Dragon Logo - National Assembly for Wales | Logo Ddraig y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

09/02/2017

 

 

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

 

 

 

 

Cynnwys
Contents

 

.........

4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

5....... Craffu ar Waith Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales

 

27..... Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 6
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 6

 

42..... Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

42...... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

 

 

 

 

                                                                

 

 

 

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

 

 

 

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

 

Hannah Blythyn
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Dawn Bowden
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Suzy Davies
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Neil Hamilton
Bywgraffiad|Biography

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Bethan Jenkins
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

Dai Lloyd
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Jeremy Miles
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Lee Waters
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

 

Nick Capaldi

 

Prif Weithredwr, Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Chief Executive, Arts Council of Wales

Deborah Keyser

 

Cyfarwyddwr, Tŷ Cerdd
Director, Tŷ Cerdd

Sian Tomos

 

Cyfarwyddwr Menter ac Adfywio, Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Director for Enterprise and Regeneration, Arts Council of Wales

 

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

 

Steve George 

Clerc
Clerk

Siân Hughes

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

Adam Vaughan 

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Robin Wilkinson

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

 

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:03.
The meeting began at 09:03.

 

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1]          Bethan Jenkins: Diolch a chroeso i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Yr eitem gyntaf yw’r cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel.

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. The first item is the introduction, apologies and substitutions. If there is a fire alarm, please leave the room via the exits and follow the directions of the ushers. We are not expecting a test today. Please turn your mobile phones on to silent.

 

[2]          Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0.

 

The National Assembly operates bilingually, and there are headphones available to hear the simultaneous translation and also for amplification. The interpretation is on channel 1 and the amplification is on channel 0.

 

[3]          Peidiwch â chyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau, gan y gall hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad.

Please don’t touch the buttons on the microphones because this can interfere with the broadcasting system, and please make sure the red light is on before you begin to speak.

 

[4]          A oes unrhyw ddatganiad o fuddiannau gan Aelodau? Na. Nid oes unrhyw ymddiheuriadau ar hyn o bryd chwaith.

 

Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No. There are no apologies at this time either.

09:04

 

 

Craffu ar Waith Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru
Scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales

 

[5]          Bethan Jenkins: Yn eitem 2, rydym yn craffu ar waith Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Mae yna gwestiynau penodol ar hyn o bryd ar ddyfodol Celfyddydau & Busnes Cymru, a materion sy’n gysylltiedig â hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn i’r tystion, sef Nick Capaldi, prif weithredwr Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, a Sian Tomos, cyfarwyddwr menter ac adfywio Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, am ddod i mewn atom ni heddiw. Rydym yn gwerthfawrogi eich bod wedi dod i mewn, braidd ar fyr rybudd.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Item 2 is scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales. We have specific questions at the moment around the future of Arts & Business Cymru and other issues related to that. Thank you very much to the witnesses, Nick Capaldi, chief executive of the Arts Council of Wales, and Sian Tomos, director of enterprise and regeneration, Arts Council of Wales, for coming in today. We very much appreciate your presence, and I know it was at short notice, so thank you very much for that.

 

[6]          Mae’r cwestiwn cyntaf gen i. Rŷm ni wedi cael y papurau, yn amlwg, ond a fedrwch chi amlinellu yn fras y rhesymeg ynghylch pam yr ydych wedi cwtogi’r arian ar gyfer Celfyddydau & Busnes Cymru, yng nghyd-destun y ffaith eich bod chi wedi cael codiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn y flwyddyn ariannol yma? Rydw i’n deall yr hyn rydych yn ei ddweud ynglŷn â’r arian loteri, ond rydych wedi cael codiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Felly, y cyd-destun, os fedrwch chi roi hynny yn fras ar y record, diolch yn fawr.

 

The first question is from me. We have had the papers, of course, but could you perhaps give us a brief outline of the rationale behind cutting funding for Arts & Business Cymru, in the context of the fact that you have had an increase in your funding from Welsh Government during this financial year? I understand what you’re saying about the lottery funding, but you have had an increase in funding from Welsh Government. So, if you could put the broad context on the record for us, please, thank you very much.

