the national picture in Wales and the fact that we
have, I think, a serious democratic deficit here in Wales. The research from
the BBC and ICM, for example, has shown that there is a widespread lack of
knowledge, even about what base of powers the Assembly has, for example.
People don’t know that the Assembly is responsible for health, for example.
Many people think that the Assembly is responsible for policing and so on.
So, I do have genuine concerns about the democratic deficit, as well as the
local issues.
|
[15]
Rydw i’n meddwl, yng Nghymru, rydym ni wedi cael
gwasg rhanbarthol masnachol eithaf cryf erioed, ond rydw i’n meddwl, yn
ogystal â phryderu am le mae pobl yn cael eu newyddion lleol, fod angen i’r
pwyllgor hefyd bryderu am le mae pobl yn cael eu newyddion cenedlaethol,
achos rydw i’n meddwl, fel mae Brexit wedi dangos inni, pan fo yna ryw fath o
disconnect yn digwydd rhwng pobl a sefydliadau gwleidyddol, os oes yna
bobl wedyn yn rhyw fath o chwythu i fyny rhyw stêm poblyddol, ‘O, fe wnawn ni
gael gwared ar ryw sefydliad,’ os nad yw pobl yn teimlo cysylltiad â’r
sefydliad yna, mae’n rhywbeth sy’n hawdd iawn wedyn yn mynd i wynebu’r
fwyell, rydw i’n meddwl.
|
I think that, in Wales, we
have had a regional commercial press that’s been quite strong for a long
time, but, as well as being concerned about where people get their local news
from, I think the committee needs to be concerned about where people receive
their national news, because I think, as Brexit has shown us, that where
there is some kind of disconnect between people and the political
institutions, if people then build up a head of populist steam about some
kind of political issue, ‘Oh, we’ll get rid of some institution,’ and people
lose that link and connection with that institution, then it’s very easy for
that institution to face the axe, I think.
|
[16]
Bethan Jenkins: Jest
i ymateb i’ch consýrn o ran newyddion cenedlaethol, rydym ni yn mynd i fod yn
edrych ar hynny hefyd, nid yn unig newyddion lleol, cymunedol. Jest i ddweud
hynny. Ond, a oes sylw ychwanegol gennych chi? Roeddech chi wedi dechrau,
Ifan, dweud am yr effaith ar bobl, eu bod nhw ddim yn deall datganoli, ond a
oes yna effeithiau penodol eraill i Gymru rydych chi’n credu bod dirywiad
newyddiaduriaeth leol wedi eu cael? Er enghraifft, mae bwrdd ymgynghori Ofcom
yn dweud bod Cymru’n cael ei gwasanaethu yn llai nag ardaloedd eraill Prydain
o ran radio masnachol ac yn y blaen. Felly, a oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol
gennych chi i’w ddweud yn hynny o beth?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Just
to respond to your concern about national news, we are going to be looking at
that. It’s not just the local and community news that we’re going to be
covering. I just want to make that point. But do you have any additional
comments? Ifan, you started to mention the impact of people not understanding
devolution, but are there any other specific issues of pertinence to Wales
that the decline of local journalism has caused? The Ofcom consultative board
has said that Wales is served less comprehensively than other areas of the UK
in terms of commercial radio and so on. So, are there any additional points
that you’d like to make in relation to that?
|
[17]
Dr Jones: Wel,
efallai un sgil-effaith penodol sy’n dod i’r meddwl yn syth ydy’r ffaith, yn
yr etholiadau lleol diweddar, y gwnaethom ni weld bod yna nifer o seddi mewn
wardiau yng Nghymru lle’r oedd dim ond un ymgeisydd i fod yn y cyngor. Hefyd,
rydw i’n meddwl roedd yna un ward ym Mhowys lle nad oedd yna ddim un
ymgeisydd o gwbl. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai fod hynny, i ryw raddau, yn
adlewyrchu’r ffaith ei bod hi’n amser o gyni ariannol. Efallai nad oes neb
ishio’r job amhoblogaidd o orfod gyrru’r toriadau yma drwy’r cyngor, felly.
Ac rydw i’n meddwl ei fod o hefyd, efallai, yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod yna
eithaf diffyg cysylltiad rhwng pobl â’u hardaloedd lleol nhw, ac efallai bod
nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod beth ydy cyfrifoldebau cyngor, pa fath o
waith mae’r cyngor yn ei wneud, ac efallai fod hynny’n arwain at sefyllfa lle
mae yna ddiffyg hyder gan bobl i ymgymryd â’r gwaith o ddylanwadu ar waith eu
cyngor lleol nhw neu roi eu hunain ymlaen fel aelodau etholedig.
|
Dr Jones: Well, one
possible side-effect that comes to mind immediately is that in the recent
local elections we saw a number of seats in wards in Wales where there was
only one candidate for the council. Also, I think there was one ward in Powys
where there were no candidates at all. I think that, to some extent, is a
reflection of the fact that it’s a time of financial austerity and perhaps
people don’t want this unpopular job of enforcing cuts through the council.
And it perhaps reflects the fact that there is a lack of connection between
people and their local areas, and people may not know what the
responsibilities of a council are and what work the council does, and perhaps
that leads to a situation where people have a lack of confidence to get to
grips with that work of influencing their local council or putting themselves
forward as elected members.
|
[18]
Bethan Jenkins: Elin.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Elin.
|
[19]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Un o’r pethau eraill rydw i’n meddwl bod Ofcom—ac mae lot fawr o
dystiolaeth wedi eich cyrraedd chi’n barod hefyd, onid oes, ynglŷn â
mater plwraliaeth yn y wasg a’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru yn enwedig, a’r
ddibyniaeth sydd yna ar ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus i fod yn cynhyrchu newyddion a
bod hynny’n arbennig o wir yn achos newyddion yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Ac eithrio
Golwg360, nid oes newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol arall lle mae newyddiadurwyr
yn cael eu talu. Nid ydy hynny i ddweud nad oes yna newyddiaduraeth o safon
yn digwydd mewn mannau eraill, ac mae Ifan wrth fy ochr i’n fan hyn wedi
dechrau blog newyddiadurol neu newyddiaduraeth ar-lein, ond nid wyf i’n
meddwl eu bod nhw wedi cyrraedd y pwynt rŵan lle
maen nhw’n talu ffi broffesiynol. Felly, mae yna gwestiynau mawr ynglŷn
ag a ydym ni’n disgwyl i bobl fod yn gallu gwneud gyrfa allan o fod yn
newyddiadurwyr. A ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiadurwyr orfod gwneud pethau
eraill hefyd? A ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiadurwyr fod yn athrawon, efallai,
neu fod yn ymgynghorwyr PR, neu’n lobïwyr? Ble mae’r ffin wedyn rhwng bod yn
newyddiadurwr proffesiynol sydd yn gallu edrych ar safbwyntiau yn ddiduedd,
neu mor ddiduedd â beth sy’n bosibl?
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: One of the other things that I think Ofcom has mentioned,
and you have received a great deal of evidence about already as a committee,
is the issue of plurality in the press and media in Wales, and the reliance
on public service broadcasters to be producing news, and that’s particularly
true in the case of Welsh language news. With the exception of Golwg360,
there is no other professional journalism where journalists are paid for
their work. That’s not to say that there isn’t quality journalism happening
elsewhere, and Ifan, by my side here, has established a new journalistic blog
or online journalism, but I don’t think that they’ve reached the point yet
where they actually pay a professional fee to their contributors. So, there
are major questions as to whether we are expecting people to be able to build
a career in journalism. Do we expect journalists to have to do other jobs? Do
we expect journalists to be teachers, or PR consultants, or lobbyists? And
then, where is that boundary between being a professional journalist who can
look at views in a totally impartial way, or in as impartial a way as
possible?
|
[20]
Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod yna bryderon yn codi
ynglŷn â meddwl a ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiaduraeth fod yn broffesiwn
lle mae pobl yn cael eu talu, a hefyd ynglŷn â chael amrywiaeth yn y
wasg, nid jest o ran persbectifau gwleidyddol, ond hefyd o ran lle mae yna
wahanol lefelau o arbenigedd mewn newyddiaduraeth. A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod
yna arbenigwyr ym maes iechyd sydd yn newyddiadura yn lleol? A ydym ni’n
disgwyl bod yna arbenigwyr ym maes addysg sydd yn gallu dehongli polisïau’r
Llywodraeth, a pholisïau ar wahanol lefelau o lywodraeth hefyd? A ydym ni’n
disgwyl bod y newyddiaduraeth yna yn gallu bod hefyd yn newyddiaduraeth sy’n
canolbwyntio ar ardaloedd lleol? Rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth ond rydw i’n dod
yn wreiddiol o ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru—sef, Delyn, fel mae’n digwydd. Rydw i’n
gwybod, yn yr ardal yna, fod gennym ni newyddiaduraeth leol—mae yna
newyddiaduraeth yn fanna—ond a oes yna ddigon o arbenigedd yn yr ardal yna,
neu yn unrhyw ardal arall yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r gallu i edrych ar
themâu penodol fel addysg, neu fel iechyd, ac edrych ar sawl lefel o bolisi?
Felly, rydw i’n poeni am hynny hefyd.
|
Then there are some
concerns as to whether we are expecting journalism to be a profession where
people are properly remunerated, and also in terms of having plurality in the
press; it’s not just a matter of political perspectives, but also an issue of
where there are different levels of expertise within journalism. Do we expect
to have specialists in health who work in journalism at a local level? Do we
expect to have specialists in education who could interpret government policy
at all various different levels of government? Do we expect that journalism
to also be journalism that focuses on localities? Now, I live in Aberystwyth,
but I’m originally from the north-east of Wales—Delyn as it happens. I know
that, in that area, yes, we do have local journalism—there is journalism
there—but is there the expertise in that area, or in any other area of Wales,
in terms of the ability to look at a specific theme, such as health or
education, and look at the various levels of policy? So, I’m very concerned
about that, too.
|
[21]
Dr Jones: Fel rhywun
sy’n dod o gefndir newyddiadurol, rydw i wedi gweld effeithiau diffyg
adnoddau i fedru ymchwilio yn effeithiol i straeon newyddion. Rydw i’n
meddwl, bron a bod, fod ein gwasg ni yn lleol, ac yn genedlaethol i raddau
rŵan, ac yn rhanbarthol, yn troi mewn i ryw fath o lwyfan ar gyfer
datganiadau i’r wasg. Yr unig blwraliaeth sydd yna o fewn ein gwasg, mewn
gwirionedd, ydy, os ydy un ochr o’r stori wedi cyhoeddi datganiad ac ochr
arall y stori wedi cyhoeddi datganiad hefyd, efallai rhywle yn y canol fod
gennych chi’r ddwy ochr i’r stori. Nid ydy hi’n sefyllfa lle mae’r
newyddiadurwyr yn gallu mynd allan gyda’u hadnoddau newyddiadurol a’u llygaid
ei hunan, wedyn, i ddarganfod lle mae’r gwirionedd. Y cyfan maen nhw’n gallu
ei wneud ydy bod gennych chi ryw system adversarial, bron a bod mewn
llys, lle mae gennych chi’r case for the defence a’r case
for the prosecution yn mynd benben â’i gilydd.
|
Dr Jones: As someone
who comes from a journalistic background, I’ve seen the effects of a lack of
resources to be able to investigate news stories effectively. I think that
our local press and national press, to some extent, and our regional press,
are turning into some kind of platform for press statements. The only
plurality that we have in our press is that if one side of the story has
published a press release and then the other side of the story also publishes
a press release, you may have both sides of that story somewhere in the
middle. We don’t have a situation where the journalists can go out and use their
own resources and their own eyes to find out where the truth lies. All that
they can do at present is that you have some kind of adversarial system,
almost like a court, where you have the case for the defence and the case for
the prosecution going head to head.
