The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:03
The meeting began at 09:03
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a
Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
|
[1]
Mike Hedges: Introduction, apologies, substitutions and
declarations of interest. We have had no apologies. Neil, you
wanted to say something.
|
[2]
Neil McEvoy: Yes, I did want to bring something up. We
discussed the very important matter last time of parental
alienation, which is a form of psychological abuse. It ruins
children’s lives and it ruins parents’ lives. I read
last week about the suicide of a father kept out of his
child’s or children’s lives. I don’t know the
details of the actual case, but that’s the level we’re
talking about here; it’s a really, really serious issue.
There was a comment made on Twitter by both parents on a matter in
response to what Janet Finch-Saunders said, and what really
concerned me was that the Minister concerned—I think
it’s that camera I need to show this to today, or, if not,
it’s that one—tweeted in response, from his account, a
comment that is really unbecoming of an Assembly Member, unbecoming
of a Minister, where he’s actually put an emoji that means
‘crying with laughter’ about this most serious, serious
matter. And what I’d like to do is for the committee to write
to the Minister—although, looking at this, he may have done
it in his capacity as an AM—and just tell him that this kind
of comment isn’t really acceptable. It’s not at all on,
in my opinion.
|
[3]
Mike Hedges: I’ve let you make those comments, Neil, because
I think you have every right to make them. We’ll be coming
back to that issue, and I’ll give you the opportunity to move
something at that time.
|
[4]
Neil McEvoy: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
|
[5]
Mike Hedges: Can I just remind everybody, you can speak in English
or Welsh? Headsets are available for translation to English. And
you’ve no need to turn your mobile phones, or other
electronic devices, off, but please, please ensure that they are in
silent mode.
|
09:05
|
Deisebau Newydd
New Petitions
|
[6]
Mike Hedges: On to the new petitions. The first one is
‘Reinstate Corwen’s Mobile Dental Service’,
submitted by Ysgol Caer Drewyn, having collected 157
signatures—152 on paper, and five online. The Cabinet
Secretary has stated that the health board is planning to
reintroduce the mobile unit from 2017-18, and that, in the long
term, there are plans to create two additional dental surgeries.
So, it appears that the petition seems to have achieved what it was
set out to achieve. So, shall we await the views of the
petitioners, just to make sure they are fully satisfied, before we
close it? Yes.
|
[7]
Neil McEvoy: Yes.
|
[8]
Mike Hedges: ‘Strengthening the Legislative and Regulatory
Framework Surrounding Waste Wood Processing Facilities’. The
Cabinet Secretary has stated that revoking the permit for South
Wales Wood Recycling is a matter for Natural Resources Wales, as
the issue is of local rather than national significance. NRW is
currently considering whether further action is required. The
Government intends to introduce further powers for NRW, and will
consult on proposals for strengthening operator requirements. The
petitioner has responded to the points made by the Cabinet
Secretary, and raised several related issues, including the
potential for conflict between NRW’s role to protect the
environment, and targets for local authorities to increase
recycling rates. Shall we pass those comments on to the Cabinet
Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and see what response
we get back? Yes.
|
[9]
‘Call on Welsh Government to make the A48 safe for all road
users and pedestrians at Laleston, Broadlands and Merthyr
Mawr’. We can only deal with trunk roads, because local roads
are the responsibility of local authorities. So, we probably
shouldn’t have received it, but it was because of a belief
that the A48 is a trunk road, which is something I would have
thought as well. The Cabinet Secretary has stated that Bridgend
County Borough Council submitted an application to the road safety
capital grant for improvements to this stretch of road, which was
unsuccessful, but is the first reserve. We could await the views of
the petitioners and engage in correspondence with Bridgend council.
As we’ve accepted it, I think that stopping it at this stage
would be wrong. Yes.
|
[10]
The next one, which is our first
5,000-signature petition, is ‘Live Music Protection in
Wales’. I think it shows that the 5,000 was a reasonable
number, because, one, it is gettable, and, secondly, it shows that
people have a very serious interest in a subject when they can get
5,000. I would suggest that we write to the Business Committee,
asking for a debate on this.
|
[11]
Neil McEvoy: The Minister said they’re going to bring
forward legislation. Have they given a timetable for that? I wonder
whether it’s worth giving the Minister time to
maybe—
|
[12]
Mike Hedges: Well, we won’t have a debate very quickly;
we’re struggling to get one in by the end of term, as it
were.
|
[13]
Neil McEvoy: Right, okay.
|
[14]
Mike Hedges: So, if we asked for a debate now, the Business
Committee will decide. So, we’re going to be talking a
minimum of four weeks into—. But it does actually put the
position in that we’ve asked for the debate; they’ve
got the 5,000 signatures, and I think we’ve got a moral duty
to fulfil our own rules and ask for that debate.
|
[15]
Gareth Bennett: It’s slightly complicated, Chair,
because there’s supposed to be a debate on this subject
tomorrow, that—
|
[16]
Neil McEvoy: Are they going to withdraw that?
|
[17]
Gareth Bennett: I think, kind of, yes. Simon Thomas just
said in Business Committee that they will withdraw it based on what
decision the Petitions Committee gets to about the debate, because
they don’t want to do two.
|
[18]
Mike Hedges: I think that if we decide not to ask for a debate,
they’ll have it tomorrow. If we decide to have to have a
debate, they will not, and—
|
[19]
Neil McEvoy: Just—. Sorry, Chair. My logic was a sort of
double lock, really, to get it before the Assembly as quickly as
possible, to give the committee time as well to maybe follow up at
a later date. But since the Minister’s made the announcement,
I think it would make sense for our group to withdraw the motion
and for this committee to ask for it to be discussed before the end
of term, if that’s all right. I agree with the
Chair.
|
[20]
Mike Hedges: Is everybody else happy with that? I think we ought
to see the petitioners here first, before it goes before the
Assembly, so it’s an opportunity for us to get their views so
that we can reflect them in that debate. Is that okay?
|
[21]
Mr Francis: If the petitioners are free, it’s not a great
deal of notice, but there’s a committee slot free at the next
meeting on 13 June, if you wanted to take evidence then.
|
[22]
Mike Hedges: If we can get it by 13 June, then we could be looking
to have a full debate, which I think we would all like. Can I say
something from the Chair? I’m very pleased that somebody has
reached 5,000, and I hope the Business Committee will look
favourably on our request.
|
[23]
Gareth Bennett:
I think it’s good that it’s
on this, which seems to be quite a substantial issue, not on some
sort of marginal issue. It’s a good one to have as the first
one, I think.
|
[24]
Mike Hedges: I don’t think you’ll get 5,000 on some of
those marginal—. I know it’s digressing, but some of
the ones that you might describe as that came in with eight and 10
and 13, and we had a lot of those very small numbers. To get 5,000,
you’ve got to put a bit of effort in, and it’s really
got to be an issue that touches people, so I think that we’ll
find that the 5,000 will be the big issues. Okay. Are we happy with
that, then?
|
09:12
|
Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions
|
[25]
Mike Hedges: Updates on previous petitions. ‘Child and
Adolescent Eating Disorder Service’.
|
[26]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
This is a big issue for us in Wales. I
know that Bethan Jenkins has worked extremely hard, and I’ve
gone along to some of her cross-party groups, because I don’t
think that the issue is being dealt with in terms of the Government
here. We still haven’t got a centre for eating disorders, and
as some of this evidence states, young children are presenting now.
It used to be more around the age of puberty, but now they’re
presenting a lot younger than that with eating disorders, with the
pressure of modern and social society, and I do think we
ought—. Again, we could be driving this through. I know, on
this one, there’s not as many as I’ve seen previously,
but then, all of us AMs, I’m sure that we’ve all
experienced—. We know how difficult it is. I had a
constituent who had to access treatment over in Cambridgeshire, and
with a devolved nation, it just seems odd. It’s one of the
biggest threats to our boys and girls—it’s not just a
girl-related illness—and I think we do need to be doing
something. We talk about early intervention, we talk about
education, but it’s not happening, because of the amount of
young girls now, in particular, but boys as well, who are so body
conscious, and I think we do need to start recognising it.