 

[7]          Mr Capaldi: Thank you. I’ll try and unpick some of the issues relating to that. I think the first point that I would make, and I recognise that this can sound a little like angels dancing on pinheads, is that we haven’t withdrawn funding. There was funding committed by the Welsh Government—a two-year funding agreement—which came to a conclusion at the end of 2015-16. So, a funding arrangement was in place and that ended. Since then, what we’ve been talking to Arts & Business Cymru about has been the basis upon which future funds might be available. As I said in my note to the committee—I think it’s point 8—we wrote to Arts & Business back in December 2015, explaining that the Welsh Government’s previous funding arrangement had come to an end and that we were having to move to a different basis for funding Arts & Business. We hoped, into the future, that we would be in a position to fund their activities, but that it would be done on a procured basis, that we would be defining a series of specifications for business development support, we would be publishing tender documents and inviting organisations to bid for tenders to do that, and Arts & Business was very much one of the organisations that we would hope would do that.

 

[8]          I think we’re grateful for Arts & Business’s notes in terms of clarifying the position and in terms of their interpretation of our actions and our behaviour. I think I’m happy to go on record as apologising if we have misunderstood what they said. But in their request to you as Chair of the committee, for an urgent review of this, I think the e-mail did talk about a withdrawal of funding and did say that they were in imminent danger of closure, which presumably is why this committee wanted urgently for us to come along and see you, because by the end of this financial year it very much looked as though the organisation was going to have to close. It now transpires in terms of their subsequent notes to the committee that they’re actually talking about next year’s funding. Well, we did misunderstand the situation, I acknowledge that. If we’re talking about next year’s funding, we are exactly where we’ve always been in that we’ve published the specification, we’re going to be procuring services and we very much hope that Arts & Business will want to bid for those services. They do good work. There are many aspects of what they do that are hugely popular and welcomed by the arts and business sectors. So, I wouldn’t want to give the impression that in any way we want to debar Arts & Business from being part of our future business support.

 

[9]          Very briefly, I’ll just address the points that you made about the additional Welsh Government funding for next year. This is welcome and we are very grateful to the Welsh Government. I think, working with its members in Plaid Cymru who have advocated the importance of arts and culture across the board, that’s terrific news. What it does do, though, only begins to redress some of the funding cuts that we’ve seen over recent years. The 3.5 per cent funding increase has enabled us to reinstate a 3.5 per cent funding cut that we had to apply to our arts portfolio last year. So, we’re still trying to make up lost ground and, as you yourself noted, there are serious problems with the lottery.

 

[10]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Thank you for that. I just wanted to ask a question myself and that was: you’ve referenced the funding from the Welsh Government, from the two departments: from the arts division and from education and skills. So, you had a direct involvement, did you, then, with Welsh Government officials, in how that funding came about? Because from how I’ve read point 8, it didn’t come through you, that money. So, why—

 

[11]      Mr Capaldi: It did.

 

[12]      Bethan Jenkins: It did come through you.

 

[13]      Mr Capaldi: It was routed through us.

 

[14]      Bethan Jenkins: It was routed through you, so it would have been for Arts & Business Cymru to come to you to deal with any of the processes in relation to that particular financing also.

 

[15]      Mr Capaldi: Yes. I mean, during that time we did, obviously, in partnership with Arts & Business, meet with Welsh Government and its officials to brief them on what was happening. Also, when it looked as though, particularly, the Department for Education and Skills was going to have to withdraw funding, we worked very hard with Arts & Business to try and persuade the Government to think again, but it was clear that there were significant funding pressures on them, and that they had to reassess their funding priorities.

 

[16]      Bethan Jenkins: It seems to me as well, from the remit letter that you got from the Welsh Government, that they’re asking you to, potentially, do some of the work in relation to working with businesses and, potentially—correct me if I’m wrong—perhaps mirroring some of the work that Arts & Business Cymru does. Can you tell us how, potentially, you are doing that, and whether that may conflict with what they are doing at all? Or is it totally separate to what Arts & Business Cymru would be doing?

 

[17]      Mr Capaldi: It’s certainly not totally separate, because Arts & Business do some important work in terms of the development of business capability. What the Welsh Government has asked us to do is to encourage the organisations that we fund do be more financially resilient, to be less dependent on public subsidy, and to build their business capacity. There’s a very wide range of ways in which that can be done, and whilst I think that we as an organisation have some very specific skills and expertise, we don’t have the highest quality skills and expertise in this area of relating to business. That’s why we specify what we think is needed, and we tender and we procure for other bodies, so that we don’t, ourselves, compete in that market. What we’re doing is we’re procuring from expert providers.