|
[22]
O ran arbenigedd, pan wnes i ddechrau, pan oeddwn
i’n graddio o’r brifysgol ac yn mynd ar brofiad gwaith i lefydd fel y Western
Mail ac yn y blaen, mi oedd gennych chi ohebwyr a oedd efo rhyw fath o patch
neu efo rhyw fath o friff penodol, bryd hynny. Nid ydw i’n siŵr i ba
raddau mae hynny’n wir erbyn hyn. Er enghraifft, rydym ni’n gweld yn y Daily
Post fod yr un person yn adrodd ar newyddion y Cynulliad a’r newyddion
traffig—a ydy’r A55 ar gau y diwrnod hwnnw, a rhyw broblemau fel yna. Felly,
i fynd nôl at y diffyg democratiaeth yna, mae rhywbeth fel yna yn achosi
problemau mawr. O’m profiad i fel newyddiadurwr, un diwrnod roeddwn i’n
ysgrifennu straeon am beth oedd yn mynd ymlaen mewn pwyllgorau fel hyn, a’r
hanner awr wedyn roeddwn i’n ysgrifennu adroddiad ar griced a beth oedd yn
mynd ymlaen yng Ngerddi Sophia. Roedd gen i lot mwy o arbenigedd yn y
Cynulliad nag oedd gen i yn y criced, mae’n rhaid i mi gyfaddef. Ond dyna’r
math o bwysau mae’n newyddiadurwyr ni oddi dano fo. Mae’n mynd yn system bron
a bod yn rhyw fath o beiriant sosej, lle maen nhw jest yn ‘churn-io’ straeon
allan, un ar ôl y llall, drwy’r dydd, heb unrhyw amser i godi’r ffôn heb sôn
am adael eu desgiau a mynd allan a chyfweld â phobl wyneb yn wyneb.
|
In terms of the expertise,
even when I started, when I graduated from university and went on work
experience to places like the Western Mail and so on, you had
correspondents who had a patch or a specific brief, at that time. I don’t
know to what extent that is true today. For example, you see in the Daily
Post that the same person reports on Assembly news and on traffic
news—whether the A55 is closed on that particular day, and problems like
that. So, to go back to that democratic deficit, something like that does
cause major problems. From my experience as a journalist, one day I was
writing stories about what was going on in committees like this, and then
half an hour later I was writing reports on the cricket match at Sophia
Gardens. I had a great deal more expertise in the Assembly rather than the
cricket, I have to say. But that’s the kind of pressure that our journalists
are under. The system is almost turning into a kind of sausage factory where
they just churn these stories out, one after the other, day after day,
without ever having the time to pick up the phone, never mind leaving their
desks to meet people face to face.
|
[23]
Felly, rydw i’n meddwl, yn ogystal â’r cwestiwn
‘A ydym ni’n gallu talu newyddiadurwyr?’, mae hefyd y cwestiwn o ‘Faint o
newyddiadurwyr a ydym ni’n gallu eu talu?’ Os ydyn nhw lawr i’r esgyrn erbyn
hyn, efo rhyw fath o skeleton crew yn rhedeg ein papurau lleol a
rhanbarthol a chenedlaethol, rydym ni mewn sefyllfa wedyn lle nad ydy’r
newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol bwysig yna yn cael ei gwneud.
|
So, I think, as well as the
question of whether we can pay journalists, there’s the question of how many
journalists we can pay. If they’re down to the bare bones, with some sort of
skeleton staff running our regional and national papers, we’re in a situation
where that important investigatory journalism isn’t being done.
|
[24]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at Hannah nawr, felly efallai y bydd
cwestiynau am Delyn. [Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Okay. We’re going to move on to Hannah now, so some questions about Delyn,
possibly. [Laughter.]
|
[25] Hannah
Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. I don’t know if that was trying to persuade me to
be really nice in my questions now. [Laughter.] I’m friendly anyway.
|
09:45
|
[26] You’ve
already, in the opening, touched quite a bit on the decline in traditional
commercial print news, and the parallel increase in hyper-local news. You’ve
touched on it quite a bit, but if you could expand a little bit on the extent
to which that can mitigate the decline in traditional news. I’m particularly
keen to hear whether there are ways, with better support, that that can
address the democratic deficit we’re talking about as well.
|
[27]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Fe wnaf i fynd gyntaf. Fe wnaf i ateb yn
Gymraeg, achos fy mod i’n cael defnyddio’r iaith Gymraeg yn y fan yma. Mae’r
model economaidd sydd wedi bod yn cynnal newyddiaduraeth yn y wasg dros yr
ugeinfed ganrif, i bob pwrpas, wedi torri erbyn hyn, ac mae hynny yn golygu
bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl sut yr ydym ni’n gallu cynnal newyddiaduraeth fel
proffesiwn, a chynnal cylchrediad a chyrraedd pobl, a dod â gwybodaeth i
bobl, a thrafod y wybodaeth yna hefyd. Mae’n golygu bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl
mewn ffyrdd gwahanol.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Okay, I’ll go first on that. I’ll answer in Welsh, since
I do have the opportunity to do so here. The economic model that has
sustained press journalism over the twentieth century, to all intents and
purposes, is broken now, and that means that we do have to consider how we
can sustain journalism as a profession, and sustain circulation and reach
people, and bring information to people, and discuss that information, too.
It does mean that we have to think in new and different ways.
|
[28]
Nid yw pobl wedi stopio darllen ar hyn o bryd.
Fel rydym yn gwybod, mae pobl yn darllen yn fwy aml yn ddyddiol, ac yn
darllen ffynonellau sydd yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw fel newyddiaduraeth,
ac yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw fel newyddion. Felly, mae’r appetite neu
mae’r ysfa i gael gwybodaeth ac i gael darllen ac i gael mynd at y cyfryngau
a’r newyddion yn dal yna. Ond beth sy’n rhaid i ni fod yn glir ynglŷn ag
o, wrth i ni drio datblygu modelau newydd, ydy ein bod ni ddim yn ddibynnol
ar ddim ond unigolion, gwirfoddolwyr a phobl sydd ddim yn cael eu talu i
gynhyrchu hwn, a bod yna ddim buddsoddiad yn mynd i mewn i sut ydym ni’n
gallu cael model lle mae yna broffesiwn newyddiadurol yn bodoli. Felly, tra
rydym yn gallu defnyddio unigolion, pobl, dinasyddion, ac yn y blaen, i
hwyluso cylchredeg y newyddion neu gylchredeg straeon neu gylchredeg
gwybodaeth drwy eu tudalennau Facebook a Twitter, ac yn y blaen ac yn y
blaen, mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl ynglŷn â sut ydym ni yn cynhyrchu yr
wybodaeth a’r straeon yn y lle cyntaf.
|
People haven’t stopped
reading. As we know, people are reading more often on a daily basis, and are
reading sources that are presented to them as journalism, and sources that
are presented to them as news. Therefore, the appetite to access information
and to read information and to access journalism and the news is still there.
But what we have to be clear about, as we try to develop new models, is that
we don’t become reliant on individuals, volunteers and people who are unpaid
producing this material, and that there is no investment going into how we
can deliver a model where you have a journalistic profession. So, whilst we
can use individuals and citizens in order to facilitate the circulation of
news or the circulation of stories or information through their Facebook or
Twitter feeds, and so on and so forth, we also have to think about how we
produce that information and those stories in the first place.
|
[29]
Dr Jones: Mae gen i
bryderon mawr ynglŷn â gallu newyddion hyper-lleol i gymryd lle newyddiaduraeth
broffesiynol. Os ydych chi’n meddwl am newyddiadurwyr ar bapurau newydd, er
enghraifft, fe fyddan nhw wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel llywodraeth
leol, byddant wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel enllib, dirmyg llys, ac
yn y blaen. Felly, mae’n anodd iawn os nad oes gennych y sgiliau craidd
yna—wedi cael eich gyrru i ffwrdd ar gwrs, efallai, i ddysgu’r sgiliau
yma—mae’n anodd iawn wedyn i chi fedru torri straeon. Os nad ydych chi’n
gwybod y gyfraith, er enghraifft, yn ymwneud efo enllib neu ddirmyg llys, sut
ydych chi’n mynd i wybod os ydych chi’n cael cyhoeddi stori ai peidio? Sut
ydych chi’n gwybod beth sydd yn gyfreithlon? Sut ydych chi’n gwybod os ydych
chi’n cael adrodd ar gynnwys cyfarfod cyhoeddus, er enghraifft, neu ddatganiad
i’r wasg mewn cynhadledd i’r wasg gan yr heddlu?
|
Dr Jones: I have
major concerns about the ability of hyper-local news to take the place of
professional journalism. When you think about the journalists on a newspaper,
for example, they will have had training in such things as local government,
they’ll be trained in libel, contempt of court, and so on. So, it’s very
difficult if you don’t have those core skills—you may have been sent on a
course to learn those skills—then it’s very difficult for you to break
stories. If you don’t know the law, for example, relating to libel or
contempt of court, then you won’t know whether you can publish a story or
not. How will you know whether it’s legal? How will you be able to report on
the contents of a public meeting, for example, or a press release in a police
press conference?
|
[30]
Felly, mae gen i bryderon mawr iawn bod y
newyddion hyper-lleol yn mynd i allu camu mewn i’r blwch, ac nid yn unig
oherwydd yr adnoddau. Mae nifer o’r bobl sy’n ymwneud â newyddion hyper-lleol
yn bobl sydd efo swyddi llawn amser ar yr un pryd, ac nid oes ganddyn nhw yr
amser i fynd i ddigwyddiadau, nid oes ganddyn nhw yr
amser i fuddsoddi mewn newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol yn yr un modd ag y byddai
tîm da o newyddiadurwyr proffesiynol, gobeithio, efo. Mae
yna gwestiynau ynglŷn â’r materion o ran pa mor ddiduedd mae
newyddiadurwyr hyper-lleol yn mynd i fod hefyd, achos fel arfer maen nhw yn
mynd i fod yn gwneud y gwaith yn wirfoddol. Mae pobl sy’n gwneud y gwaith yn
wirfoddol fel arfer yn gwneud hynny oherwydd rhesymau yn ymwneud â rhyw duedd
wleidyddol. Er enghraifft, mae yna gwpwl o flogiau rwy’n eu dilyn yn yr ardal
rwy’n byw ynddi yn ne-orllewin Cymru sydd yn gwneud job da iawn o roi gwybod
i mi beth sy’n mynd ymlaen yn yr ardaloedd yna, fel yng Nghyngor Sir Gâr, er
enghraifft, ond y broblem ydy eu bod nhw fel arfer yn flogiau pleidiol y
naill ffordd neu’r llall. Mae yna ryw agenda wleidyddol ynddyn nhw beth
bynnag, ac maen nhw’n tueddu i ganolbwyntio eu dryll i gyfeiriad y pleidiau
nad ydynt yn cytuno efo nhw. Felly, mae yna lot o gwestiynau ynglŷn ag
amser, adnoddau ac arbenigedd mewn pethau fel dirmyg llys ac enllib, ac yn y
blaen, ac hefyd ar ben hynny yr ymateb pleidiol yma, sef bod lot o bobl sy’n
mynd i fod eisiau gwneud y gwaith yma’n wirfoddol ddim yn mynd i’w wneud o
allan o the goodness of their heart, mewn ffordd. Maen nhw’n mynd i’w
wneud o am eu bod nhw eisiau dylanwadu ar y drafodaeth gyhoeddus sydd yn mynd
ymlaen yr un pryd.
|
So, I do have major
concerns that hyper-local news isn’t going to be able to step up to the mark,
and not just with regard to the resources. Many people involved in
hyper-local news also have full-time jobs at the same time, and they don’t
have time to go to events, they don’t have the time to invest in
investigative journalism in the way that a good team of professional
journalists would, hopefully. There are questions about issues with regard to
the impartiality of hyper-local journalists, because usually they’re going to
be volunteers, and people who undertake this work voluntarily usually do so
because of reasons relating to some kind of political motivation. For
example, there are some blogs that I follow in the area in which I live in
south-west Wales that do a very good job of letting me know what’s happening
in those areas, such as in Carmarthenshire County Council, for example, but
the problem is that they’re party political blogs one way or the other. There
is a political agenda there, and they tend to focus on those particular
parties and the failings of those parties that they don’t agree with. So,
there is a question about the time, the resources and the expertise in such
issues as libel, contempt of court, and so on, and on top of that there’s this
partiality as well, that people who want to do this work voluntarily aren’t
just going to do it out of the goodness of their heart in a way. They’re
going to be doing it for the reason that they want to influence the public
discourse.
|
[31]
Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank
you.
|
[32] Hannah
Blythyn: I think you covered my other question.
|
[33]
Bethan Jenkins: Jest
cwestiwn clou. Rwy’n credu bod Elin wedi siarad am hyn yn gynharach. A allwch
chi jest esbonio tipyn bach ynglŷn â’ch gwefan newydd, Nation.Cymru? Sut
ydych chi wedi mynd ati i sefydlu honno? A oes arian wedi bod y tu ôl i
hynny, neu a ydy e’n hollol wirfoddol ar hyn o bryd?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Just
a brief question. I think that Elin mentioned this earlier. Can you just
explain a little more about your new website Nation.Cymru? How have you gone
about establishing that? Has there been some funding behind it, or is this
all entirely voluntary at present?
|
[34]
Dr Jones: Wel, mae’n
wefan wirfoddol. Beth wnaethom ni oedd, oherwydd nad oes gwasanaeth newyddion
cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, y pryder oedd gen i, a sawl un arall, oedd, o ran y
math o drafodaeth genedlaethol sy’n mynd rhagddi yn Gymraeg drwy wefannau fel
Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw, Barn ac yn y blaen, nad oes yr un math o
drafodaeth genedlaethol yn digwydd yn Saesneg, a bod hynny’n cyfrannu at y
diffyg democrataidd sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd. Felly, y bwriad oedd
sefydlu gwasanaeth newyddion cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, a fyddai’n cael ei
redeg ddim er elw. Rwy’n meddwl mai rhan o’r broblem gyda nifer o’r papurau
masnachol sy’n cael eu cynnal gan Trinity Mirror, er enghraifft, yw eu
bod nhw’n gorfod cynhyrchu lot fawr o arian ar gyfer eu shareholders.