I’d like this petition to be another flag waving at us to say
we ought to be putting more pressure on the Government.
|
[27]
Mike Hedges: I don’t disagree with anything you’ve
said, Janet, but I think we’ve got a few stages to go first,
and I think the first one is that we send the comments we’ve
had in to the Cabinet Secretary for health, and we ask how that
£500,000 that was made available has been spent, and then
when we start getting those replies, we may well want to have our
own investigation into it. If we do that, then we can decide how to
take it from there.
|
[28]
Neil McEvoy: I’d just like to say that the submission from
the petitioner was really powerful as well.
|
[29]
Janet
Finch-Saunders: Yes,
definitely.
|
09:15
|
[30]
Mike Hedges: So, are we okay with that method—that way
forward? ‘Improving specialised neuromuscular services
in Wales’. Last considered on 7 March. Wrote to the Cabinet
Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary has responded to the specific
questions raised by the petitioners, confirmed that the chief
executive group of NHS Wales is aware of concerns and has asked for
a solution to be sought. The Cabinet Secretary has also confirmed
that the national review of specialised neurosciences will not
encompass neuromuscular services. The responses received from
health boards outline a range of approaches, most of which are
based on the Welsh Government’s delivery plan. Wait for the
petitioners to come back, following the information they’ve
got? Yes.
|
[31]
‘NHS Wales Pay’. Considered on 17 January. Wrote to the
petitioner on 1 February. No response has been received. So, I
assume we close it. Yes.
|
[32]
‘To Make Mental Health Services More
Accessible’—
|
[33]
Neil McEvoy: I think this is another—it’s more
than a flag-waving exercise. Massive concerns with what the
petitioner is saying, and borne out by casework as well.
|
[34]
Mike Hedges: But if we take it through the processes,
we’ll write to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being
and Sport to highlight the concerns and proposed improvements made
by the petitioner and Hafal, and seek further information about
plans to improve the responsiveness of services. If we’re not
happy with that, then we’ll take it through the full process
again.
|
[35]
Neil McEvoy: Yes.
|
[36]
Mike Hedges: The next one is ‘Abuse of casual
contracts in Further Education’. Last considered on 1
November. Wrote to the petitioners in November, and sent several
further e-mails. We’ve had no response since. So, close
it.
|
[37]
Neil McEvoy: Very, very disappointing to close, because
it’s a real issue, isn’t it?
|
[38]
Mike Hedges: Well, speaking as somebody who worked in
further education, yes, it is. But we can only engage with
petitioners who engage with us.
|
[39]
Neil McEvoy: Yes.
|
[40]
Mike Hedges: ‘Asbestos in Schools’. We’ve
had several recent comments from the petitioner.
|
[41]
Janet Finch-Saunders: This is another big issue.
|
[42]
Mike Hedges: Again, going through the same process: send on
their concerns to the Cabinet Secretary, then we come back to it. I
mean, just putting it into context, in one day, we can see the
petitioners and the Minister to discuss it, or we can see two
petitioners one week and two Ministers the next week. So, now
we’ve reduced all our backlog, there’s no reason why we
cannot be doing at least one—a part or
whole—investigation each meeting, which I’m sure people
will much prefer to just churning through a process, which
we’re doing at the moment.
|
[43]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes.
|
[44]
Mike Hedges: ‘Ensure schools exercise their statutory
powers under regulation 7 of The Education (Pupil Registration)
(Wales) Regulations 2010 without interference or bias’.
We’ve dealt with it on 23 February. We’ve again written
to the petitioners and we’ve had no response.
|
[45]
Janet Finch-Saunders: On this one, I thought things were
going ahead.
|
[46]
Mike Hedges: We had another petition on this, didn’t
we?
|
[47]
Mr Francis: Yes, there are two quite similar petitions that
were dealt with by the previous committee that were passed on to
this Assembly. We have been touch and had comments at a previous
meeting from the other petitioner. This petition, as I say, is
substantially similar, but we haven’t had comments recently
from this petitioner.
|
[48]
Mike Hedges: Could we treat the two petitions—? Are
they similar enough to deal with as one?
|
[49]
Mr Francis: Yes, the previous committee had grouped them
together.
|
[50]
Janet Finch-Saunders: But they’re different in what
they’re asking, if my memory serves me correctly. On this
one, they’re asking for a public inquiry. Surely, a local
authority and the community council, and probably the town council
if they’ve got one—a community council or
whatever—. There seems to be a process that this—. In
the letter we’ve had back from the Minister or the Cabinet
Secretary—. I don’t know, I think that’s—.
I don’t see what it is—. The Welsh Ministers can
|
[51]
‘consider calling in an application…however no
requests to do so have been received by them.’
|
[52]
Mike Hedges: Are you on the coal exchange?
|
[53]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes.
|
[54]
Mike Hedges: Oh, no, we’re still on—.
You’re ahead of us, Janet.
|
[55]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I’m ahead of you. Sorry.
|
[56]
Mike Hedges: We’re dealing with the one on the
Education (Pupil Registration) (Wales) Regulations 2010.
|
[57]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Oh, I missed that one. Sorry. I do
apologise.
|
[58]
Mike Hedges: Shall we group it with the other one? Okay.
|
[59]
Now onto the coal exchange, Janet. Please go ahead.
|
[60]
Janet Finch-Saunders: On this one, I think Ken
Skates’s response is quite—. It does explain what he
can and can’t do. We’ve only had the one in on this,
have we?
|
[61]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
|
[62]
Mr Francis: Yes, there’s one petition about the coal
exchange.
|
[63]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Because I know, again, Bethan, I
think, has been—. She’s been working on this,
hasn’t she?
|
[64]
Neil McEvoy: I don’t know.
|
[65]
Janet Finch-Saunders: I know some Members have mentioned
this in the Chamber before now, and it’s obviously a very,
very valuable building and everything. I support us keeping our
heritage and historic culture. But this does appear to me
that—. Obviously, it’s going to perhaps go to a hotel
and ancillary uses, and it goes on about—.
|
[66]
Neil McEvoy: If you speak to local people—as I have
done quite extensively—the developers have saved the
building. Local people are actually employed there. The work was
done by lots of boys from Butetown. They’ve given the
basement to be the heritage centre. The profits from the cafe there
are going to finance the heritage centre as well. There were some
issues with the notice, which I think was the concern of the
petitioners. But I think, in terms of the actual development,
they’ve done really well there.
|
[67]
Mike Hedges: Speaking with two listed buildings in my
constituency that are very good at growing plants in, some of which
are coming through the roof, I think getting a good end use for a
listed building that is treating it sympathetically is the best
outcome we’re ever likely to get with listed buildings. So,
shall we close the petition? I understand the hotel is either open
or about to open.
|
[68]
‘Resurfacing of the A40 Raglan-Abergavenny Road’. The
Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that work to design
noise-mitigation measures on a section of the road will commence
this financial year. A new noise survey of trunk roads will also be
carried out this year, but there’s no mention of resurfacing
the road. We’ve had correspondence from both the petitioner
and Nick Ramsay, who referred to the 2013-18 noise action plan and
previous ministerial correspondence, which contained a commitment
to resurfacing the road. So, shall we write to the Minister asking
why the previous commitments made
to resurface are yet to be delivered, and when it’s going to
be resurfaced?
|
[69]
Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes. I mean, this isn’t good to
read, is it?
|
[70]
‘The Noise Action Plan (2013-18) states’—
|
[71]
—and we’re in 2017 now—
|
[72]
‘that this road is a priority, after the consultation
responses received and the measurements taken. Yet no progress has
been made despite repeated calls from residents, the local County
Councillor, Assembly Member and Member of Parliament. We, the
undersigned, state that this road—’
|
[73]
I mean, yes, that’s just where democracy isn’t working,
and maybe we could do something about it.
|
[74]
Mike Hedges: I think if we write and see if we can get a date for
it to be done.
|
[75]
‘Save Our Bus’. The Gilfach Goch to Pontypridd bus was
being closed in January 2016. Information provided by Bus Users
Cymru is that, following discussions between RCT council and
Stagecoach, a survey of passengers on the service has recently been
conducted. The changes made by Stagecoach mean that passengers are
now required to change buses if travelling between Gilfach Goch and
Pontypridd. Write to the petitioners and ask for any comments
they’ve got? I think this is an example of dealing with
something quickly, because we’re now going back to January
2016. We’re sort of 14 months on. I think we really do need,
as a committee, to make sure that these things are dealt with
expeditiously, because things have moved on.
|
[76]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
We’re on about bus use
now?
|
[77]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
|
[78]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Well, can I just say, we’ve just
had that inquiry when we went to, you know—all about
people’s use of—. You know, the disabled people in
particular; a lot of elderly people fall into that bracket.