 

[18]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thank you. I think Lee Waters has some questions.

 

[19]      Lee Waters: Thank you, and thanks very much for coming in at short notice. I appreciate the point you’re making about the general funding pressure that you’re under, and I think what we’re trying to understand is the way that Arts & Business has tried to recalibrate itself, and the implications that has for other bodies within the sector too. So, just going through the different evidence that has been submitted, it’s fair to say there isn’t a meeting of minds, but for Arts & Business, it seems to me their primary case is that for an investment of £70,000, they have been able to lever in £1.4 million of private sector investment. Do you recognise those figures? Are they correct, in your view?

 

[20]      Mr Capaldi: Oh, I’m sure they are. I mean, I think if Arts & Business have submitted that evidence, it will be true, and certainly, I’ve been to enough Arts & Business events to know that they are very vigorous in business, so I don’t doubt that. I think, in a different age and a different environment, perhaps we could simply give Arts & Business £70,000 to do this. I have to say that, from the Wales Audit Office to the Welsh Government, there has been lots of research done into what is the best way of supporting professional services, which is what we’re talking about here, and the very firm view is that one gets best value for public funding if you procure those services on an open and competitive basis. Again, I repeat: there’s absolutely no reason why Arts & Business shouldn’t be part of that. We’ve already had a round of procurement for other services, and Arts & Business have successfully been taken on board for another contract. You’re right; there doesn’t appear to be a meeting of minds, and I’m saddened, actually, that we seem to have reached that point.

 

[21]      Lee Waters: The kernel of it is that you feel you’re going with the grain of what’s being asked of you, in moving to a procurement model, and they are wedded to an old model of core funding—that’s the case we’re making.

 

09:15

 

[22]      Mr Capaldi: That appears to be the case, you know. Again, I refer back to the letter that we sent to Arts & Business back in 2015, where I think we were as clear as we possibly could be that things were changing and that in the future it would be on a procurement basis. I can entirely understand why they would wish simply to be allocated a sum of money and no doubt that they would use that well, but we do have to go through the proper processes of procurement, we do need to be able to reassure the Welsh taxpayer that we are getting the best value for the public pound.

 

[23]      Lee Waters: Isn’t there a danger, though, that you obsess with process and in doing that you lose the outcomes? Because the evidence that they’ve submitted to us, in terms of the added value they provide, both to creating a professional infrastructure that has all sorts of other benefits in terms of the ecosystem that we all want to see created in terms of a vibrant artistic sector and the skills they bring to bear in terms relating to the private sector, which you said earlier your organisation doesn’t have, and other organisations have been encouraged to have, is that there’s a risk of killing something that  is valuable to the overall ecosystem just so that you can comply with best practice and procurement.

 

[24]      Mr Capaldi: There’s a real risk of that and we work hard to try and avoid that, which is why we’ve been clear in our advice to Arts & Business, have met with them to explain what it is we’re trying to do, and I can’t speculate, obviously, about the outcome of a procurement process yet to conclude, but given the track record and the achievements that Arts & Business is able to marshal, I would say they’re in a very strong position to make a very persuasive case for support.

 

[25]      Lee Waters: But their fundamental argument is that they have done what’s been asked of them, they’ve tried developing their business model but when it comes down to it, they need a core bit of funding as a charity to keep that infrastructure in place in order to do those other things, and by sticking to your new model of working you risk destroying that model.

 

[26]      Mr Capaldi: No, I think that in any procurement of services that in any way that an organisation bids for support, it will want to ensure that the contract it’s putting forward includes within it the necessary element to support its core costs. So, we would be entirely expecting to see, as part of a bid, an element within that that would be necessary for the establishment costs of the organisation.

 

[27]      Lee Waters: Have you considered whether moving to such a model would be beneficial for the Arts Council of Wales?

 

[28]      Mr Capaldi: I think that it’s difficult to imagine how the Welsh Government would procure the services of an arts council. I mean, I suppose it’s entirely possible, but we are a royal charter body, we are a designated lottery distributor—

 

[29]      Lee Waters: You need core funding to survive.

 

[30]      Mr Capaldi: —and those two things make us unique. We do depend on core funding—

 

[31]      Lee Waters: So, what’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander in this case.