Felly, drwy greu rhywbeth dim er elw, er enghraifft, o leiaf byddai unrhyw
arian a fyddai’n dod allan o’r peth yn cael ei fuddsoddi’n syth nôl mewn i’r
newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol.
|
Dr Jones: Well, it
is a voluntary website. What we did was, because there’s a lack of a national
news service in English, the concern that I had, and several others, in terms
of the kind of national debate that’s being had in Welsh, through websites
such as Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw and Barn and so on, was that there
wasn’t perhaps that same kind of debate happening in English, and that
contributes to the democratic deficit that we currently have. So, the
intention was to establish a news service on a national basis in English that
would be run as a not-for-profit concern. I think that part of the problem
that we have with the several of the commercial newspapers that we have under
Trinity Mirror, for example, is that they have to generate a lot of money for
their shareholders. So, by creating something that was not-for-profit, at
least, any kind of money derived from it would be reinvested back into
investigative journalism.
|
[35]
Y bwriad oedd lansio’r wefan yma tua diwedd yr
haf, pan fydd tymor y Cynulliad yn ailddechrau, ond, yn sgil cyhoeddi’r etholiad cyffredinol, dyma ni’n
penderfynu y byddai hynny’n amser da i wthio’r cwch i’r dŵr, er mwyn
cymryd mantais o’r holl ddiddordeb gwleidyddol fyddai yno ar y pryd. Mae e
wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus. Rydym ni eisoes wedi cael dros 1,000 o bobl
yn ein dilyn ar Facebook, ac, ers lansio bythefnos yn ôl, mae dros 45,000 o
bobl wedi ymweld â’r safle. Felly, mae’r ymateb wedi bod yn dda iawn hyd yma.
Mi wnaethom ni godi, rhwng mis Ionawr a rŵan, ryw £4,500 drwy bobl yn
rhoi rhoddion tuag at y wefan yma. Mae’n dipyn o arian ac yn dangos bod yna
deimladau cryf yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r diffyg gwasanaethau newyddion
cenedlaethol sydd yng Nghymru. Ond mae hefyd yn amlwg yn ffigwr rhy fach i
fedru cyflogi newyddiadurwyr. Rwy’n meddwl bydd angen o leiaf ryw £75,000 er
mwyn gallu cyflogi newyddiadurwyr i weithio’n broffesiynol ar y safle. Ond
beth rydym ni’n gobeithio’i wneud yw, o’r arian yna nad ydym yn ei wario ar
ffurfwedd y wefan, a chreu’r feddalwedd, ac yn y blaen, sydd y tu cefn i’r
wefan, rydym ni wedyn yn buddsoddi efo’r newyddiaduraeth freelance, a
rhoi’r cyfle i newyddiadurwyr freelance ymchwilio mewn i faterion yn
ymwneud â gwleidyddiaeth Cymru, a’r Cynulliad, a llywodraeth leol, ac yn
blaen, mewn rhagor o fanylder.
|
The intention was to launch
this website towards the end of the summer, when the Assembly reconvenes,
but, as a result of the announcement of the snap general election, we decided
it was a good time to launch the site, because of the level of political
interest at that time. It’s been very successful. We’ve already had over
1,000 people following us on Facebook, and, since launching a fortnight ago,
more than 45,000 people have visited the site. So, the response has been very
good so far. Between January and now, we’ve raised around £4,500 through
donations to the website. It’s a significant amount of money, which shows
that there are strong feelings in Wales about the lack of national news
services in Wales. But it’s also too small a figure to be able to employ
journalists. I think we’d need at least £75,000 to be able to employ
journalists to work professionally on the site. But what we hope to do is to
use the funds that we don’t use on the website itself, and the development of
the software, and so on, behind the sites, by investing them in freelance
journalists, and to give those journalists the opportunity to investigate
issues relating to politics in Wales, the Assembly, local government, and so
on, in more detail.
|
[36]
Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.
Ac mi wnes i ddwyn cwestiwn Dai, sori, felly, a oes mwy o gwestiynau? [Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank
you. And I stole Dai’s question, so I do apologise. Do you have any further
questions? [Laughter.]
|
[37]
Dai Lloyd: Roedd hi’n
anrhydedd eich clywed chi’n ei gyflwyno mewn modd mor ddeheuig, Gadeirydd. [Chwerthin.]
|
Dai Lloyd: It was an
honour to see you express it so skilfully, Chair. [Laughter.]
|
[38]
Bethan Jenkins: Dai,
plis caria mlaen gyda’r cwestiynu. [Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan Jenkins: Please
continue with your questions, Dai. [Laughter.]
|
[39]
Dai Lloyd: Roedd gyda
fi ddiddordeb yn beth roeddet ti’n ei ddweud, ac rwyt ti wedi ei nodi yn dy
bapur di hefyd, ynglŷn â’r ffaith mai ychydig o gymhelliad sydd i
wirfoddolwyr adrodd mewn ffordd sydd yn niwtral yn wleidyddol. Felly, yn
dilyn o’r gosodiad yna—a newyddiaduraeth hyperleol ydy hynny, yn naturiol—a
ydy’r system yn wahanol efo’r wasg fasnachol? A ydych chi’n credu bod y wasg
fasnachol allan fanna yn niwtral yn wleidyddol? Buaswn i’n fodlon dadlau i’r
gwrthwyneb yn fanna, ond rwyf i jest yn rhoi y gosodiad yna gerbron. Os ydych
chi eisiau dweud bod pobl sydd yn newyddiadura yn dra lleol felly yn mynd i
fod yn wleidyddol ragfarnllyd mewn ffordd, byddwn i’n fodlon dadlau bod pob
newyddiaduraeth yn wleidyddol ragfarnllyd. Rwyf i jest yn rhoi hynny allan
fan yna i chi gael ateb.
|
Dai Lloyd: I was
interested in what you said, and which you noted in your paper also, about
the fact that there is little encouragement for volunteers to report in a way
that is politically neutral. So, following on from that point, which, of
course, relates to hyperlocal journalism, is the system different with the
commercial press? Do you think that the commercial press out there is
politically neutral? I would perhaps say not, but I’m just putting that
forward. If you are saying that people who are involved in hyperlocal journalism
are going to be politically biased in some way, well I would argue that all
journalism has some sort of political bias. I’m just chucking that out there
for you.
|
[40]
Dr Jones: Buaswn i’n
dadlau ei bod hi’n amhosib cynhyrchu newyddiaduraeth sydd ddim yn rhagfarnllyd.
Mewn ffordd, rydych chi’n gallu ysgrifennu stori newyddion mewn ffordd sydd
yn ymddangosiadol ddiduedd, ond, yn y pen draw, rydych chi’n gorfod
penderfynu beth mae’r stori amdano, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu pa
ffeithiau rydych chi’ mynd i’w cynnwys, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu ym mha
drefn mae’r ffeithiau. Rwy’n gwybod bod lot yn dadlau, ar hyn o bryd, fod y
wasg fasnachol, ddim yn gwbl—. Mae’r geiriau bias a fake news yma yn cael eu taflu o gwmpas lot. Mae hynny’n wir yn amlwg yn achos rhai papurau. Nid wyf i’n meddwl y
buasai unrhyw un yn edrych ar dudalen flaen y Daily Express a’r Daily
Mail, er enghraifft, neu’r Daily Mirror, a dadlau nad oes tuedd
amlwg wleidyddol yna. Ac mae hynny hefyd yn arwydd o wendid masnachol y wasg,
oherwydd beth sy’n digwydd erbyn hyn ydy, oherwydd bod
papurau newydd yn llai hyfyw yn fasnachol, yr unig bobl sy’n mynd i fod yn
berchen ar bapurau newydd ydy pobl sydd eisiau eu defnyddio nhw fel rhyw fath
o geg offeryn er mwyn cael eu safbwynt nhw allan.
|
Dr Jones: I would
argue that it’s impossible to generate journalism that doesn’t have some kind
of bias, because you could write a news story in way that appears to be
impartial, but, ultimately, you do have to decide what the story is about,
you have to decide which facts you’re going to include, and in what order
those facts appear. I know that many people argue at present that the
commercial press is not—. You have the words ‘bias’ and ‘fake news’ being
bandied about a lot. That’s obviously true in the case of some newspapers. If
you look at the front page of the Daily Express and the Daily Mail or
the Daily Mirror, you couldn’t argue that there wasn’t a kind of
obvious political bias there. But that’s also a sign of the commercial
weakness of the press, because what happens now is that, because newspapers
are less commercially viable, the only people who are going to own newspapers
are the people who want to use them as a kind of mouthpiece to get their
point of view out there.
|
[41]
O ran darlledu, rwy’n cytuno bod yna rhywfaint o
duedd o fewn, er enghraifft, y BBC, ond rwy’n meddwl fod y duedd yna oherwydd
o le y mae’r newyddion yn dod mewn gwirionedd, ac mae newyddiadurwyr yn
naturiol yn mynd i gyfeiriad y sefydliadau gwleidyddol sydd yn cynhyrchu lot
o newyddion iddyn nhw yn eithaf rhwydd. Felly, rwy’n
meddwl, er enghraifft, os ydych chi’n edrych ar y ffaith fod gennym ni
broblem yng Nghymru bod y newyddion yn San Steffan yn cael lot mawr iawn o
sylw tra bo newyddion o’r Senedd, er enghraifft, ddim, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny
oherwydd bod corfforaethau fel y BBC i raddau wedi adeiladu eu hunain o
gwmpas y sefydliadau sydd yn rhoi lot fawr o newyddion iddyn nhw. Er enghraifft, roedd yna ddadl yn yr Alban ar
driniaeth y BBC o refferendwm annibyniaeth yr Alban a bod yna lot o duedd yn
fanna, ond rwy’n meddwl fod hynny yn fwy i wneud efo’r ffaith fod holl
newyddiadurwyr gorau’r BBC yn San Steffan yn chwilio am straeon yn fanna
achos dyna’r ffynhonnell straeon orau a oedd yn cyrraedd mwy o’r boblogaeth
ac a oedd yn fwy perthnasol i boblogaeth y Deyrnas Unedig.
|
In terms of broadcasting, I
agree that there is some kind of bias within, for example, the BBC, but I
think that bias is there because of where the news is coming from, and
journalists will naturally gravitate towards the political institutions that
generate a great deal of news for them relatively easily. So, I think, for
example, if you look at the fact that we have an issue in Wales that the news
at Westminster receives a great deal of attention, whereas the news from the
Senedd doesn’t, I think that that is the result of the fact that corporations
such as the BBC have built themselves around the institutions that generate a
great deal of news for them. For example, there was a debate in Scotland on
the BBC's treatment of the Scottish independence referendum and that there
was a great deal of bias there, but I think that was more to do with the fact
that all the best BBC journalists were based in Westminster and that was the
best source of news and information that was reaching more of the population
and was more pertinent to the population of the United Kingdom.
|
[42]
Felly, nid wyf i’n meddwl bod yna duedd bwriadol
o fewn sefydliadau fel y BBC. Rwy’n meddwl ei fod jest yn dod o’r ffaith bod
y sefydliadau newyddiadurol wedi adeiladu eu hunain o gwmpas y sefydliadau
gwleidyddol oherwydd bod y Deyrnas Unedig yn wlad sydd wedi ei chanoli’n
wleidyddol i’r fath raddau ei bod yn anochel wedyn fod yna rhyw fath o dwll
du y mae’r holl newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu sugno tuag ato fo, felly. Felly, buaswn i’n cytuno, ac nid wyf yn dadlau am eiliad bod y
newyddiaduraeth fasnachol, neu sydd wedi cael ei hariannu’n gyhoeddus yn y
Deyrnas Unedig, yn ddiduedd. Rwyf i jest yn meddwl, efo’r newyddion hyperleol,
fod hyd yn oed llai o gymhelliad i fod yn ddiduedd. Beth rydych chi’n ei gael
ydy twf pethau fel rydym ni wedi’u gweld yn yr Unol Daleithiau, fel Breitbart
News, sef gwasanaethau newyddion wedi eu sefydlu’n gyfan gwbl er mwyn gwthio
agenda rhyw ochr wleidyddol neu ryw blaid wleidyddol.