So, we’ve gone and done all that, and then here we
are—still, we’ve got this situation. So, I think we
need to send—. You know, we need to do something about
it.
|
[79]
Mike Hedges: Let’s go back to the petitioners with the
comments we’ve received and let them come back to us, and
then we can see how we want to take it forward.
|
[80]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Well, I don’t know whether
that’s good enough, Chairman, to be honest. What’s the
point of us, here, learning that people with disabilities really
struggle to access buses, and then here we have evidence that
one’s been taken away, and that’s going to
significantly affect residents? I think that we ought to be a
little bit more—. Go back to the Minister in particular, and
say—. We’re saying one thing. We’re spending
money—taxpayers’ money—on staff time, gaining
evidence that things aren’t working right, and then saying,
‘Oh, well, okay, we’ve done that inquiry.’ But
then, this one jumps up and says, ‘Well, actually, this is
happening now.’
|
[81]
Gareth Bennett:
It’s slightly complicated, Chair,
in that the petitioner is on about a direct service from Gilfach to
Ponty, and you can actually get buses from Gilfach to Ponty that
change at Porth, so it’s not totally losing all of its
services. It’s the difficulty in changing at Porth and
wanting to retain the direct service.
|
[82]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
If you’ve got disabilities or if
you’re elderly—. When I go on the train, you sort of
go, ‘Ugh, do I have to change?’ You know, because
it’s all the inconvenience, but it’s also if
you’re not well, or if you’ve got disabilities, it can
actually be quite hard, changing. So, could we not just write back
and say we’ve discussed it here, and some of the Members feel
that maybe they could come forward with some other kind
of—?
|
[83]
Mike Hedges: What I was going to suggest is that we could
reference it in our report that we’re writing regarding the
bus users et cetera. We could reference the fact that one of the
problems that exists is when through buses are changed into buses
where you have to change, and that can have an effect on disabled
people.
|
[84]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Right. Can we not even write to the local
authority and see if they’ll help in some way?
|
[85]
Mike Hedges: Yes, we can, but I was just trying to see how we
could fit it in to—
|
[86]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
But writing it in a report doesn’t
solve the issue, does it?
|
[87]
Mike Hedges: Right, shall we write to—
|
[88]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Sorry.
|
[89]
Mr Francis: One other option: the information we’ve had
from Bus Users Cymru suggests that Stagecoach have been—.
Stagecoach is the operator in this place, who have made the
decision to stop the through bus. They’ve done a survey of
passengers recently, and one option for the committee could be to
write to Stagecoach and ask for the outcome of that consultation
and what they’re doing.
|
[90]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Yes, let’s do it.
|
[91]
Mike Hedges: Yes, okay.
|
[92]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I think we do need to scrutinise things a
little bit more. Thanks.
|
[93]
Mike Hedges: ‘Trees in Towns’. NRW have previously
confirmed details of the support and guidance available to local
authorities regarding tree planting in towns. We’ve written
to the petitioners, but they haven’t come back to
us.
|
[94]
Neil McEvoy: That’s a shame, isn’t it, with 2,000
signatures?
|
[95]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I was going to say, yes.
|
[96]
Mike Hedges: I think that, sometimes—and I may be wrong with
this petition—sometimes people use this as a means of
highlighting something, and they’ve been successful in
highlighting the need for more trees in towns, I think. It’s
very much an opportunity to highlight the need. But as they
haven’t come back to us, shall we close the petition? Or do
you want to go back to them again?
|
[97]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
So, did they have a response from a
Minister or—?
|
[98]
Mike Hedges: Yes.
|
[99]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I’ve not got it, sorry.
|
[100]
Mr Francis: In previous meetings, the committee has considered
responses from the Minister and from Natural Resources Wales about
this, and, previously, the petitioner.
|
[101]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
And what are they doing about
it?
|
[102]
Mr Francis: I think, from memory, there are guidelines available
to support local authorities in the value of trees. I think we
previously asked questioned about funding as well.
|
[103]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Well, I mean we talk about air pollution.
Simon Thomas works hard here on it. Trees are a natural—.
They help to clean the air and everything. So actually, if you
think, again, we say things; we must do something about it. This is
one solution to the problem, so maybe we should be a little bit
more proactive on this one alone, because—.
|
[104]
Neil McEvoy: Shall we write to them again?
|
[105]
Mike Hedges: Write to the Minister again, asking—
|
[106]
Neil McEvoy: Write to Coed Cadw Woodland Trust, yes.
|
[107]
Mike Hedges: Write and ask what increase in tree coverage has
taken place in the last five years.
|
[108]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
You see them take them down; it’s
very rare you see trees planted.
|
09:30
|
[109] Neil McEvoy: I’m interested in what other plants can
be used as well, because in our manifesto for the council elections
we were talking about green infrastructure, which is basically
planting plants on concrete structures, such as the flyover at
Gabalfa, and it takes out 80 per cent of air pollution. It’s
really low-maintenance as well.
|
[110] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Aloe vera’s a really good one.
|
[111] Neil
McEvoy: I wonder if we could maybe push that a little bit.
|
[112] Mike
Hedges: The other thing is that—if I can highlight
Swansea council, who have spent a lot of time planting wild flowers
on roundabouts et cetera, for exactly the same reason, and it looks
better and we’ve got lots of wild flowers and daffodils
planted across Swansea, which has made a huge improvement.
|
[113] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Pardon the pun, but it only takes the seed of
an idea to actually come forward and actually deal with some of the
problems that we spend hours talking about.
|
[114] Mike
Hedges: Yes. ‘Review of Scalloping in Cardigan
Bay.’
|
[115] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Isn’t there going to be one? Isn’t
there going to be a review of this? I thought—. Isn’t
the Minister going to make a statement?
|
[116] Mike
Hedges: Well, if we write to the Minister we’ll get a
full response.
|
[117] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Yes, I’m sure I’ve seen it
somewhere where he’s coming forward with a statement on it,
anyway. But, yes, do it.
|
[118] Mike
Hedges: Scalloping in Cardigan bay—the petitioner’s
satisfied with what’s happening now, so shall we close the
petition and be pleased that the petitioner’s requests have
been met?
|
[119] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Well, if he’s asking for a review and
they haven’t had the review yet, how have we met it?
|
[120] Mr
Francis: I think a consultation was carried out over last
summer and the plan is that the fishery is going to be opened from
this summer. The petitioner had environmental concerns related to
that, but we’ve previously considered a statement made by the
Cabinet Secretary, and the petitioner in his latest comments has
indicated he was broadly satisfied with the outcome of that.
|
[121] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Okay, fine. Close it.
|
[122] Mike
Hedges: ‘No Further Actions on Nitrate Vulnerable Zones
(NVZ) In Wales At All’—the Cabinet Secretary provided a
detailed outline of the issues being considered by the Welsh
Government in determining the future course of action on nitrate
vulnerable zones and we’re awaiting a Government
announcement. This is one where we’ve had both sides
petitioning us, haven’t we? Some people saying that it should
be allowed and other people saying it shouldn’t.
|
[123] Mr
Francis: We did have, though the petition in favour of nitrate
zones didn’t receive the required number of signatures.
|
[124] Mike
Hedges: Okay. So, shall we await the Government’s
announcement? We’ll hold the petition, because if we’re
not happy with the announcement we can come back to it, then.
Yes.
|
[125] Communities and
children: ‘Ensure Disabled People’s Housing Adaptation
Needs Are Adequately Met’—we considered it on 11
October. We’ve had a Welsh Local Government Association
response. We haven’t had the response of Disability Wales.
The petitioner was told that it would be considered by the
committee. We haven’t had a response from the petitioner
either. The WLGA has welcomed the new framework for delivering
adaptations and additional funding provided by the Welsh
Government. They’ve also highlighted the need for training
for front-line staff. Shall we write to the petitioners again with
the WLGA’s comments and ask them for their comments on it?
Yes?
|
[126] Neil
McEvoy: Yes.
|
[127]
Mike Hedges: Okay.
|
[128] Mr
Francis: The petitioners are running late in traffic, so we may
want to pause shortly.
|
[129] Mike
Hedges: Okay. The petitioners, I’m told, are running
late. They’ve been hit by the traffic, which I could’ve
told them about—that’s why I come here quite early in
the morning, to avoid it.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:34 a
09:44.
The meeting adjourned between 09:34 and 09:44.
|
Sesiwn Dystiolaeth: P-04-628
Mynediad at Iaith Arwyddion Prydain i Bawb
Evidence Session: P-04-628
To Improve Access to Education and Services in British Sign
Language
|
[130] Mike
Hedges: Good morning. Can I welcome members of Deffo!,
who’ve come to talk to us about British Sign Language? Can I
also, for the record, say my sister is profoundly deaf and she does
use sign language so I have some knowledge of it and I also know
Cathie reasonably well because I see her quite often in Swansea?