 

[32]      Mr Capaldi: Well, what I would say is that we work very hard to make sure that the majority of our funding is given directly to the arts. Our running costs are 7.3 per cent of overall total expenditure, which is very low in terms of charitable organisations.

 

[33]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Neil Hamilton.

 

[34]      Neil Hamilton: Yes. To follow that up, Arts & Business’s running costs as a proportion of their total expenditure is even smaller than 7.3 per cent. So, if the model isn’t broken, why try to mend it?

 

[35]      Mr Capaldi: I’m not sure that we are trying to mend it. Again, I come back to the fact that we must procure services. We have set out the process for procuring those services and we have invited Arts & Business to be part of that. We are having to look at the balance of public funding to the costs of an organisation. As Arts & Business say in their submission, there are two slightly different figures; in one note they say that 27 per cent of their overall income is public subsidy and in another area it’s 17 per cent.

 

[36]      Neil Hamilton: Yes, I’d noticed that.

 

[37]      Mr Capaldi: Whichever one of those—27 per cent or 17 per cent. You know, we are all having to reduce our running costs.

 

[38]      Neil Hamilton: Yes, but they’ve reduced theirs in a very short time frame, from 83 per cent to either 27 per cent or 17 per cent, whichever is the correct figure and—

 

[39]      Mr Capaldi: Yes, I think what they’re talking about there is the balance. Eighty-three per cent is what they’re saying they deliver through earned income and commercial. If I understand it correctly, 17 per cent is what they are receiving in terms of public subsidy. I mean, that is impressive. If you look, for example, at last year’s statutory accounts, then the amount of money identified in their accounts as, as I think it’s described, national arts Government grants, which I presume is synonymous with public subsidy, is 49 per cent. So, clearly, they’ve made very significant progress in the current year.

 

[40]      Neil Hamilton: Nobody could be more sympathetic than I am to the general principle of what you’ve put forward this morning. I’ve done this as a Minister in the UK Government myself, so I probably understand the process and its justification, but it does seem to me, in this case, that the sums of money are so small that the process you’re now going through is disproportionate to the potential gain, even on the most optimistic basis. Given that the charity does have a need, which you’ve acknowledged, for some core funding—because people, generally speaking, give money to good causes to be spent on good causes, not on the people who are raising the money, essential though that is to the process—it’s not the sexiest of appeals. Given that we’re only talking about £70,000 here, is it really necessary to go out to tender on something of that scale, given the—? You’ve acknowledged that you think it’s a reasonable projection that they will raise £1 million-plus from their activities. That seems, to me, to be a very good return on investment. Given that that has been acknowledged as working at the moment, why change that? I’m somewhat in the dark, really, as to who else is going to come forward to be part of this tendering process. So, perhaps you could help us on both of those points.

 

[41]      Mr Capaldi: On the first point, the £70,000 is a lot—a large sum of money. It would be to some people, and some—

 

[42]      Neil Hamilton: It is to me, but then I’m not bidding for this. [Laughter.]

 

[43]      Mr Capaldi: So, I think that it’s right that we do have processes that are fair, that are equitable, that apply to all, and that have the interests of the taxpayer at their heart. Again, I repeat—

 

[44]      Neil Hamilton: I’m sure that’s correct, but it doesn’t answer my question.

 

[45]      Mr Capaldi: There is nothing disbarring Arts & Business from applying—

 

[46]      Neil Hamilton: No, but I’m asking why they should have to be applicants—why there should be a process. It seems to me, to follow up the point that Lee made, that you’ve decided that regardless of the size of the nut, we must have a sledgehammer, and you’ve gone out and bought a sledgehammer and now you have to apply it to everything under your command.

 

[47]      Mr Capaldi: Yes, under the framework that we operate, which is a legally binding document, which I, as accounting officer, am responsible for, for figures under £25,000 we could proceed on what’s called the basis of a single tender.

 

[48]      Neil Hamilton: I see. So, you’ve got a de minimis—

 

[49]      Mr Capaldi: So, I could go straight to Arts & Business and say, ‘Can you provide these services for £25,000?’ Above that, then we start to get into rules where public procurement requirements apply, and that’s simply how it is.

 

[50]      Bethan Jenkins: Can I just ask quickly for clarification? Have you been guided or directed by Welsh Government to change this into a procurement process, as opposed to a core funding process, just so we understand, as a committee, the rationale behind why you’re doing this?