|
Therefore, I do not think
that there is a deliberate tendency within organisations such as the BBC. I
think it's just down to the fact that the journalistic institutions have
built themselves around the political institutions because the United Kingdom
is a country that has been centralised politically to such an extent that it
is inevitable then that there is some kind of black hole that all of the
journalists are being sucked into. So, I would agree, and I wouldn’t argue
for a second that commercial journalism or publicly funded journalism in the
United Kingdom is unbiased. But I think that, with hyperlocal news, there is
even less incentive to be impartial. What you get is the growth of things as
we’ve seen in the United States, sites such as Breitbart News, namely news
services that have been established solely to push the agenda of a political
side or a political party.
|
[43]
Os ydych chi’n meddwl am paham wnaeth y Blaid
Lafur gystal yn yr etholiad sydd newydd fod, os ydych chi’n edrych ar
ddylanwad gwefannau fel The Canary a Skuawk Box, a rhyw bethau fel yna ar
Facebook, roedd y gwefannau hyn yn cyrraedd miliynau o bobl. Nid oeddwn i’n dilyn un o’r gwefannau yma, ond roeddent yn ymddangos
yn gyson yn fy ffrwd newyddiadurol oherwydd bod fy ffrindiau i yn y eu rhannu
nhw’n gyson ac yn meddwl eu bod nhw’n ffynonellau dibynadwy a di-duedd ar
gyfer y newyddion. Felly, rwy’n meddwl, pan fydd
newyddion yn mynd yn wirfoddol, rydym ni wedyn yn gweld sefyllfa lle
efallai—. Mae’n iach i raddau oherwydd, trwy gael nifer fawr o safleoedd gyda
thuedd ar-lein, efallai ei fod o’n dadwneud rhywfaint o’r duedd mwy tuag at
yr ochr adain dde sydd yn y wasg fasnachol a’r papurau newydd Prydeinig
felly. Ond y broblem wedyn ydy eich bod chi’n cael rhyw fath o siambrau
atsain yn datblygu a bod yn hollol gyndyn mai nhw sydd yn gywir oherwydd mai
dim ond un safbwynt ar y newyddion y maen nhw’n ei gael gan y ffynhonnell
newyddion y maen nhw wedi’i dewis.
|
If you think about why the
Labour Party did so well in the recent election, if you look at the influence
of websites such as The Canary and Skuawk Box, and others on Facebook, those
websites reached millions of people. I didn’t follow any of those sites, but
they did appear frequently in my news stream because my friends were sharing
them and thought that they were dependable and impartial sources of news. So,
I think that, when news does turn into a voluntary concern, then I think we
see a situation where—. It’s healthy to some extent because, by having a
great many online sites with perhaps their bias and a particular line, then
that might undo somewhat the tendency more towards the right wing in the
commercial press and the UK newspapers. But the problem then is that you get
echo chambers developing and people are convinced that they’re right because
they’ve only heard one point of view from the news source that they’ve
chosen.
|
[44]
Bethan Jenkins: Elin.
|
[45]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Jest i ychwanegu’n fyr iawn ynglŷn â didueddrwydd, rydym ni’n
gyfarwydd efo’r model traddodiadol bod y didueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau darlledu
i fod i gael ei gynnal, yn sicr, ar draws cyfres o raglenni neu o fewn
rhaglen benodol ei hun, onid ydym? Felly, mae gennym ni fodel sydd yn rhoi
cyfrifoldeb ar gynhyrchydd y newyddion i roi didueddrwydd i mewn, p’un a ydym
ni’n meddwl bod hynny’n gweithio’n effeithiol bob tro neu beidio. Mae hynny i
ryw raddau yn fater arall, ond dyna ydy’r egwyddor sydd efo newyddiaduriaeth
ddarlledu yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: If I could just briefly add to that, in terms of
impartiality, we are familiar with the traditional model where impartiality
in the broadcast media is to be maintained certainly across a series of
programmes or within specific individual programmes, aren’t we? So, we have a
model that places the responsibility on the news producer to provide
impartiality, whether or not we think that always works effectively. That, to
a certain extent, is another issue, but that is the principle in terms of
broadcast journalism in the UK.
|
[46]
Tra, wrth gwrs, efo’r wasg brint, nid ydy’r
gofyniad yna yno o gwbl, ac, wrth gwrs, beth ydym ni’n ei weld wedyn ydy
mai’r safbwyntiau gwleidyddol yna sydd efo’r modd i gyrraedd yr arian
angenrheidiol neu’r adnoddau angenrheidiol i gynnal a chreu gwasg ydy’r
safbwyntiau gwleidyddol yna sydd wedyn yn gallu creu papurau dyddiol a chreu
penawdau dyddiol yn brint, ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n mynd i mewn i’r
byd digidol.
|
Whereas, with the print
media, that requirement simply doesn’t exist, and what we then see is that it
is those political views that have the means to access the necessary funds or
the necessary resource to create and maintain a press that appear in daily
newspapers and generate print headlines, and, of course, that also filters
through into the digital environment.
|
10:00
|
[47]
Felly, un o’r cwestiynau, efallai, ydy ystyried,
wel, ocê, mae yna draddodiad o ddidueddrwydd, bwriad o ddidueddrwydd, yn y
cyfryngau darlledu, ond dim traddodiad o ddidueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau print.
Ond, pan fydd popeth yn dod at ei gilydd, fel y mae wedi gwneud ers y 10 i 15
mlynedd diwethaf yma, yna, ble mae’r ffiniau yna i’r person sy’n defnyddio’r
cyfryngau, onid e, a’r person sy’n eu darllen? A ydy’r newyddion cytbwys sydd
i fod i gael ei gyflwyno drwy’r BBC ac ITV ac yn y blaen, a Sky hefyd wrth
gwrs, i fod wedyn i eistedd ochr yn ochr â newyddion sydd ddim yn cael ei
gyflwyno mewn ffordd gytbwys a heb unrhyw fwriad i’w gyflwyno yn gytbwys? Ond
mae’r darllenydd yn edrych ar bopeth ar yr un pryd a ddim o angenrheidrwydd
yn gwahaniaethu bod ‘hwn’ wedi cael ei gynhyrchu mewn system ddiduedd a bod
‘hwn’ wedi cael ei gynhyrchu mewn system sydd yn dweud yn glir iawn nad ydyn
nhw’n ddiduedd, onid e? A ydy’r eglurder yna yn dod drwodd yn ddigonol?
|
So, one
of the questions, perhaps, is to consider, well, okay, there is a tradition
of impartiality, an intention to be impartial, in the broadcast media, but
there is no such tradition in the print media. But, when everything comes
together, as it has done over the past 10 to 15 years, then where are those
lines for those people using that material and reading that material? Is the
balanced news that is supposed to be provided through the BBC and ITV and so
on, as well as Sky of course, supposed to then sit alongside news that is not
presented in a balanced way, but is presented without any intention of
providing any impartiality? But the consumer looks at all of these things
simultaneously and does not differentiate between one thing that has been
produced within rules of impartiality and another that says very clearly that
it is not impartial. Is that clarity available to the consumer?
|
[48]
Beth ydy’r entry level i fynd i mewn i
greu papur? Pan wyf i’n dweud ‘papur’, nid wyf i’n sôn am bapur, yn amlwg;
rwy’n sôn am newyddiaduriaeth, neu bapurau newydd, neu ffynonellau
newyddion—newyddion chwaraeon, newyddion diwylliannol a newyddion
gwleidyddol. A ydy’r entry level yna yn gallu cymell, ddywedwn ni,
rywun fel Ifan, neu bobl o wahanol safbwyntiau eraill, i fedru mynd i mewn
i’r farchnad yna i greu, i gyfrannu at y plwraliaeth sydd gennym ni? Achos
nid ydy’r plwraliaeth yn mynd i gael ei greu drwy fod un papur newydd yn
penderfynu, ‘O, rydym ni am fod yn fwy cytbwys’, nac ydy? Mae’r plwraliaeth
yn mynd i fod oherwydd bod yna fwy o leisiau yn cyrraedd y lle marchnad yna.
|
What is the entry level in
terms of creating a paper? When I use the word ‘paper’, I’m not just talking
about hard copy; I’m talking about journalism, or newspapers, or news
sources—of sports news, cultural news and political news, published in all
sorts of ways. Is that entry-level encouraging people, say, such as Ifan, or
people from different backgrounds and views, to go into that market in order
to contribute to the plurality that we have? Because the plurality isn’t
going to be generated by having one paper deciding, ‘Well, we’re going to be
more balanced’, is it? You get that plurality because there are more voices
contributing to that marketplace.
|
[49]
A ydy’r entry level yn rhy uchel? Mae rhai
ohonoch chi efallai yn gwybod, ynglŷn â fy nghefndir i, fy mod i wedi
bod yn rhan o’r cwmni a oedd yn trio sefydlu papur dyddiol yn yr iaith
Gymraeg dros—wel, pryd gwnaethom ni gychwyn? Tua 1999 neu rywbeth fel yna y
gwnaethom ni gychwyn arno fo fel prosiect ymchwil i weld pa mor bosibl a
hyfyw y byddai fo, a beth oedd y modelau a oedd yn digwydd mewn gwledydd
eraill. Ac, yn ystod y cyfnod yna, tra oeddem ni’n trio rhoi cwmni poblogaidd
at ei gilydd, gyda chyfranddaliadau eang, gwnaethom ni lwyddo i godi tua
£350,000-£375,000 mewn arian cyfalaf, a swm tipyn yn llai wedyn mewn arian
refeniw, i drio dod â phobl at ei gilydd i drio cyrraedd yr entry level
yna, i drio gwneud ymgais o ddifrif.
|
Now, is the entry level too
high? Well, some of you will know, perhaps, about my background, that I was
part of the company that strived to establish a Welsh language daily
newspaper, over—. When did we start that? I think it was around 1999 that we
started that research project to see how viable and possible it would be, and
what were the models in other nations. And, during that period, while we were
trying to put a company together with a broad range of shareholders, we
managed to raise around £350,000-£375,000 in capital funds, and a smaller
amount in revenue, in order to try and bring people together to reach that
entry-level, to make a serious attempt at establishing a newspaper.
|
[50]
Felly, mae’r lefel, sef faint o gyfalaf sydd ei
angen arnoch chi i ddechrau rhywbeth lle y byddwch chi maes o law yn mynd i
allu talu newyddiadurwyr yn uchel iawn, iawn, iawn. Ac felly, mae hynny’n un
o’r problemau, rydw i’n meddwl, ynglŷn â sut i gael gwahanol leisiau yn
y byd newyddiadurol.
|
So, the level of capital
required in order to start something where, in due course, you’ll be able to
pay journalists is very high indeed. And that’s one of the problems, I think,
in terms of how you bring different voices into journalism.
|
[51]
A gaf i ddweud un peth byr iawn? Mae’n ddrwg gen
i. Ynglŷn â’r hyperleol, beth ydw i wedi bod yn ei weld sydd yn digwydd
mewn gwlad arall, Gwlad y Basg, yn y cyfnod diweddar, neu yn y pump i saith
mlynedd diwethaf, ydy tra bo’r byd, fel petai, yn sôn mwy a mwy am yr
hyperleol yn y cyfnod yna, beth sydd wedi digwydd i’w gwasg nhw yn fanna ydy
eu bod nhw wedi mynd o’r hyperleol fel y buasem ni’n meddwl amdano fo, fel
lefel isel, isel iawn—fel lefel papurau bro, ddywedwn ni. Maen nhw wedi dod
â’r papurau bro at ei gilydd yn yr ardaloedd yna, a’r radio lleol at ei
gilydd. Hefyd, mae ganddyn nhw draddodiad o deledu lleol ers dros 20 mlynedd,
25 mlynedd. Maen nhw wedi dod a ‘consolidate-io’ y lefelau lleol un lefel yn
uwch, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi caniatáu iddyn nhw, yn hytrach na bod ganddyn
nhw bapur bro sy’n gwasanaethau, efallai, 7,000 o bobl neu 12,000 o bobl, neu
rywbeth fel yna, symud i fyny i ddod â chwpl ohonyn nhw at ei gilydd fel eu
bod nhw’n gwasanaethu poblogaeth o tua 70,000 o bobl, sef, yn eu hachos nhw,
dalgylch ysbyty, neu rywbeth fel yna. Ac mae hynny wedi caniatáu iddyn nhw
symud i fod yn fwy proffesiynol o ran beth maen nhw’n ei wneud. Felly, yn
hytrach na bod yn grwpiau bychain, atomeiddiedig, mewn ffordd, o bapurau bro
ac o radios lleol, maen nhw wedi dod at ei gilydd, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi
newid y ffordd y mae eu newyddiadurwyr nhw yn gweithio. Maen nhw’n gweithio
ar draws y platforms, ond maen nhw hefyd yn gallu, efallai, arbenigo
mewn maes fel iechyd hefyd. Felly, nid yw symud reit i
lawr i’r lefel waelod o’r hyperleol wastad yn trend sydd yn digwydd ym
mhob man.
|
May I just make one
brief comment? I do apologise. On the hyperlocal, what I’ve been seeing
happening in another country, the Basque Country, in recent years, or over
the past five to seven years, is that, whilst the world is discussing the
hyperlocal, what’s happened to their press in the Basque Country is that they
have moved away from the hyperlocal as we would think of it, as a very
low-level—the papurau bro level, if you like. They’ve brought the papurau
bro together in those areas, the local radio has also been brought in,
and they have a tradition of local television that has been established for
over 20 or 25 years. They have consolidated all of those local levels at the
next level up, which has meant that, rather than them having a papur bro
that serves 7,000 people, or 12,000 people, they have been able to move that
to another level in bringing these together, serving a population of some
70,000 people, which is the catchment area for a hospital, let’s say. And
that’s allowed them to move to being more professional in their activities.