So, if I make those two declarations, and I think somebody wants to
make an opening statement.
|
09:45
|
[131] Ms C.
Robins-Talbot: I’m going to sign, so I don’t need
the microphone. We would just like to say, first of all, thank you
for inviting us here today. It’s a great opportunity for us
to give you more information, to talk about our experiences. So,
thank you for that. I apologise that, because of work commitments,
not everybody could make it. But the aim of our petition we feel is
very important, about the barriers that deaf people are still
facing, deaf people who use sign language—not just young
people but primarily we’re focusing on young people—and
we want to focus on education as well as other services.
|
[132] One of the areas
we feel strongly about is education for young people because of the
barriers that still persist. There’s no education that is
completely through medium of sign language. We think
everybody—not just deaf people, but everybody—should
have the opportunity to learn BSL on the curriculum. Also, families
should have that opportunity as well. So, we’re pleased to be
able to give our experiences and our views today. We’ve a
small handout of a letter, if you would like to have a look at a
copy of that. That is a supporting letter that we’ve got.
It’s information that would be regarded as evidence, I
believe. Helen will hand those out.
|
[133] Mike
Hedges: Thank you. Okay. Can I again thank you? I’m going
to ask some questions around British sign Language and its
availability and its need for families. You say you’d like to
make some comments on how important it is the wider family,
especially parents and siblings, learn British Sign Language, and
how that would benefit deaf children and what demand you see for
it.
|
[134] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: One of the things that we’ve found,
working with families, is that there is nothing out there for
parents to access unless they pay for sign language classes, which
can be quite expensive. They start off at an average of £300
for level 1, going up to anything from £1,200 to £1,600
for level 3, which we think is the appropriate level—level
3—to be able to communicate effectively with your children if
you’re going to develop them educationally.
|
[135] When we first
put this petition in, we were told that it’s the job of the
local authority to provide these accesses. So, I went home and I
rang the local authorities, a number of them, and they said that
there is no facility whereby parents—this is what we’re
aiming for—of deaf children can actually access free sign
language courses, or there’s nothing for children either. To
us, this is a bit naughty because you wouldn’t expect your
children to go to school if they didn’t understand what they
were being taught. We don’t expect deaf children to go to
school and not understand what they’re taught either. Then we
were told that there was finance available, which would be through
the local authorities. So, again, I went home and I rang around,
and, yes, lifelong learning does have a budget for adult education.
However, it was perceived, at that time, for there to be no need
for BSL classes.
|
[136] With one of my
other hats on, I manage the Swansea Centre for Deaf People, and for
the last three years, I think, now, we’ve run at
least—because of the limitations of our centre at the
moment—we’ve run at least three courses a year, with
high demand. It’s got to the point where Talking Hands, which
supports Deffo! and the parents and families are actually applying
their funding to support parents to learn to sign by paying the
deposit on the classes. To date, we’ve had, I think, 11
parents take us up on that offer to pay the deposit for them.
We’re also piloting a course at the moment, which
Cathie’s delivering on our behalf, with young people. The
youngest in the class is seven and the oldest in the class is 16.
It’s been quite effective. Just to show, for our own peace of
mind, that if you did put sign language in front of children, they
would lean it. As I say, I think in two weeks, there are seven or
eight on a 15-week course at the moment.
|
[137] So, our
evidence—or rather, what we have collected or tried to
collect; we don’t have a lot of resources to carry out huge
research—what we have found is that, quite simply, there is
nothing there. And whilst we understand that the education of these
children is the responsibility of the local authorities, the
provision of sign language, we feel, should be the responsibility
of Government, because there’s a different—.
We’re not querying children’s education at the moment,
maybe that’s a battle for another day, but right now,
we’re concerned about their access to their own language,
that when they leave school, or even when they’re in school,
they can’t communicate with these people who are their peers,
and they can’t communicate or understand interpreters, which
is their right, as they grow, for access to work and everything
else. So, unless they learn sign language from a young age and
start using it as an everyday language—. We tie it very
closely to the Welsh language; the struggle is the same, the battle
is the same, and they’re a minority group. And the other
problem we find is that by classing them as disabled or with
special educational needs, they come under a provision that
doesn’t actually look at the fact that they’re actually
deaf young adults. We appreciate, of course, that there are deaf
people who have additional needs, but they’re not all deaf
with additional needs. They’re a minority language group, and
that’s how we’d like to have them looked at,
really.
|
[138]
Mike Hedges: Okay, thank you. The last question from me
is—and I’m almost asking this on behalf of my
sister—the importance of siblings learning sign language to
aid communication within the family. Is there anything you’d
like to say on that?
|
[139] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: Yes. Those
who’ve got it—I’m sorry, we didn’t bring
enough—but there’s a part in here where we’ve had
some information from parents, which we’ve provided. One of
things that they’ve said is having a deaf child in the family
often leads to one of two things: either the deaf child becomes
special, because they’re deaf and because they need a little
bit more attention paid to them to make sure they understand
everything that’s going, which leaves the other siblings out
of it, but also, if the other siblings don’t learn to
communicate with them, they find that there are family breakdowns
as well. So, as I say, this pilot we’ve got, with Cathie
running it at the moment, we’re actually taking sibling
groups as well now to try it. It seems to be working quite
effectively, and, like I say, the parents are taking it on as well.
So, yes, we think it’s really important that families of deaf
children should be given access to the BSL courses.
|
[140]
Mike Hedges: Thank you very much. Gareth.
|
[141]
Gareth Bennett:
Yes, thanks—
|
[142]
Mr Collins-Hayes:
Could I add something?
|
[143]
Mike Hedges: Yes, sorry.
|
[144]
Mr Collins-Hayes:
It’s really important that families
learn to sign. Obviously, that’s connected to early diagnosis
as well, and early development of language, and that’s so
crucial, because if you don’t have any communication at a
young age, you’re going to face bigger barriers as you grow
up. You’re going to be constantly behind in the education
system, and you’re always going to feel ‘less
than’.
|
[145] Ms Pallenson: I grew up in a family
that didn’t sign—what I would class as a ‘hearing
family’, and I always feel like my education has been a bit
behind everybody else. I feel, in family situations, I’m left
out. I was sent to boarding school to try and catch up in terms of
education. So, that meant moving to England, not being able to stay
in Wales with my family, and fighting with the council constantly,
asking for me to go to a school that would allow my education to be
good. I would have preferred to have stayed in Wales to be
educated, rather than sent to England.
|
[146]
Mike Hedges: There used to be a school in Wales, Ashgrove, but it
ended up closing down, unfortunately. But that did provide
residential opportunities within Wales.
|
[147] Ms C. Robins-Talbot: That’s
correct, yes. It was a school for the deaf. It was originally in
Llandrindod Wells. I think that closed probably 30 or 40 years ago,
and they relocated to Penarth. And I think it was about two years
ago when, finally, the building was closed and it was demolished.
So, now we have no school for deaf children in Wales at all. We
have all deaf children in mainstream. In my time, we’re
talking 30 years ago now—when I went to school, I was in a
mainstream school and we had what were called ‘partial
hearing units’. We had a teacher of the deaf who would teach
a large number of us deaf children together. It was West Glamorgan
in those days; you know, it wasn’t 22 local authorities. But
when the authorities changed, that’s when we became affected.