Therefore, rather than being very small, atomised groups of papurau bro
and local radio stations, they’ve consolidated, and that’s changed the way in
which their journalists work. They work across those platforms, but they can
also specialise in an area such as health. So, moving right down to that base
level of the hyperlocal isn’t always going to be a trend that’ll happen
everywhere.
|
[52]
Bethan Jenkins:
Unrhyw beth arall?
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Anything else?
|
[53]
Dai Lloyd: Na, bendigedig.
|
Dai Lloyd: No,
excellent.
|
[54]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jeremy.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Jeremy.
|
[55]
Jeremy Miles: Diolch.
Dychmygwch wefan sydd yn darparu sylwebaeth ar faterion cyfoes—efallai mai
eich gwefan chi yw hon—a hefyd yn darparu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol, ac
yn gwneud hynny trwy gyflogi newyddiadurwyr, ac yn cyfrannu, felly, at y
gyhoeddfa Gymreig mewn ffordd go iawn, mewn ffordd at scale. Beth
fyddai ei angen o ran adnoddau ac o ran model busnes i alluogi i hynny
ddigwydd—naill ai mewn ffordd sy’n creu elw neu, yn ôl eich model chi, ar
sail ffurf nid er elw? Faint o swm o arian ydych chi’n trafod? Ac a oes model
busnes masnachol sy’n gallu cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw, yn eich barn chi?
|
Jeremy Miles: Thank
you. Imagine a website that provides commentary on contemporary
issues—perhaps this is your website—and provides investigative journalism,
and does that by employing journalists, and contributing, therefore, to the
Welsh public sphere in a genuine manner, at scale. What would be needed in
terms of resources and a business model to enable that to happen—either in a
way that generates profit or, in terms of your model, as a not-for-profit
model? What kinds of sums of money are you talking about? And is there a
commercial business model that can reach that point, in your opinion?
|
[56]
Dr Jones: Roeddwn i’n
olygydd Golwg360 am gyfnod. Rwy’n meddwl ei bod tipyn bach yn wahanol yn
Saesneg. Rwy’n meddwl bod mwy o sgôp i wasanaeth newyddion sy’n derbyn arian
cyhoeddus yn Saesneg. Mae gennych chi fwy o arian drwy hysbysebion ac yn y
blaen, er mwyn ategu’r arian a fyddai’n dod i mewn yn gyhoeddus.
|
Dr Jones: I was
editor of Golwg360 for a period. I do think that it’s slightly different in
the English language. I think there would be more scope for a news service
that receives public funds in English. You would generate income through
advertisements and so on, in order to supplement the public funds.
|
[57]
Y broblem efo Golwg360 i raddau oedd, yn rhannol,
fe wnaeth lansio yn syth ar ôl y chwalfa ariannol. Felly, roedd arian
hysbysebu cyhoeddus yn eithaf prin beth bynnag. Ond, hefyd, ar ben hynny, yn
draddodiadol, mae’r wasg Gymraeg wedi cael trafferthion yn denu hysbysebwyr.
I raddau, nid ydyn nhw’n deall buddion hysbysebu yn Gymraeg, mewn gwirionedd.
|
The problem with Golwg360
to a certain extent was that, partially, it launched immediately after the
financial crash. Therefore, advertising funding was relatively scarce in any
case. But, traditionally, the Welsh-medium press has had difficulty in
attracting advertisers, to a certain extent because they simply don’t
understand that one can benefit through advertising through the medium of
Welsh.
|
[58]
Mae’n anodd; nid wyf eisiau gwneud rhyw fath o
Diane Abbott a jest tynnu rhyw ffigur allan o nunlle. Ond, rwy’n meddwl bod
yna rhyw fath o—. Roedd Golwg360 yn cael £200,000. Roedd hynny’n galluogi,
mewn gwirionedd, i fi a rhyw ddau newyddiadurwr arall fod wrthi ar unrhyw
adeg benodol yn ystod y dydd.
|
It’s difficult; I don’t
want to do a Diane Abbott and pluck a figure out of the air. But I think that
there’s—. Golwg360 received £200,000. That enabled me and two other
journalists to be working at any specific time during the day.
|
[59]
Roedd hynny’n golygu hefyd bod angen
newyddiadurwyr i fod yn rhydd er mwyn dod i mewn yn gynnar iawn yn y bore er
mwyn paratoi pethau ar gyfer pryd fyddai pobl yn troi eu cyfrifiaduron
ymlaen, a hefyd bod rhywun angen bod yna yn eithaf hwyr gyda’r nos hefyd, a
hefyd bod angen aelodau o staff mewn ar benwythnosau—dau aelod o staff ar
ddydd Sadwrn ac un ar ddydd Sul. Roedd hynny am £200,000.
|
That also meant that we
needed journalists to be free in order to come in very early in the morning
to prepare things for when people switch their computers on, and we needed
people there late at night too, in order to have cover, and we also needed
weekend cover—two members of staff on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. That
was all for £200,000.
|
[60]
Felly, fel roeddwn i’n dweud, nid oeddwn i’n
teimlo bod yr adnoddau yna yn ddigonol er mwyn gallu cynhyrchu
newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol—
|
As I said, I didn’t think
that those resources were sufficient to produce investigative journalism—
|
[61]
Jeremy Miles: Nid
oeddech chi ddim, neu—?
|
Jeremy Miles: You
didn’t or—?
|
[62]
Dr Jones: Nid oedden
nhw ddim yn ddigonol er mwyn cynhyrchu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol o safon
uchel. Roeddem ni’n cynhyrchu tua 30 stori y diwrnod rhwng dau neu dri ohonom
ni. Felly, fel rydych chi’n gallu dychmygu, roeddem ni’n gorfod mynd drwyddyn
nhw yn eithaf cyflym—ffonau wrth y ddau glust, mewn ffordd.
|
Dr Jones: No, I
didn’t think that was sufficient to provide high-quality investigative
journalism. We produced some 30 stories a day between two or three people.
So, as you can imagine, we had to get through that quite quickly, and you had
a phone to each ear, very often.
|
[63]
Beth rwyf wedi bod yn ei wneud dros y flwyddyn
ddiwethaf yw mynd o gwmpas yn cyfweld newyddiadurwyr o BBC Cymru Fyw,
Golwg360, Barn ac O’r Pedwar Gwynt, a’r neges rwyf wedi’i chael
gan bob un ohonyn nhw ydy: ‘Rydym yn cyfrannu rhywbeth at y sffêr gyhoeddus
Gymreig, ond nid ydym ni’n gallu gwneud newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol’—yn
enwedig gyda’r gofynion cynyddol erbyn hyn am gynnwys aml-gyfrwng hefyd; mae
mwy a mwy o bobl yn disgwyl cael fideos a chlipiau sain, ac yn y blaen.
|
What I’ve been doing over
the past year is that I’ve been interviewing journalists from BBC Cymru Fyw,
Golwg360, Barn and O’r Pedwar Gwynt, and the message that I’ve
heard from each and every one of them is: ‘We do contribute something to the
public sphere in Wales, but we can’t carry out investigative
journalism’—particularly with the increasing demands for multimedia content;
more and more people expect to see videos and audio clips, and so on and so
forth.
|
[64]
Mae pethau’n amlwg yn mynd i fod yn rhatach yn yr
oes ddigidol nag y bydden nhw wedi bod, er enghraifft, yn trio sefydlu
rhywbeth fel Y Byd, lle mae lot o gost. Y rheswm nad ydym wedi cael
gwasanaeth newyddion yn Saesneg yng Nghymru drwy ei hoes ydy oherwydd bod
Cymru yn wlad fynyddig iawn gyda chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth anodd iawn rhwng
y de a’r gogledd. Felly, fe fyddai’n anodd cael y papur allan i Gymru, a
hefyd y ffaith fod poblogaeth Cymru yn weddol o fach—ac oherwydd ei bod yn
wlad weddol dlawd sydd ddim yn apelio lot at hysbysebwyr, o’i chymharu efo
llefydd fel Llundain, er enghraifft.
|
It’s clear that things are
cheaper in the digital age than they would have been, for example, in
establishing a newspaper such as Y Byd, where there are a lot of
costs. The reason why we haven’t had an English language news service in
Wales is that Wales has very difficult geographical issues in terms of links
between north and south. It would be very difficult to distribute a national
newspaper—and also the fact that the population of Wales is relatively small,
and that it’s a relatively poor nation, which doesn’t really appeal to
advertisers in comparison to somewhere like London, for example.
|
[65]
Ond, rwy’n meddwl, oherwydd yr oes ddigidol,
efallai bod lot o’r problemau o ran dosbarthu wedi cael eu lleddfu, i raddau
helaeth. Felly, nid wyf yn meddwl y byddai’r gost o lansio rhywbeth mor uchel
ag y byddai wedi bod i rywbeth fel Y Byd, er enghraifft. Ond, os ydych
eisiau gwneud rhywbeth yn Saesneg, yn amlwg, byddai scale y peth yn
llawer mwy. Tua faint o gopïau oeddech chi’n meddwl argraffu o Y Byd?
|
But, I do think that, in
the digital age, many of those distribution problems have been mitigated to a
great extent. I don’t think the cost of launching something would be as high
as it would have been for Y Byd, for example. But, if you wanted to do
it in English, the scale would be far greater, of course. Around how many
copies would you have expected to print of Y Byd?
|
[66]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Roeddem ni’n sôn am o gwmpas 20,000. Dyna beth roeddem ni’n meddwl.
Hefyd, roeddem ni’n sôn am drosiant o gwmpas £1 miliwn. Wrth
gwrs, mae hyn yn sbel yn ôl, onid yw? Mae hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus yn
rhan allweddol o fodel busnes ar gyfer rhywbeth fel hyn, achos bod yr
hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus wedyn yn cynnig llif o refeniw sy’n dod i mewn.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: We were talking around 20,000. That’s what we thought. We
also talked about a turnover of around £1 million. Of course, this is
a long time ago, isn’t it? And public sector advertisements would be a key
component of the business model for something like this, because those public
sector advertisements would then provide a revenue stream.
|
[67]
Jeremy Miles: Ar y
testun yma, rydym ni wedi cael tystiolaeth y dylai hysbysebion cyhoeddus fod
ar gael i newyddiaduraeth hyperleol a phob math o bethau, a hefyd defnyddio
ffynhonnell arian cychwynnol—rhyw fath o start-up fund—lle byddai pobl
yn gallu cystadlu am yr arian. Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth hefyd am
gynlluniau lleddfu trethi ac ati ar gyfer y mathau yma o wefannau neu
fusnesau. A ydych chi’n credu bod y syniadau yna yn syniadau diddorol a
ddylai gael eu hystyried?
|
Jeremy Miles: On
that matter, we’ve received evidence that those public notices should be
available to hyperlocal publishers and other sources, and that they should
also use start–up funds where people could compete for that funding. We have
also received evidence about tax relief schemes and so on for these kinds of
websites or businesses. Do you think that those ideas are interesting ideas
that should be followed up?
|
[68]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Yn sicr, achos rydw i’n meddwl eu bod nhw yn gostwng yr entry
level. Maen nhw’n gwneud y cae chwarae yn fwy cyson, yn fwy teg ac yn y
blaen. Ac mae’r newyddiaduraeth ddigidol yn bwysig iawn, iawn, wrth gwrs, ond
rydw i’n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni hefyd drio cadw golwg ar ba mor anweledig
mae’r byd digidol yn gallu bod, nid yn unig i rannau o’r boblogaeth sydd ddim
yn byw ar eu ffonau, ond hefyd, pan rydym ni’n byw ar ein ffôn rydym ni’n
mynd i mewn i’r the daily me, onid ydym? Ac rydym ni’n byw yn y siambr
eco ac yn y blaen. Ond pan rydym ni’n mynd i’r stryd, a phan rydym ni’n mynd
i’r siop, rydym ni’n gweld beth sydd ar gael, ac rydym ni i gyd yn gweld yr
un peth â’n gilydd, i bob pwrpas. Felly, mae peidio â chuddio yr amrywiaeth
hefyd yn bwysig; o fuddsoddi i drio creu amrywiaeth, mae peidio â chuddio’r
amrywiaeth yn rhan bwysig o hynny, rydw i’n meddwl.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Certainly, because they do lower the entry level. They
make the playing field much more equal and fair and so on. And digital
journalism is very important, of course, but I also think we have to try to
keep an eye on how invisible the digital world can be, not just to parts of
the population who don’t live on their phones, but also when we live on our
phone, we go into the ‘daily me’, don’t we? And we live in those echo
chambers and so on. But when we go out onto the street, and when we go to
the shop, we see what is available, and we all see the same thing as each
other for all intents and purposes. So, not hiding that variety is also
important; in investing to try and create that variety, not hiding that away
is also important, I think.
|
[69]
Dr Jones: Rwy’n
meddwl bod y syniad o greu sffêr cyhoeddus cenedlaethol yng Nghymru ynghlwm
â’r syniad o greu rhyw fath o gymuned ddychmygol cenedlaethol. A beth mae’r
ymchwil academaidd yn ei ddangos ydy: yr un peth sy’n creu rhyw fath o
ymdeimlad o undod, bron, ymysg poblogaeth cenedl yw os ydyn nhw’n cymryd rhan
yn yr un defodau dyddiol, ac un o’r defodau yna ydy darllen yr un papur
newydd.
|
Dr Jones: The
concept of creating a public sphere in Wales is related to the establishment
of a national imagined community of some kind in Wales. And what the academic
research demonstrates is that it creates some sort of feeling of unity among
a population or nation if they are participating in the same daily rituals,
and one of those is reading the same newspaper.
|
[70]
Jeremy Miles: Rwy’n
derbyn hynny. Nid wyf wedi clywed oddi wrth yr un ohonoch chi eich bod chi’n
ffyddiog iawn bod model busnes a allai ddaparu’r math o gyfrwng roeddwn i’n
sôn amdano. A ydy hynny’n ffordd deg o ddisgrifio eich tystiolaeth chi?
|
Jeremy Miles: I’m
not hearing from either of you that you have a great deal of faith that there
is a business model that can provide the kind of media that I was talking
about. Is that a fair way of describing your evidence?
|
[71]
Dr Jones: Na, nid ydw
i’n credu hynny. Rydw i’n meddwl bod yna fodel busnes a fyddai'n gallu
darparu gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, yn sicr. Rydw i’n meddwl y byddai
angen oddeutu—dywedwch eich bod chi’n gosod ffigur o £1 miliwn y flwyddyn o
arian cyhoeddus, er enghraifft. Os ydy gwasanaeth fel Golwg360 yn gallu cael
ei gynnal ar—erbyn hyn mae’n cael tua £775,000; mae’r ffigur wedi gostwng ers
y dechrau. Rydw i’n meddwl y buasai angen rhyw £1 miliwn y flwyddyn cyn
lansio ac wedyn—
|
Dr Jones: I don’t
think so. I think there is a business model that could provide a national
English language news service, certainly. I think you would need to set a
figure of £1 million per annum in terms of public funding. If a service such
as Golwg360 can be sustained on some £775,000—and the figure has reduced
since its establishment—I think you would you need around £1 million per
annum before launching, and then—
|
[72]
Jeremy Miles: Ond arian
cyhoeddus rŷch chi’n sôn amdano fan hyn, nid arian masnachol.
|
Jeremy Miles: But
you’re talking about public funding rather than commercial funding.
|
[73]
Dr Jones: Rydw i’n
meddwl y buasai angen arian cyhoeddus, yn sicr.
|
Dr Jones: Yes, I
think you would certainly need public funds.
|
[74]
Jeremy Miles: Jest er
mwyn cael y syniad o scale, rŷch chi’n sôn am £1 miliwn o arian
cyhoeddus; a oes gennych chi syniad o faint o arian masnachol y byddai’n
bosibl ei ddenu i mewn i’r math yn o gynnig?
|
Jeremy Miles: But
just to have an idea of the scale, you’re talking about £1 million of public
funding; do you have an idea of how much commercial funding would be needed
to go into that kind of offer?
|
[75]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Nid ydw i ddim wedi edrych ar y ffigurau yma ers cyfnod o amser, ond
os ydw i’n cofio o’r cyfnod lle roeddem ni’n paratoi’r cynllun busnes ar
gyfer papur dyddiol Cymraeg sawl blwyddyn yn ôl, yna mi oedd yr arian
cyhoeddus drwy hysbysebion cyhoeddus yn mynd i fod yn gyfran fwy na’r hanner
o’r ffrwd incwm o hysbysebion. Byddai rhywun wedyn yn disgwyl—dywedwn ni £1
miliwn, ac wedyn trosiant o tua £1.5 miliwn.
|
Professor Gruffydd-Jones:
I haven’t looked at these figures for a fair amount of time, but thinking
back to the preparation of the business plan for the Welsh language daily
newspaper many years ago, then the public funds through public notices were
going to be more than 50 per cent of the income stream from advertisements.
So one would then expect £1 million, and a turnover of £1.5 million.
|
[76]
Jeremy Miles: Ocê,
diolch i chi.
|
Jeremy Miles: Okay,
thank you.
|
[77]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Mae gan Suzy Davies
gwestiynau.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Thank you. Suzy Davies has questions.
|
[78]
Suzy Davies: Diolch. I want to ask you a little bit about funding
myself, actually. But before I do that, I wanted to just test your statement,
Dr Morgan Jones, that
|
[79] ‘there
is an appetite that is not now being sated by English-language media in
Wales.’
|
[80] Now, if you go and speak to a local newspaper—as I’ve
done—that perhaps has been forced into making decisions that they don’t
particularly want to make in terms of their editorial content, the line that
perhaps they might have been given by further up the chain is, ‘We are
publishing what people want to read’. That is why you have ‘10 exciting
restaurants to eat in in Swansea’ and ‘The fourth worst public toilets in
Wales’ and all the rest of it—the lists and the click-journalism side
of things. What we’re not seeing, of course, is what our local authorities
are up to, just as one example. Has this gone too far for us to recover the
appetite for local materion cyfoes, if you like? Have we reached a
stage where people have just forgotten how to read about what’s happening in
their local authorities, as one example?
|
10:15
|
[81] Dr
Jones: I don’t think that’s the case at all. In fact, as you can see in
the paper I supplied, when I did a content analysis of Golwg360’s statistics,
the vast majority of the most popular stories during that time were stories
to do with this institution or political stories on the periphery—local
council stories. I think the reason people were turning towards Golwg360 for
that news was because that kind of information wasn’t being supplied by the
local or the regional press. I think people are interested, and perhaps
increasingly so. For instance, at the election just past we saw a big
increase in the number of young people who voted, which suggests that when
people do come across media—increasingly through Facebook, for instance—that
does get to grips with some of these political issues that are affecting
their lives, then there is a great interest, I think, in that media.
|
[82] I
think there is a danger that—. The problem with clickbait, in a way, is that
it’s specifically designed in order to just get people to click on the story
in the first place, and it doesn’t actually matter whether that content
actually engages them afterwards. I think Facebook have now changed the
algorithm so that the amount of time people actually spend reading the story
influences how high those search results appear on the website, and I think
that’s a very positive change, because I don’t know about other people in
this room, but I don’t know how many times I’ve clicked on a story on Twitter
or Facebook and just realised almost as the website loads that it’s just
complete rubbish and I’m going to have to click through about 50 different
pages with an advert on each one. So, I would say there is always going to be
more interest in popular content than there is in the sort of deep political
content that’s harder work to read, but I fear that the press, in searching
for a commercial online media, perhaps have gone too far in one direction,
and perhaps have left their public service ethos behind to a certain extent.
Even though more people may click on ‘10 funny images of cats’ than they
click on what’s going to—
|
[83] Suzy
Davies: That’s me. I do that.
|
[84] Dr
Jones: I think it’s also a question of the Assembly being successful in
packaging news about politics and councils being successful in packaging news
about politics. Because even if you look at Westminster, Westminster is all
over the front pages and everybody reads these stories, but a lot of it is
quite ‘soap opera-y’, in a way, and not a lot of it does get to grips with
the sort of nitty-gritty of what’s going on in the Brexit committee in the
House of Commons, for instance, where a lot of what we think might be
political interest is actually, ‘Oh, I’ve been following this soap opera for
a while, I wonder what’s going to happen to Theresa May now’ kind of thing,
rather than a real interest in the policy differences between people. So, I
think the political stuff gets through almost by osmosis, by packaging the news
in a way that is interesting to people, and that takes time and effort on the
part of the journalist. As I said, they’re very dependent on press releases.
If they get a press release from the Assembly saying ‘Ifan Morgan Jones and
Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones have been giving evidence today, this is what they
said’ and it seems quite dry, they’re not then going to have the time to go
through that press release and repackage it as a sexy piece of news in a way
that—
|
[85] Suzy
Davies: ‘Ifan Morgan Jones’s top 10 words—click here.’
|
[86] Dr
Jones: Maybe we need to do a little bit more of that. But I think that
perhaps the Assembly has a role in thinking of ways that they can make their
news accessible not just perhaps to the five per cent who are political
anoraks, but perhaps the wider community beyond that, and ask journalists
what kind of content they do want, as well, because perhaps if you did
package it as a sort of top 10 or a listicle or something like that or in a
way that is more ‘soap opera-y’—you know, what the Assembly Members are up to
and so forth—then more people would read it.
|
[87]
Suzy Davies: Watching pictures of cats—that’s all we do here.
|
[88] Dr
Jones: So, you have to be—[Inaudible.]
|
[89] Bethan
Jenkins: Let’s not go there this morning. We’re not jumping though fields
of wheat anyway, so—.
|
[90] Suzy
Davies: That’s way too dangerous
|
[91]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Ond,
efallai, os ydy rhywun yn cymryd y model opera sebon, a ydy pobol yn gwybod
pwy yw’r cymeriadau, ynte? Rydw i’n siŵr bod—. Mae yna rai ohonoch chi
sy’n fwy enwog na’ch gilydd, nid ydw i’n dweud, ond, er mwyn cymryd approach
opera sebon i wleidyddiaeth Gymreig, mae’n rhaid cael y cymeriadau allan yna,
ac nid yw’r cymeriadau yna ddim yno ar hyn o bryd, nac ydyn? Ac mae’n fy
rhyfeddu i, pan fyddaf i hyd yn oed yn clywed pobl rydw i’n siarad efo nhw
sydd ddim yn gwybod enw Carwyn, ynte—Carwyn Jones. Mae hynny’n fy rhyfeddu i,
ac mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl pam bod hynny’n wir, ynte.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: But, perhaps, if somebody takes the soap opera model as
an example, do people know who the characters are? I’m sure that—. Some of
you are more famous than others, but, to take that soap opera approach to
Welsh politics, you do have to get the characters out there, and the
characters aren’t there at present, are they? And it stuns me when I talk to
people who don’t know Carwyn Jones’s name. That’s a huge surprise to me, and
we do have to think about why that’s true.
|
[92]
Suzy Davies: Wel, nid oes sgetsh gwleidyddol yng Nghymru, nac
oes?
|
Suzy
Davies: Well, we don’t have a political
sketch in Wales, do we?
|
[93]
Bethan Jenkins: Spitting Image Cymraeg.
|
Bethan Jenkins: A
Welsh Spitting Image.
|
[94]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: A rôl
newyddiadurwyr ydy gwneud y cynnwyd yn fwy diddorol, ynte: troi hyn yn
rhywbeth hyd yn oed yn fwy diddorol na beth ydy o. Ond dyna yw rôl
newyddiadurwr—nid ailadrodd beth sydd wedi digwydd neu jest ei fyrhau o, ond
rhoi steer arno fo, a rhoi arwyddocâd pellach iddo fo, a’i wneud o’n
ddiddorol, ynte.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: And the role of journalists is to make the content more
interesting: to turn this into something that’s even more interesting than it
already is. But that’s the role of journalism—it’s not just repeating what’s
happened or summarising it, but giving it a steer, and also giving it further
significance and making it interesting.