So, it might be that, then, one or two deaf children would be in
one school, and they were much more scattered. Communications
support workers weren’t available in many of these schools to
support the deaf children through their education and that’s
when the deficit got even worse. So, having sign language, having
extra support, would mean that children would be better educated in
Wales.
|
[148] Mike
Hedges: Okay. Thank you. Gareth.
|
[149] Gareth
Bennett: So, just to be clear on what you’re aiming for,
it sounds as if you would like there to be a deaf school in
Wales.
|
[150] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Ultimately, we would. What we’re actually
asking for, through the petition, is for BSL to be put on the
national curriculum to give everyone the opportunity to learn it,
because the way we’re looking at it is that the more people
in society who can sign, even if it’s just your local
shopkeeper who can ask you what you want, or you go to a local pub
and want a pint—and, instead of having to point at
everything, someone can then say, ‘Oh, you want a
pint’, you know. So, we think that if it’s in education
then people will take it on.
|
[151] I used to work
in a school before and one of the things that we used to do, when
the new year 7 started, we would teach their form the basics, like
‘Good morning’, ‘How are you?’ and then, as
it went on, it was, ‘What did you do at the weekend?’
and ‘Do you like football?’ We found that, after that
initial start-up, they would befriend the deaf and some of them,
even today—we bump into them in town and things like
that—and they come straight on and they talk to Cathie,
because they never forget it. They remember it, and even if
it’s just that basic conversation—without the fact that
it leads to future employment for deaf and hearing people, because
interpreters are always going to be needed, hopefully, it’ll
lead to better employment opportunities for deaf people as well,
because at the moment we tell them that they have to go to work and
all the rest of it, but where? The jobs just aren’t
there.
|
[152] Gareth
Bennett: How far is—? Oh, sorry, you wanted
to—.
|
[153] Mr
Collins-Hayes: I’m from England, and grew up in a deaf
family. We moved to Wales three years ago, because I was studying
at university. So, growing up in a deaf boarding school, I felt
that I was equal with everybody else. I didn’t see any
barriers in life at the time—everybody could communicate
through sign language, the teaching was in BSL, and I felt the same
as everybody else, but I came to Wales and realised that there were
huge barriers, because children who go into mainstream school
sometimes can be isolated—they can be the only deaf child,
and that can be very scary. They can feel very lonely. It’s
important to have a number of deaf units, where there’s good
support so that they can mix together as a small group and get the
support they need.
|
[154] Ms C.
Robins-Talbot: I think also, on the back of what both of the
others have said, the dream of having a deaf school in Wales is
still a dream, I think. In reality, I don’t think
that’s going to happen, but I think that education for deaf
children is very important. I don’t think it should matter
what your hearing loss is. What we’re trying to say, really,
is that we believe that language is important. It doesn’t
mean—if you’re in a deaf school or whether you’re
in a mainstream, it’s language that should be available
wherever you are within education, and it should start before
you’re in education, not just at school, so that you’ve
got those building blocks ready for education.
|
[155] If you think
about the Welsh language and Welsh people going to Welsh schools,
how do they get the language to begin with? It starts in the home
and it’s not seen as a disability if you speak Welsh. The
same if you use BSL—it shouldn’t be seen as a
disability; it’s just giving access to language to improve
their experiences and to make those people have what they need.
|
[156] One area of
research that we have worked on—there was a group called Deaf
Ex-Mainstreamers, DEX, the organisation, and they did some work
where they were showing that if you give deaf children access to
sign language really early then education is better. It’s not
going to affect speech and language as previous spurious research
had suggested. You can be an expert in lip-reading but still only
get 30 per cent of what is said, and our children, if they’re
being taught only to speak and to lip-read, are suffering because
they’re always going to be behind because of the deficit in
the ability to lip-read proficiently. So, what we want is the
language recognised as an official language and then we want the
provision that goes with that. We want the facilities to have early
access to BSL. The group showed that providing this—. And
there’s evidence that language is a barrier for deaf children
when they’re deprived of it. So, we’re hoping that you
will see from the opportunity, the evidence we’ve given
today, and maybe if you need to do some more research—it
mightn’t be needed—but if you could also listen to
personal experience as well, because we would like you very much to
support that. The experts have shown that it is beneficial.
|
10:00
|
[157] Gareth
Bennett: Have there been examples so far of mainstream schools
teaching BSL, and how has it worked?
|
[158] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: We haven’t found any. You see
there’s a conception that if a child goes to school and they
have a unit where they have access to a teacher of the deaf or a
support worker they’re actually being taught BSL. But
they’re not being taught BSL, because the education authority
says that they have to follow the English, so the BSL follows the
English word pattern. Whereas these don’t use any of
that—they don’t use ‘is’, ‘on’;
their language is very different. And what we feel is is what
Cathie said: if our children are immersed, like you are when you do
Welsh—when you learn Welsh, you are immersed in Welsh, you
don’t learn English, you don’t learn anything until
you’ve learned Welsh. Once you’ve got Welsh, and you
understand the concepts of Welsh, then we can teach you maths, then
we can teach you English, then we can go through science.
|
[159] It’s
exactly the same with BSL. It’s all right to say,
‘They’ve got it’, but, very often, when we work
with our children, if you say something—I don’t know,
just say to them, ‘Why do you think the sky is blue?’,
they learn the concept, ‘That’s a colour; it’s a
colour.’ We don’t know why, what’s behind it, the
science; no-one’s able to sit down and explain to them,
‘The sky is blue because of this, that, or the other’,
or ‘We have to do this, because this is the way society
works’. They haven’t got the concept. Maths is a huge
problem, because there are a lot of concepts in maths, and, if they
don’t understand the concept, they’re not going to
learn. All of us are the same—we all have to understand
before we’re being taught. And one of the problems with our
children is we assume that, because they have a support worker,
because they’re having access to a teacher of the deaf,
they’re actually being taught BSL. Well, they’re not.
It isn’t happening, in schools or anywhere else.
They’re having access maybe to sign language, but
they’re not being taught in BSL.
|
[160] Gareth
Bennett: Thank you.
|
[161]
Mike Hedges: As you know, I’ve been raising the need for
British Sign Language to be dealt with as equivalent of English or
Welsh, and treat GCSE first language British Sign Language to be
exactly the same as a GCSE in English or Welsh first language.
Curriculum Wales are fighting very strongly back against that, but
I intend to keep on putting pressure on, because I think it’s
the right thing to do.
|
[162] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Can I just reply to that? Because we asked the
parents this, because, when Alun Davies came out to visit the
group, one of the things the parents said was that anything that
improves access to BSL and raises awareness is brilliant, and the
GCSE is great. But we don’t understand if our children are
going to be taught like we learn English from small, and we grow up
and we develop our language and we go to school and they teach us
where to put the full-stops, the commas, and the question marks,
and all the rest of it. A GCSE is fabulous, but is it for deaf
children? So, when will we start teaching our children to prepare
them for a GCSE? When they’re 11? That’s far too
late.
|
[163]
Mike Hedges: But we start preparing for GCSE when we start school
at three, don’t we, in terms of English or Welsh as a first
language, or even prior to that, when children go to Mudiad
Meithrin, or Ti a Fi, they start off the language at that stage,
and everything is geared towards the final examinations. So, I
would hope that, at some stage, we do exactly the same with sign
language, so that the whole thing is geared towards eventually
taking examinations. Sorry, Gareth.
|
[164]
Gareth Bennett:
If you were successful in getting BSL on
the curriculum, would there be any problems with getting enough
staff to teach it?
|
[165] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Cathie and I have lived in fear of this question
for a long time. Because we think—. We sit here, and we
encourage young people to bring things to Parliament, power, speak
to the people who know, and we know in our hearts there are no
people out there qualified at the moment. So, we need to start off
by encouraging deaf people to become tutors, to become teachers, so
that they can teach somebody. Because, ideally, that’s what
you would want—a deaf role model for a deaf child. So, we
need that, and one of the things that we already know is, if
we’re successful with putting BSL on the national curriculum,
it’s not going to happen tomorrow, it probably won’t
happen next year, and it probably won’t happen for another
two years. Because the people out there who we need to
train—these people—just don’t have the skills to
do it yet. So, that’s our honest answer, and a fair one, I
think.
|
[166] Mike
Hedges: Neil.
|
[167] Neil
McEvoy: I just wanted to pick on the tutor aspect of
things.
|
[168] Ms C.
Robins-Talbot: Can I also say—? Sorry, to add to what
Helen said, having BSL on the national curriculum would affect
everybody, obviously, and deaf people go to airports, they go
shops, they go to jobs, and so every day there’s the
potential to meet deaf people. And so having it on the curriculum
for everybody means that you’re allowing better access.
It’s not only about providing access for deaf people, but
it’s also giving other people skills to interact. And, in
Wales, we’ve got 3,000 deaf children living in Wales, and 90
per cent of those are from hearing families. So, they have no
contact with deaf people and they have no role models in life
growing up. There’s been a youth club for the deaf for the
last 20 years, and some of our children come for the very first
time and they go, ‘Oh, so there’s deaf adults’,
because some of them really think that when they grow up
they’re not going to be deaf, that they’re going to be
able to hear, and they’re like, ‘Oh, so you’re
deaf but you’re grown up, and you’ve got a degree and
you’ve been to university, and you’ve got a job.’