|
[95]
Dr Jones: Os rhoddaf i esiampl, er
enghraifft, os buaswn i’n cael datganiad gan y Cynulliad yn dweud bod yna
Ddeddf rhoi organau newydd wedi dod i mewn, pe buaswn i jest yn sticio hynny
yn y papur, ni fyddai lot o ddiddordeb ynddo fe. Er ei fod o’n Ddeddf ofnadwy
o bwysig, yn effeithio bywydau lot o bobl, ni fyddai lot o ddiddordeb ynddo
fo. Pe buaswn i fel newyddiadurwr efo’r amser i ffeindio rhywun sydd yn fyw
heddiw oherwydd y Ddeddf yna, ac yn mynd atyn nhw ac yn ei cyfweld nhw, mi
fyddai pobl wedyn yn darllen stori am Joe Jones lawr yr heol sydd yn byw
heddiw oherwydd ei fod o wedi cael organ trwy'r Ddeddf rhoi organau, ac, mewn
ffordd, buasai’r stwff gwleidyddol, wedyn, yn dod trwodd yn y stori yna,
rhwng yr human interest story, mewn ffordd. Felly, mae’n ffordd o sut
rydych chi’n pecynnu straeon, ac nid oes gan newyddiadurwr, yn gynyddol, yng
Nghymru, yr amser i ailbecynnu datganiadau fel straeon diddordeb dynol
diddorol. Felly, efallai bod yna rôl i’r Cynulliad i wneud y math yna o beth
drostyn nhw, os ydy’r adnoddau yna, felly.
|
Dr Jones: As
an example, if we received a press release saying that the organ donation
Bill had come in, and we just put in the paper, there wouldn’t be a great
deal of interest in it, even though it’s a very important law and it would
affect a great many people. As journalists, if we had the time to find
someone who is alive today because of that law, and if we went to them and
interviewed them, then people would read a story about Joe Jones down the
road who’s alive today because he had received an organ through the organ
donation Act, and the political issues would come through in that story,
through the human interest story. So, it’s about how you package stories, and
journalists, increasingly, in Wales don’t have the time to repackage press
releases as human interest stories. So, perhaps there’s a role for the
Assembly to do that kind of thing for them, if the resources are there.
|
[96] Bethan
Jenkins: Suzy.
|
[97]
Suzy Davies: Well, actually, this is a question that the Commission
itself is considering at the moment. I just wanted to ask you something
about—. If start-ups were to be publicly funded, what should be the criteria
for funding those start-ups? I would ask you for how it would be distributed,
but, you know, you mentioned in what you were saying earlier on about the
success of The Canary and similar online things. That certainly helped
stir interest in politics, but, of course, it’s just repeating, effectively,
what’s happening in the Daily Express and the Daily Mirror, as
much as it’s reinforcing particular political standpoints rather than
encouraging open thinking, if you like. If public money were to go into
start-ups, should there be minimum criteria about journalistic standards and
political neutrality? And that’s whether they’re essentially voluntary organisations
or not.
|
[98]
Dr Jones: I think that, to a certain extent, those standards would
come as a direct result of actually receiving money. The second you’re a
professional journalist, you perhaps do have higher standards than, as I
said, if you’re just doing something voluntary. For instance, if you think
about Golwg 360, I was the editor of Golwg 360; we did receive £200,000 a
year from the Welsh Books Council, through the Welsh Government. I do have
political views, but I did keep all the content on Golwg 360 completely
politically neutral, because I was aware that—
|
[99]
Suzy Davies: Balanced as well.
|
[100]
Dr Jones: —I was serving the people of Wales, that I was serving
the people who were investing money in this, which were the Welsh Government,
who represent the people of Wales. So, I think the—. For instance, if you
contrast that with something like Nation.Cymru, which I’m running now,
because it’s a voluntary site I’ve basically said, ‘Okay, anyone who wants to
contribute to Nation.Cymru, you can do so.’ But all I’ve received are
contributions by members of the Labour Party who are on the Welsher wing of
the Labour Party perhaps, and Plaid Cymru members, because those are the
kinds of people who want to be part of the national conversation, have more
interesting—
|
[101]
Suzy Davies: Expect some from the others shortly. [Laughter.]
|
[102] Dr Jones: Yes,
hopefully. I would be very happy to receive contributions from others as
well, but it just so happens that, because of the kind of site it is, that’s
all I’ve been getting—these kinds of people shovelling content towards me.
Whereas if it was—. And, because of the voluntary nature of it, I
haven’t had the time. It would take more effort for me to spend many hours of
commissioning articles from a broader range of people where, when I was the
editor of Golwg 360 and working full time on the site, I was able, quite
easily, to spend time making sure that we had a broader picture, and I
remember being very happy walking around the Eisteddfod maes once when
one person came up to me and gave me a row that we were being too kind to the
Tories on Golwg 360—
|
[103] Suzy Davies: You
can never be too kind to the Tories. [Laughter.]
|
[104] Dr Jones: And
then another person came up to me and gave me a row for being too kind
towards Plaid Cymru. So, I thought, ‘Yes, I’ve got the balance right here, on
the site, because no one’s happy’.
|
[105] Suzy Davies: A
balance, yes, because—. Can I just ask you a quick one there? Presumably,
you’ve got some sort of editorial controls if something is offered to you
that crosses the offensiveness line—you can either refuse to take it or take
pieces out of it, yes?
|
[106] Dr Jones: Yes.
Yes, simply, I do that, you know—
|
[107] Suzy Davies: I
don’t mean a political viewpoint—
|
[108] Bethan Jenkins: You’re
anticipating an article about somebody—[Inaudible.]
|
[109] Suzy Davies: What
words have I got to leave out? [Laughter.] But you can see where I’m
coming from—you know, the tone, particularly on social media in this last
election, was beyond acceptable in some cases, so I guess you do have some
editorial control about choosing what goes on your site. I mean, I’m not
saying this happened on yours at all, but—you know where I’m coming from. At
what point would a state-funded, effectively, or state-supported, published
website or, actually, print media reach a situation where the state could
then say, ‘I’m sorry, we’re pulling the money on this—you’ve gone too far’?
|
[110] Dr Jones: I
think, certainly, as an editor, you have to look out, obviously, for things
like libel and contempt of court to begin with, which don’t apply so much on
Twitter, where everyone just says what they want. You also—
|
[111] Suzy Davies: You
mentioned that everybody knows the rules on that either. So, I’m guessing
insurance is an issue for you.
|
[112] Dr Jones: I
think, as an editor, you would just to take—you’d just have to know your
stuff, really, and make sure that no content like that—. Obviously, if any
kind of content does cross the line and becomes abusive, you either just have
to spike the article, or you have to get back in contact with the person and
say, ‘You know, this isn’t acceptable at all. I’d have to cut this bit out.
Are you happy for me to cut it out? If not, you know, the article gets
spiked.’
|
[113] Suzy Davies: I
appreciate that’s putting you on the spot, but as a general idea. Thank you.
Diolch, Cadeirydd.
|
[114] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.
|
[115] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: A gaf i ychwanegu
un neu ddau o bethau rydw i’n eu meddwl ynglŷn â hyn?
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: May I add one or two things to that?
|
[116] Bethan Jenkins: O, ie—sori, nid oes lot o
amser.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Oh,
yes—sorry, there isn’t much time.
|
[117] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Popeth yn iawn.
Rydw i’n deall; byddaf yn fast iawn. Rydw i’n meddwl, o ran gosod
gofynion efo arian cyhoeddus, os mai’r bwriad ydy cryfhau amrywiaeth yr wasg,
yna mae’n rhaid cael—nid yw’n gorfod bod erthygl wrth erthygl, bod popeth yn
gorfod bod yn gytbwys, ond ei fod o, yn fras, yn gytbwys. Rydw i’n meddwl bod
hynny’n draddodiad sydd wedi cael ei etifeddu o’r system ddarlledu. Rydw i’n
meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig hefyd i feddwl ynglŷn â sut i ddod â phobl
ifanc i mewn i’r proffesiwn newyddiadurol, beth bynnag ydy ffurf y proffesiwn
newyddiadurol yna yn y dyfodol. Rydw i’n meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig bod yna
elfennau sy’n cyfateb i’r uchelgais o greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg o fewn
y degawdau nesaf yma. Felly, hyd yn oed os ydy rhywun yn sôn ynglŷn â
bod yna ddiffygion yn y wasg Saesneg yng Nghymru, nid oes dim byd o’i le
chwaith efo cryfhau’r elfennau yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Rydym ni’n gwybod mewn
gwledydd eraill, fel Catalonia, Gwlad y Basg, ac yn y blaen, bod nifer
darllenwyr ifanc yn cynyddu yn fanna, felly, pe byddai mwy o gynnwys ar gael
byddai’n helpu fanna. Ac rydw i’n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig cael dosbarthiad
daearyddol pwysig, yntê, i hyn. Rydw i’n dweud hyn, wrth gwrs, fel rhywun
sydd yn byw yn y gorllewin, ond hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn o sut brofiad byddai
tyfu i fyny yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru y dyddiau yma, ac yn meddwl, ‘Reit,
lle mae’r rôl i newyddiaduraeth sydd yn edrych ar bob rhan o Gymru mewn model
fel hyn?’ Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod cael gwasgariad daearyddol hefyd yn bwysig
iawn.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: That’s fine. I understand; I’ll be very fast. I think, in
terms of setting requirements with public funding, if the intention is to
strengthen the diversity of the press, then you have to have—it doesn’t have
to be an article-by-article method of ensuring impartiality and balance, but
it generally needs to be balanced. I think that that’s a tradition that’s
been inherited from the broadcasting system. I think it’s also important to
think about how to bring young people into the profession of journalism,
whatever the form of that journalistic profession is in future. I think that
it’s important that there are elements that correspond to the ambition of
creating a million Welsh speakers within the next few decades. So, even if
someone’s talking about the deficiency in the English-language press, there’s
nothing wrong either with strengthening the elements in the Welsh language.
We know that in other countries, such as Catalonia and the Basque Country,
the number of young people and young readers is increasing there, so more
content being available would be a help there. And I also think it’s
important to have an important geographical distribution. I say this, of
course, as someone who lives in the west, but also very aware of the
experience of growing up in the north-east of Wales these days, and thinking,
‘Well, what’s the role for journalism that looks at all parts of Wales in a
model like this?’ So, I think that having that geographical spread is also
very important.
|
[118] Bethan Jenkins: Jest cwestiynau gan Neil
Hamilton nawr.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Some
questions now from Neil Hamilton.
|
[119] Neil Hamilton: Yes.
Well, we live in a more visual age now than the one in which I was growing
up, and the attention span of the public has dramatically declined, I think,
in my lifetime. It’s very interesting to look back at the content of
newspapers going back many years. I spent quite a long time in the vaults of
the national library reading nineteenth century local newspapers and you’d be
amazed at the depth of argument and coverage of serious issues—something like
The Montgomeryshire Express back in the 1860s—compared with today,
where even the Western Mail or Wales Online are only interested in
trivialities and there’s no serious content at all. I’ve done my best to
liven things up since I’ve been here, but—
|
[120] Dai Lloyd: To
bring a serious note—[Laughter.]
|
10:30
|
[121] Neil Hamilton:
Everybody complains that the Senedd isn’t reported, and when I do my best to
ensure that it is reported then I get ticked off by the Llywydd for using too
colourful a phrase or an image because it’s politically incorrect, or thought
to be politically incorrect, and, actually, that is the only thing that our
news media in Wales is interested in reporting on. It’s pathetic, actually,
when you consider we’ve just been through an election to discuss the most
serious issues of our age. All the Mickey Mouse kind of reporting that we get
is just as true for national newspapers as it is for local newspapers, as you
rightly said. The reportage of Westminster is all tittle-tattle of one kind
or another. Parliamentary debates are not reported at all except sometimes
for the main speakers, and the only thing that anybody knows about the House
of Commons is Prime Minister’s question time, which is a complete pantomime
and worthless as a means of exchanging ideas. I think First Minister’s
questions is a bit better than that here, actually, in my experience, but
that doesn’t get reported either. There’s nothing we can do about that, of
course, but what strikes me is how much more lively, in a way, Welsh language
publications are in Wales than the English language ones. I think that
there’s a significant difference between the two. Small as they are,
nevertheless I think that the standards are much higher than the commercial
ones, if I can put it that way, like the Trinity Mirror group and so on.