They really, genuinely, have no idea what’s ahead for
them.
|
[169] And it’s
not just about learning sign language—it’s about giving
them aspirations, and that’s why we’re asking for the
three points that we’ve asked for: for it to be on the
curriculum, for the opportunity for deaf children to have support
through BSL in school, and for families to learn sign language at
an early age. And I know the Welsh Government has funded
interpreter training through BSL Futures, and that was great. I
really congratulate the Welsh Assembly on taking that step, and
that will obviously help the deaf community, and that’s
fantastic, but it’s not enough, it’s not a complete
measure. We need more of that. We need the cost of deaf children
learning to sign. We need the schools to take on BSL as well so
that they’re thinking ahead to the longevity of the
school.
|
[170] Mike
Hedges: Thank you. Neil.
|
[171] Neil
McEvoy: Just about tutors, really. I went to Cardiff Deaf
Creative Hands and met a lot of people a few months ago. And I met
some people who said they’re not allowed to be tutors of
profoundly deaf children, because the emphasis is on lip-reading
and language acquisition.
|
[172] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: There is a lot of emphasis in schools on
children following the English model, which means they have to
learn to lip-read. Like I say, just because they go to a school
regularly doesn’t mean to say they automatically get access
to anyone that actually signs. And I think this is the
thing—it’s got to be a matter of choice. We’re
not in this place to turn around and say that all deaf must sign
and all hearing must sign. It has to be a choice where—. I
think one of the problems that we have is of family. When Cathie
was in school, units were massive. All the parents met, all the
parents chatted, ‘Oh, where is she going to college,
university?’ whatever, and, ‘Oh, how did you manage to
do that?’, and they find things out. Today, that’s not
happening because a lot of schools don’t have units and the
children are mainstreamed. So, unless they find things like
Creative Hands, like Talking Hands, and organisations that are
there, many of them are left out there isolated. The children go
through huge frustrations, and then that’s when they go and
try to find help, which is usually in their teens and then they
find people like us, I hope, like Creative Hands, like—.
There’s quite a few set up now—Family Sign Language,
things like this—where people can actually go and say,
‘Where do we go? Where we can we take them? What can they
do?’, because I’ve got a little two-year old in my
group. Her sister is deaf, and this two-year old is able to spell
her name, she uses my signing, she can tell me when she leaves
she’s going to see me next week or tomorrow, because they
live with me half the time. So, it’s not impossible to learn,
and it should be there, but, unfortunately, if people don’t
know that their children—.
|
[173] I’ll give
you an example that some of the parents have told us. When
you’re diagnosed with a baby who’s deaf, I can
understand it’s terrifying. I’ve got deaf people in my
family, but I can understand it’s terrifying. And then you
think—. The first thing a lot of parents have said to us is,
‘Well, what are they going to be able to do?’
They’re babies. ‘What are they going to be able to
do?’ They’re already thinking of them being 25 and
looking for work: ‘What are they going to be able to
do?’ No, let’s go back. Let’s start off with the
simple things. Let’s join a club. Let’s meet other
parents who are the same as you. Let’s give them access to
sign language. Because a lot of them they feel the pressure and
think, ‘They’ve got to come into my family. My family
is hearing. Cochlear implants—’, you know, that’s
the main thing.
|
[174] Not all children
can be cochlear implanted. Not all children can be. So there has to
be a service there somewhere, not a one-size-fits-all, but fits the
individual people. There has to be more information out there about
where you can go to get services. A lot of our parents have told us
in this little survey that, when the baby’s in hospital, when
you have this baby, and you’re told the baby’s deaf,
it’s sort of, ‘That’s it.’ You don’t
see nobody for weeks. It takes ages before a teacher of the deaf or
someone who’s a specialist can come and see you. It takes
weeks. So they’ve got this baby that they know is deaf. Do
they talk to it? I don’t know. Do you know what I mean? Those
are the frustrations they have. They’re not told where to go,
and when they get in touch then with someone, perhaps a teacher of
the deaf who may say, ‘Oh, but I’ve heard there’s
a group down the road’, and they come, and then when they
come in, because there are deaf people in there, they feel a bit
‘Oh’—they can’t sign
themselves—‘and this is the world my child’s
going to be in.’ But, as you can see, Cathie, Luke,
they’ve all been to university. Cathie’s got an MA. You
can get there. He’s doing a degree. She’s been to
university. They can achieve, and these are the people we want as
role models for our parents, to show that they get married, they
have children, the same as us. They go to work, they’re
unemployed—whatever the normal thing is out in society.
They’re the same. They’re all the same. They’re
working, they’re not working, they’re in education,
they’re not in education. This is what the parents need to
see.
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[175] This is one of
the things they all told us: it’s that early bit, when you
have this baby, and they always say, ‘I’m sorry, the
baby’s deaf. I’m sorry.’ That’s a big
apology, isn’t it? So, straight away there’s something
wrong with the child. It’s the same with all disabilities.
You know it’s not just deaf children where the parents get
that sort of news. There should be a system within that first point
of contact, which of course is medical, to be able to say,
‘Breathe. Take your time. There are places you can go. There
are systems out there to help you. It’s not that you’re
left alone with this child’, which many of them did feel, and
still do feel, because they feel it’s a constant battle to
get—. You know, ‘Is my child entitled to have a support
worker?’ ‘Oh, they wear hearing aids, they’re
okay, they speak well, that’s fine’, so they
don’t get them. But it’s a choice. The parents want
them to have that. The parents want them to learn sign
language.
|
[176] One parent here,
her boy is eight, and he’s just had an operation for a
cochlear implant. But she said she waited until he was eight
because she wanted him to be part of the decision-making process.
But all the family are learning to sign, because they know that if
it doesn’t work, this boy is going to be profoundly deaf. So,
they’re all learning to sign now to prepare themselves for
it. I think these are the things you have to look at. What she said
was that her boy woke up deaf, and one of her arguments was,
‘We go to school and we teach the children to speak Spanish,
Italian, French, whatever, for the odd school trip they might go
on. But, you don’t wake up speaking Spanish, but you can wake
up being deaf.’ She said that was really important to her, to
realise that her boy just woke up deaf. We know another person that
did the same at 11—just woke up one morning deaf.
|
[177] So, it affects
us all. It affects all our families. I don’t know if
you’ve ever met deaf people. I know Mike has, because
we’re boring Mike constantly. But it’s that feeling of
having to do that; that unless you knock on their doors and force
them—. I’m not saying you’ve been forced into the
situation, but this is where we are now, trying to raise awareness
of something that’s been out there for years.
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[178]
Mike Hedges: I know Janet wants to come in and I know Neil wants
to come back.
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[179] Janet Finch-Saunders: Have we moved on to
No. 3 yet, or—?
|
[180]
Mike Hedges: Well, I think if we ignore the numbers, then we just
go on as we are.
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[181]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Okay, that’s fine. Before I come to
our research paper and the question I was going to ask, I was going
to say that, clearly, population size where Wales is concerned as
against England, do you feel that there are better provisions over
the border?
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[182]
Mr Collins-Hayes:
Yes, absolutely. I’m from England.
I’ve grown up and, moving into Wales, can see the disparity.
I had options. The options here are limited. For example, I see
with Zoe and my partner, who’s from Wales, that they’ve
had to go to England to be educated, and they’ve told me
their stories. They just felt that the education was better in
England, so they didn’t really want to stay in Wales.
They’ve come back more confident. They’ve been able to
go to university. This wouldn’t have happened if they’d
stayed in Wales and been educated. So, they’ve had to go out
to be educated.
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[183]
Ms Pallenson: If I hadn’t gone to England, I would have just
been isolated at home. I wouldn’t have had friends, I
wouldn’t have been able to talk to people, I wouldn’t
have any confidence. I wouldn’t even be here now, sitting in
front of you.
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10:15
|
[184] Ms C. Robins-Talbot: Just to add to that, I grew up in a mainstream
school. I was born into a hearing family—one of the 90 per
cent—and my family tried very hard, they fought for me
every step of the way, to have access to sign language—to
BSL—and to English, because they felt that both were
important. And I left school, and I wanted to go to Derby College,
which was in England, unfortunately. So, the local authority were a
bit like, ‘Well, it’s cheaper for you to go to a local
college.’ But my family fought for it, and I was one of the
lucky people that they agreed to fund, and I did go to a deaf
college, up in Derby. You know, we’re talking 30 years ago,
but it was very difficult then, but I’m sure it’s still
as difficult today.
|
[185] So, I went to
the college, and, for the first year of my college life, I learned
what it was like to be deaf—yes, a grown-up deaf; yes,
I’d learned sign language; yes, I was using sign language,
but I hadn’t really taken on board all that it meant to be
deaf. I felt that my learning just increased exponentially by being
in that environment. From that, I came back to Wales, got involved
with youth work, and it’s all thanks to the college in Derby.
If I hadn’t gone—you know, my family were very
supportive, and encouraged me, and believed in me—but I
believe that I would just be outside washing the car, or maybe
having mental health problems, emotional issues, because I
wouldn’t have been allowed to achieve my potential. And I see
the children who are going through this now, and I think, it
shouldn’t be, in this day and age—you know, it’s
happening again. We need to protect the future of our deaf children
in Wales.
|
[186] Mr
Collins-Hayes: I think it’s important that deaf children
have confidence. The boys from England—you know, the school I
went to, it was great. We would visit people, and not mind where we
went, who we talked to, and it might be just five, six or seven,
but if you’ve got language in common, you’ll talk to
anybody. If you meet somebody in the street who’s deaf, they
tend to withdraw from society; it’s very different. But I met
another boy who was deaf, and I said to him, ‘Come and get
involved in football’, and, suddenly, when he had that
contact and that language, he got involved, and he became suddenly
much more confident. He suddenly had a world that he could engage
with. And I just want what is happening already in England to
happen in Wales.
|
[187]
Mike Hedges: Okay, thank you. Neil, did you want to come
back?
|
[188]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I want to ask mine.
|
[189]
Mike Hedges: Go on, Janet.
|
[190]
Neil McEvoy: Go on. That’s okay.
|
[191]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
For me, just going on the curriculum
aspects alone, this says it all to me. The Assembly doesn’t
have powers to legislate on any languages other than Welsh,
although it can legislate in relation to languages within the
curriculum. There will be engagement with stakeholders on the new
curriculum. So, how will you feed into the new curriculum?
That’s one question. And then, of course, the First Minister
agreed in Plenary, on 17 January this year, to raise the issue of
BSL with Qualifications Wales. So, I think, as a committee, I would
like to ask how he’s gone on with that—ask
him.
|
[192]
But also, I and my staff had our first
BSL lesson—we’re learning BSL now—because I think
it’s a huge issue facing us in Wales. Whilst I appreciate
that people are born deaf, or can wake up deaf, the ageing society,
the demographics of Wales—my own constituency is the second
highest over 65—mean that a lot of people actually go through
the majority of their life with full hearing, but then they lose
their hearing. My father, at 91, was profoundly deaf, but it was a
gradual process. It went on for years. Probably for about 15 years,
he was very profoundly deaf, and, even until the very end, people
were confusing his deafness with confusion. I can’t tell you
how many arguments—even to the very few hours before his
death—that I’ve had: ‘He isn’t confused, he
can’t hear you.’ You know, ‘This is how you speak
to my dad.’
|
[193]
So, for me, I’ve become extremely
passionate, because you have to learn to live with that experience
sometimes to realise. He wasn’t the only one, but we have a
profoundly ageing nation, and we haven’t got the tools there,
we haven’t got the mechanisms in place, to ensure that people
can actually continue to live a life of any quality. So, seriously,
I am going to keep pressing now. I’ll work with the Chairman.
I think it’s about BSL, I think it’s about having the
facilities there for the children who are born deaf, it’s
about having a culture, and—I don’t like the word
‘holistic’. We should have a culture that supports
people and recognises the fact that, as people age, they get sight
impairment and they can become very profoundly deaf. We should be
putting those mechanisms in now, intervening and laying the
foundations now for support. I’m sorry, I’ve had a
little rant now, but I feel really passionately, because my local
authority recently have just cut North Wales Association of the
Deaf. They’ve just said, ‘We’re cutting your
funding.’ So, we’ve had meetings and we’ve had to
then get people in to do BSL, and probably, by the time we’ve
finished with our meetings, we’ll be costing more than if
they’d allowed that funding, and we’re not going to let
it go.
|
[194]
Ms H. Robins-Talbot:
One of our young people, I have to
mention—Hannah. She’s passed away now, she had cystic
fibrosis, but when we first set up this group she met with Keith
Towler. Keith is a lovely man, and he was a bit of a devil’s
advocate in our first meeting and he was winding them up and joking
around with them and everything, and he said to Hannah, ‘What
are you making all this fuss about? You’ve got equal
opportunities.’ And she said, ‘Yes, we do. But we never
have the opportunity to be equal.’
|
[195]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Absolutely right.
|
[196]
Ms H. Robins-Talbot:
And that’s one of the things that
he’s held onto for a long time. And if it
wasn’t—. To be fair, it was the previous Petitions
Committee where it came up with the language, and Bethan Jenkins
was sitting on that one, and she said, ‘It’s no
problem, it’s a language. Let’s go for it,’ sort
of thing. And they sent off for, I don’t know, for the
committee to go and research things, and it came back and she was
stunned to realise that you can’t legislate for any other
language. And it was through that Petitions Committee that that
moved on to the education and welfare Bill, because it affects
both. It affects the well-being as well.
|
[197]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I just have a final question, then: how
do you think the additional learning Bill—you know, this new
Bill that they’re bringing forward— will help you? And
also, do you feel now that you’re going to have any input
into the new curriculum?
|
[198]
Ms H. Robins-Talbot:
No. There are two issues here: when we
first started this conversation a long time ago, we were promised
that we would be involved in the Donaldson report, and the next
thing we knew it had been published. Endless attempts
afterwards—we understand that there are pilot
schools—to get involved in something with that to see where
they’re being piloted, if they’re being piloted in
schools with deaf children and what effect that’s having, and
the ALN Bill at the moment doesn’t hold a lot of water with
our parents because it specifically targets SEN. There is no
provision within the ALN Bill that actually says, ‘This is
how we’re going to look after your deaf
children.’
|
[199]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Okay. That was my last question, but
then, Chairman, can I make a plea—I hope my two colleagues
will support me—that we do call the education Cabinet
Secretary in—
|
[200]
Mike Hedges: We intend to.
|
[201]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
—and that this is one of the issues
on our agenda?
|
[202]
Mike Hedges: We’re calling the Cabinet Secretary for
Education in, or whoever the appropriate Minister is, to discuss
the evidence we’ve received today as part of our
inquiry.
|
[203]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
I’m talking now with particular
regard to the curriculum.
|
[204]
Mike Hedges: Yes. Everything we’re discussing today,
we’ll have an opportunity to talk about to either the Cabinet
Secretary or the Minister or whoever has responsibility for
it.
|
[205]
Ms C. Robins-Talbot:
Could I just add to Janet’s
question about how we could work with the curriculum? We’ve
got the opportunity from Deaf Ex-Mainstreamers’ research to
show how we can use that and adapt it to be a Welsh model. We have
a structure and a system, there’s research there, and
there’s nothing in Wales, so we can’t create everything
tomorrow. So, I say, rather than start from scratch, why not use
the model that they’ve used and trialled in England, and
adapt it to suit Wales. And then that would help everybody to
understand why the language is important. So, I would recommend
that would be a good starting point.
|
[206]
Ms H. Robins-Talbot:
This model was originally designed by
Meirion Prys Jones—used to be the CEO for the Welsh Language
Board. He’s now working with DEX to develop this, because
they reckon without it, if someone doesn’t start taking
action with it, that the language will become, well, it is classed
as endangered, but it may well become extinct. That report is in
there, actually.
|
[207]
Mike Hedges: We’ll have an opportunity to raise these with
Alun Davies on 27 June. He’s the Minister responsible. But
everything we’ve discussed today—
|
[208]
Janet Finch-Saunders:
Sorry, with all due respect, Chairman,
I’m asking can we have the education Cabinet Secretary in as
well.
|
[209] Mike Hedges: Well, I think that it’s
the Minister responsible who tends to come, and it falls under Alun
Davies’s responsibilities.
|
[210] Janet
Finch-Saunders: It’s going to be dealing with the
curriculum.
|
[211] Neil
McEvoy: Curriculum.
|
[212] Mr
Francis: Curriculum reform is under Kirsty Williams, the
Cabinet Secretary for Education, as you say.
|
[213] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Yes, I’d like to invite her.
|
[214] Mr
Francis: We could talk to the Government about that to see what
the options are. They may suggest that those questions could be
asked of Alun Davies.
|
[215] Janet
Finch-Saunders: Too late afterwards. Let’s do it.
|
[216] Mike
Hedges: We’ll ask if she can come along to talk about the
curriculum, then. Okay. On to you, then, Neil.
|
[217] Neil
McEvoy: Yes, thanks. So, the Equality Act isn’t very
effective, do you think?
|
[218] Janet
Finch-Saunders: I think that says it all.
|
[219] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: Well, all I can
say is that—
|
[220] Ms C.