|
[122] What I’ve seen in my
lifetime in Wales is a dramatic reduction in the diversity of and
independence of news outlets, and I’m very concerned that we should try to do
something to revive more of the plurality that existed 40 years ago, or 50
years ago. I’ve been a journalist myself and I do understand the problems
today, with the collapse of advertising revenues. I worked as a columnist on
the Sunday Express for many years. Now, I guess, across the two
titles—the Daily Express and the Sunday Express—I doubt that
there are 70 or 80 full-time professional journalists between two national
newspapers, and that is replicated to a much more severe extent with our
local news media, obviously. So, we’re living in an age of transition. Most
of the print titles will have disappeared, I think, within a very short time,
and we’re moving to more digital content. So, websites are going to become
much more important. Still, there’s going to be a significant difficulty in
finding finance for these outlets to produce the level of reporting, and
particularly investigative reporting, that a healthy political society
requires. There are obvious dangers in state finance—
|
[123] Bethan Jenkins:
Can I be Presiding Officer and ask if you’re going to come to a question? [Laughter.]
|
[124] Neil Hamilton:
Yes. I will do.
|
[125] Bethan Jenkins:
As much as I’m loving listening to you. [Laughter.]
|
[126] Neil Hamilton:
Exactly.
|
[127] Bethan Jenkins:
Thank you.
|
[128] Neil Hamilton:
You’ve anticipated my next move.
|
[129] Bethan Jenkins:
Great. I’m liking that.
|
[130] Neil Hamilton:
I was obviously receiving the signals telepathically.
|
[131] Bethan Jenkins:
Yes. [Laughter.]
|
[132] Neil Hamilton:
But it has worked, I think, with Welsh language publishing. So, I was
wondering whether you think that additional state support should be provided
for traditional news journalism, particularly English language journalism,
which you referred to, and, if so, what this might look like. Do you think
that’s a realistic possibility?
|
[133] Dr Jones: My
PhD is in the nineteenth century Welsh press, so I concur about the quality
of the debate that was in the press at that time. But the thing to remember,
of course, was that, as soon as the News of the World and London
papers came in, the Welsh press was just annihilated, to all intents and
purposes. So, you could argue that the only reason people were reading the Monmouthshire
Merlin was because there was nothing better and more interesting around
to read at the time. But I would just make the case that public funding has
worked very well through the Welsh language. There were no issues when I was
at Golwg360 with any kind of bias within the website, and I don’t think there
are any more. I don’t think there was any sort of feeling of undue pressure
either by the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly or any other political
organisation to write in any way, favourably or unfavourably. The only
concern I do have with public funding is that the one effect it has had on
Welsh language press, in my opinion, is that the press doesn’t make enough
effort to be popular—in my opinion. I think, perhaps, it sometimes has turned
into a press by middle-class Welsh speakers for middle-class Welsh speakers
to a certain extent because, as a middle-class Welsh-speaking person writing
novels and writing journalism, those are my peers, really, and I’m trying to
please my peers. And because there’s no financial incentive to appeal to a
wider audience, perhaps that is one negative effect of receiving public
money. But I think if the English language press received a public subsidy
they would obviously be, to a certain extent, dependent on that public
subsidy, and also on a certain amount of income generated through other
revenues such as advertisers. So, I think on the seesaw between being a more
popular press and perhaps a more substantial press, perhaps they get the
balance slightly better than the Welsh language press has over the years.
|
[134] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Byddwn i’n dweud yn
gyflym iawn, y peth olaf byddwn ni’n disgwyl i chi fod yn gweithio tuag ato
fo ydy ffordd o roi arian cyhoeddus i gynnal y math o wasg sydd gennym ni ar
hyn o bryd, hynny ydy model o jest parhad i roi, yn lle bod—. Fe ddywedwn ni,
yn glir iawn—yn lle bod Trinity Mirror yn parhau â’i fodel busnes drwy gael
hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus, eu bod nhw’n symud draw i fod yn rhyw fath o
grant sector cyhoeddus, a byddwn i’n meddwl eich bod chi—os dyna ydy’r
uchelgais, rydw i wir yn meddwl eich bod chi’n colli golwg ar beth ydy’r
cyfle sy’n gallu codi os ydych chi’n meddwl o ddifri ynglŷn â gwneud adjustment
i’r market failure sydd yn amlwg yn bodoli yn y wasg yn
gyffredinol yng Nghymru, o ran beth mae pobl yn darllen a beth mae pobl yn
gweld. Os ydych chi eisiau cael gwasg sydd yn fwy egnïol ac yn fwy amrywiol
yn y ddwy iaith, yna mae’n rhaid gwneud adjustments i fethiant y
farchnad, a’r ffordd mae’r adjustment yna yn cael ei wneud ydy efallai
cyfuniad o beth bynnag ydy’r pwerau sydd ar gael o ran amrywio lle mae treth
yn dod i mewn a lle mae buddsoddiad yn mynd allan. Ac os nad oes gennych
chi'r grym i amrywio'r mater efo’r trethi, yna dim ond drwy amrywio
buddsoddiad y mae modd newid y farchnad yna.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: I would just say very briefly that the last thing I would
expect you to be working towards is a means of providing public funds to
sustain the kind of press that we currently have, that is a model of
continuity. So, let’s make this clear, rather than Trinity Mirror continuing
with its business model by attracting public sector advertising, that it
moves over to be some sort of public sector grant, and I would think that if
that’s the ambition, then I really think that you are losing sight of the
opportunities that could arise if you think in earnest about making an
adjustment to the market failure, which clearly exists in the press and media
generally in Wales, in terms of what people read and what people see. If you
want a press that is more diverse and more energetic in both languages, then
you need to make adjustments to that market failure, and the way that
adjustment is made is perhaps a combination of whatever powers are available
in terms of varying where the tax is taken and where the investment is made.
And if you don’t have the powers to vary taxation, then it’s only through
varying investment can you change that marketplace.
|
[135] Felly, byddwn i’n meddwl bod yna gyfle i wneud rhywbeth cyffrous iawn
yn fan hyn. Mae gennym ni fodel lle rydym ni’n gwybod, drwy’r wasg Gymraeg a
drwy’r system darlledu gyhoeddus, fod buddsoddiad cyhoeddus yn amrywiaeth y
wasg ac yn amrywiaeth newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio ac yn dderbyniol. Felly, un
cam pellach wedyn ydy penderfynu estyn y model yna y tu allan i ddarlledu yn
Saesneg i’w roi o tuag at gynhyrchu newyddion gwahanol yn Saesneg. Ond ni
fyddwn i’n dweud chwaith nad ydy’r newyddiaduraeth Gymraeg yn gwbl iach
chwaith, ac mae wir yn bwysig trio sicrhau bod y wasg yn cyrraedd mwy o
siaradwyr a mwy o bobl sydd yn y broses o ddysgu’r iaith, beth bynnag ydy eu
hoed.
|
So, I think there
is an opportunity to do something very exciting here. We do have a model
where we know through, the Welsh media and the public service broadcasting
system, that public investment in the plurality of the press and the plurality
of journalism does work and is acceptable. So, it’s one step further then, of
course, to decide to extend that model beyond English language broadcasting,
and to make provision for the production of news in a different way in
English. But I wouldn’t say either that the Welsh language journalism is
entirely healthy either, and it’s very important that we do try to ensure
that the press and media does reach more Welsh speakers and more Welsh
learners, whatever their age.
|
[136] Neil Hamilton: And
you referred to the Basque Country. Do you know any other examples
internationally that we might explore to take us further along this road?
|
[137] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Wel, un achos
diddorol iawn, efallai, hefyd ydy’r Ffindir, lle mae Swedeg hefyd yn iaith
swyddogol yna, ac mae patrymau newyddiadurol cryf iawn yn y fan yna. Mae’r
model o danysgrifio i bapur newydd yn gryf iawn yn yr ardal yna, ac mae hynny
wedyn, wrth gwrs, yn caniatáu i’r papurau symud o’r fersiwn print i’r fersiwn
digidol gymaint yn rhwyddach oherwydd bod y darllenwyr yn barod wedi comitio
neu ymrwymo i’r cynnwys—dim ots ym mha ffurf y mae’n eu cyrraedd nhw, maent
wedi comitio i’r cynnwys. Felly, efallai ei bod hi’n wrth i chi ystyried beth
sy’n digwydd yn fanna, ac fe fedra i ddarparu rhywfaint o wybodaeth cefndir i
chi ynglŷn â’r ddau achos penodol yna, os ydych chi’n dymuno.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Well, one interesting case, perhaps, as well is Finland,
where Swedish is also an official language, and there are very strong
journalistic trends and patterns there. The subscription model for newspapers
is very strong there, and that then allows those papers to move from the
print version to the digital version far more easily because the readership
is already committed to the content—whatever form it takes, they are
committed to it. So, perhaps you should consider what is happening there, and
I could provide some background information to you on those two specific
cases, if you wish.
|
[138] Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Byddai unrhyw
wybodaeth ychwanegol felly yn help. Rydym ni wedi mynd dros amser yn barod,
felly os yw’n iawn gyda chi, fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch chi am rai o’r
cwestiynau ychwanegol, er enghraifft y gwaith mae’r BBC yn ei wneud ar
newyddiaduraeth leol, a rhai cwestiynau penodol am y cyngor llyfrau. Felly, a
yw’n iawn i ni ysgrifennu atoch chi?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Great.
Any additional information would be of great help. We have gone over time
already, so if it’s okay with you, we’ll write to you with additional
questions, for example the work that the BBC is doing with local journalism,
and some specific questions about the books council. So, is it okay for us to
write to you?
|
[139] Dr Jones: Ydy.
|
Dr Jones: Yes.
|
[140] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Wrth gwrs.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Of course.
|
[141] Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch yn fawr
iawn i chi am ddod mewn; sesiwn ddiddorol iawn. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd rhywun
rhywle yn gwneud stori am yr hyn rydych wedi ei ddweud, os yn secsi neu
beidio. Ewch i reportio fe eich hunain. [Chwerthin.] Diolch yn fawr
iawn am ddod mewn.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Great.
Thank you very much to you for coming in for this very interesting session. I
hope that somebody somewhere will write a story on what you’ve said, whether
it’s sexy or not. Do go out and report it yourselves. [Laughter.]
Thank you very much to you for coming in.
|
[142] Dr Jones: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.
|
Dr Jones: Thank you
very much.
|
[143] Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Diolch.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Thank you.
|
10:40
|
|
Papurau
i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
|
[144] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen at
eitem 3, a’r papurau i’w nodi. Mae yna gryn dipyn o bapurau i’w nodi. Mae yna
un ar gyllid ar gyfer addysg cerddoriaeth a mynediad at yr addysg honno:
crynodeb o’r ymweliad gwych a gawsom i Ysgol Lewis Pengam, ynglŷn â’u
gwaith nhw; papur ar ddyfodol S4C a thystiolaeth ychwanegol gan Huw Jones,
cadeirydd Awdurdod S4C, ac Ian Jones, y prif weithredwr; wedyn, papur arall
ar newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru, a thystiolaeth ychwanegol ddwys
iawn, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud, gan Enders Analysis; papur arall ychwanegol
gan Dr Andy Williams ac Emma Meese; ac wedyn papur gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau
ynglŷn â’r deisebau sydd yn ymwneud â’n pwyllgor ni o ran thema. A ydy
pawb yn hapus i nodi hynny?
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Bethan Jenkins: We
move on to item 3 and the papers to note. There are several papers to note.
There is one on funding for and access to music education: a summary of the
excellent visit that we had to Lewis School Pengam, with regard to their
work; a paper on the future of S4C and additional evidence from Huw Jones,
chairman of the S4C Authority, and Ian Jones, chief executive of S4C; then
another paper on news journalism in Wales, and additional written evidence—a
great deal of evidence—from Enders Analysis; and also a paper from Dr Andy
Williams and Emma Meese; and then a paper from the Petitions Committee with
regard to the petitions that are relevant to our committee. Is everyone
content to note those?
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[145] Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.
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Dai Lloyd: Content.
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[146] Bethan Jenkins: Unrhyw sylwadau? Mae gen i
nodyn i ofyn a oes unrhyw sylwadau penodol gennych chi ar y deisebau? Na. Dim
ar hyn o bryd. Grêt.
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Bethan Jenkins: Any
comments? I have a note to ask whether there any specific comments on the
petitions? No. Not at the moment. Great.
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10:41
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Cynnig
o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the
Meeting
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod y
pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â
Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
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that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
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Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[147] Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 4: cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus gyda
hynny?
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Bethan Jenkins:
Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public
from the meeting. Is everyone content?
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[148] Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.
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Dai Lloyd: Content.
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[149] Bethan Jenkins: Bodlon. Diolch yn fawr, Dai.
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Bethan Jenkins:
Content. Thank you very much, Dai.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:41.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:41.
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