Robins-Talbot: Can I give you an example of the Act? In
school, if you have to make reasonable adjustments for all of the
people in your class, including deaf children, they think,
‘Well, we’ve put a loop in and that covers our
provision for deaf children’. Again, it doesn’t look at
language. There’s no power in the Act. They think that one
token gesture will suit everybody. They’re not looking at
individual needs. Loops are not the solution for everybody,
unfortunately.
|
[221] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: One of the
things our parents have said is, ‘It’ all paper’.
It’s another piece of paper. It’s another piece of
paper that’s come over. We’ve got the United Nations
Convention on the Rights of the Child that says they should have
all these things.
|
[222] Neil
McEvoy: Oh, it’s just—
|
[223] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: But it’s
very specific and says about the right to use your language, and
that’s another piece of paper. So, if you go in and you
think, ‘I’ve togged up for this. Now, I’ve made
myself aware of what’s going on, and this is what I need to
say’, and we say ‘Article 12, article 30’. And we
teach the children all of this, and then it becomes another piece
of paper because there’s no finance behind it. It has no
teeth. It has no teeth.
|
[224] Neil
McEvoy: Just personally, really, for you guys, how do you feel
not being able to access services?
|
[225] Mr Collins-Hayes: I just feel
demoralised. I’m lucky enough to have some confidence and
some ability to fight for what I want, but I don’t think
others have that. There are a few people like me, but most
aren’t, and so you end up fighting on behalf of others
too.
|
[226] Ms Pallenson: And I’m not like him. I’ve not
always been full of confidence. I’m quite nervous and
I’m not used to doing things like this. So, I need to have my
confidence built up, and I need people around me that can help.
It’s all ages, not just young people. It’s about having
older people around me as I grow up, to learn from, to have access
to sign language, to feel that I can have a job in the future, that
I can do things like everybody else.
|
[227] Neil
McEvoy: Yes. I think it’s outrageous that this
institution doesn’t have the power to legislate. Absolutely
outrageous. So, I thank you for bringing that to our attention,
really.
|
[228] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: For Cathie and
I—something that keeps coming back to our minds—we went
to Hungary in 2006. When we went to Hungary in 2006, when we were
telling them about things that we had that we thought were amazing
at the time—like we had text phones so we could make phone
calls, we had the disability living allowance to help us to do
other things, there had just been the first BSL march to get BSL
recognised—and we were talking to these well-educated
students who somehow had got themselves through education with no
interpreters—nothing, but by pure hard slog—they said
to us, ‘Oh, you’re so lucky to have all that’.
And when they came here to visit and they saw what we
thought—you know what they say: that the grass is always
greener; you never think about what you’ve got. When these
young people came here on a visit with us, they were just astounded
by all these facilities that we had, and yet we were shocked when,
in 2010 I think it was, the first deaf MEP to be elected to the
European Parliament was a deaf Hungarian. They were so far behind
us, and yet we seem, all the time, to be playing catch-up with
everything. A load of countries that you would consider to be
third-world countries have recognised BSL in its totality—you
know, everything about it, they’ve taken on board.
Scotland—they’re doing it. We’ve got lots of
friends in Scotland. We’re involved at the moment in the new
dialogue as to how they’re going to enforce it.
|
[229] Neil
McEvoy: What’s your view on Scotland and their
legislation?
|
[230] Ms H. Robins-Talbot: Well, we were
working in Scotland at the time, when it started, with the deaf
youth there who were on the youth parliament. I just think
it’s a huge step forward. We know it can’t happen
tomorrow. It’s impossible for it all to happen tomorrow, but
I think if there are strides towards it, people’s confidence
will start to build. They’ll want to learn, they’ll
want to go to work, and they’ll want to be able to be
involved in other things. It would improve that. At the moment,
they sit there and think, ‘What’s the point? I know
he’s been to university and hasn’t got a job. I know
he’s been to university and hasn’t got a job, and that
one’s a youth worker, but they haven’t got jobs.’
We’ve trained 47 deaf youth workers. The British Deaf
Association started it, but Cathie and I continued it and we
trained 47 deaf, part-time youth workers. And the only who’s
employed is in Cardiff and he’s part-time.
|
10:30
|
[231] Neil
McEvoy: Stuart.
|
[232] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Stuart, and he’s part-time, and he’s
employed by Cardiff. But that’s the only one who’s
employed throughout the whole of Wales. Forty seven young people
have been trained up to be youth workers, and they’re all
stacking shelves or not working, or just completely apathetic. If
you say to them, ‘Come on, get involved in something like
this’ they sit back and say, ‘What’s the
point?’
|
[233] Neil
McEvoy: So, there’s only one person employed
part-time.
|
[234] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Cathie’s employed privately.
Cathie’s a youth worker in—
|
[235] Neil
McEvoy: I mean through local authorities.
|
[236] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: But only Stuart, as far as we’re aware, in
Wales, is employed as a youth worker. And he works, I think, three
hours, down in Cardiff.
|
[237] Ms C.
Robins-Talbot: Yes, it’s a deaf youth club that
he’s working in. And when we were talking about the Scottish
Parliament, I think it shows us that it’s not impossible to
do this in Wales. We can do this. I know the power they have in
Scotland is more than we have in Wales currently, but I also feel
that, as a citizen of Wales, we have a responsibility to everybody
in Wales, and I think that allows us to give hope and to live for
the future of the deaf children, when we see what’s happening
in Scotland. And I know Ireland at the moment are going through the
process, and I know it’s one foot in front of the other and
they’re not near the end at all yet, but I really feel
that—. I don’t want to see Wales become the last one to
do this. I really want Wales to be looking at a BSL Act, and, if
individual Assembly Members support that, then it will take on a
life and it can be voted through the Assembly and it can make
progress.
|
[238] And that, then,
would cover education, it would cover health and employment, and
that’s what we would be doing, but, obviously, now we can
only focus on education presently because of the powers that the
Assembly has. So, we just need to continue supporting this, and we
need you to help us, if you believe in it, to see that, in Wales,
we can be the first to have a BSL GCSE.
|
[239] Neil
McEvoy: It makes perfect sense, really. I just want to make the
point about youth work. So, 0.5 per cent of the school population
gets a part-time youth worker in the whole of the country.
It’s quite incredible, quite incredible.
|
[240] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Cathie and I started up Talking Hands in 2009,
and we recently moved—well, not recently; we moved in
2007—into the Swansea Deaf Centre. In terms of numbers that
you get outside, our numbers are quite low, because, obviously, of
the incidence of deafness. But we continued, and our young people
come back, and we’ve got 24-year-olds who are coming back,
because they don’t know where else to go, so they come back.
They’re still in a youth club at 24, and we can’t turn
them away because there is nowhere else for them to go. And we now
have a full range, from pre-school group, a junior youth club, a
senior youth club, and we support Deffo!, because the BDA have
finished with the youth service in Wales, and we’ve taken
them under our wing because they’ve got no group,
they’ve got no finances, so we look after them.
|
[241] But every single
person that works with us is a volunteer. They are all parents.
Cathie and I have given our lives to it. The people here are
working with it because there’s just nothing else out there.
Same as Cardiff, same as a few other small groups. We’ve just
recently opened another club in Llanelli—very close, but the
distance is hard to travel. In north Wales, you will know that that
distance is twice as hard to travel. We used to run a youth club up
there, and one of the problems we found was transport, in that it
finished at 7 o’clock. A youth club is usually 6 till 9, so
kids couldn’t get home, hence they didn’t come. So,
there are lots of issues to overcome to bring kids into our
communities as well.
|
[242] Mike
Hedges: Does anybody else have any further questions? No. Well,
can I thank you for coming along, and what you said to us we will
be raising with whoever the appropriate Ministers, Cabinet
Secretaries are when we get an opportunity to speak to them, which
will be in a couple of weeks’ time.
|
[243] On a personal
note, I will just say that we talk about legislation; comprehensive
education was not brought into this country with legislation. It
was brought in by a Department of Education and Science circular,
and an awful lot of things can be done without legislation, but by
ministerial circulars to local authorities, and I think that may be
a direction we may well wish to try and push Ministers in. If you
send this circulars out, it can have a profound effect. Thank you
very much.
|
[244] Ms H.
Robins-Talbot: Thank you very much for your support.
|
[245] Mr
Collins-Hayes: Thank you.
|
[246]
Mike Hedges: Thank you.
|