 

[51]      Mr Capaldi: No, we’ve not been directed by the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government does not direct us over any individual funding decisions. It operates on the basis that funding decisions are a matter for what’s euphemistically called the arm’s-length principle.

 

[52]      Bethan Jenkins: So, what discussion did you have to come to this point where you changed how you were funding?

 

[53]      Mr Capaldi: Public procurement rules are what they are. So, they exist. We have a framework document with the Welsh Government, as all public bodies do, which defines how we should behave. It would be unprecedented—well, not unprecedented, but it would be very, very difficult for us to be, kind of, bending the rules, and saying, ‘For this area of service we’re not going to follow procurement rules’.

 

[54]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Dawn just has a small question on this.

 

[55]      Dawn Bowden: On that point, just so that I can be absolutely clear: so, what you’re saying is that it wasn’t that Welsh Government was telling you that you had to necessarily do this, but Welsh Government were saying that you had to move to a procurement model, and once you had to move to a procurement model, as opposed to an allocation of grant model or a core funding model, you were then compelled by National Audit Office rules to procure for anything over £25,000—applications over £25,000.

 

[56]      Mr Capaldi: The Welsh Government didn’t compel us to do this—

 

[57]      Dawn Bowden: No, sorry, they didn’t compel you to do what you’re doing, but they asked you to move to a procurement model, as opposed to—

 

[58]      Mr Capaldi: No, they didn’t ask us to move to a procurement model.

 

[59]      Dawn Bowden: That’s what I thought I read in the—

 

[60]      Mr Capaldi: Sorry, what they said was that the funding arrangements that the Welsh Government had previously had with Arts & Business ended at the end of 2015-16. The remit letter does refer to, and I think I quote in my submission about the need to procure certain—

 

[61]      Dawn Bowden: Yes, but that was your decision, then, to move to that model, basically.

 

[62]      Mr Capaldi: Yes, it’s our decision, but it’s a decision taken on the basis of following the guidance that applies to public service funding.

 

[63]      Neil Hamilton: So, did the £25,000 figure come from you or was that a figure that you have to accept as an external constraint?

 

[64]      Mr Capaldi: There are specific guidelines in terms of—

 

[65]      Dawn Bowden: Sorry, Chair, I was just trying to understand why we’ve moved from the arrangement that applied previously to the arrangement that we’re in now. I must have misread what your submission was saying, because I thought you were saying that it was because the Government was saying that you had to now approach this in a different way, but that’s not the case—you’ve decided to do this.

 

[66]      Mr Capaldi: No, no—it is our compliance with public funding requirements.

 

[67]      Dawn Bowden: But it wasn’t what you did previously.

 

[68]      Mr Capaldi: No, what we did was we received money from the Welsh Government, and we passed that on—

 

[69]      Dawn Bowden: And you just allocated it.

 

[70]      Mr Capaldi: And we did allocate it. There was a funding agreement, don’t get me wrong. I mean, Arts & Business had to provide a range of services, but that was funding made available from the Welsh Government for us to pass on to Arts & Business—different environment, though.

 

[71]      Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. Jeremy Miles.

 

[72]      Jeremy Miles: Just two questions: have you made an assessment of the cost in time and management time and staff costs to you of operating this new system?

 

[73]      Mr Capaldi: No. We don’t think it’s a huge additional burden in terms of cost, because whether we are assessing grant applications or whether we’re going through a procurement process, in some ways a procurement process is more straightforward because there are very specific, if you like, rules and regulations, which rely less on subjective judgment.

 

[74]      Jeremy Miles: Okay, so the process is not causing a big increase to your bottom line anyway.

 

[75]      Mr Capaldi: No. In fact, our bottom line is decreasing. We are reducing the costs of our organisation. We’re currently going through a cost-cutting process of restructuring at the moment, which, at the conclusion of that process, will have seen our staff numbers reduced by 25 per cent.

 

[76]      Jeremy Miles: And what will that mean in terms of numbers in the budget?

 

[77]      Mr Capaldi: What that will mean is that we hope and expect to be able to remain around the 7 to 8 per cent mark in terms of our running costs as a proportion of overall expenditure.

 

[78]      Jeremy Miles: So, that’s the running rate—7 per cent, roughly—of what you would describe essentially as your core costs.

 

[79]      Mr Capaldi: As total expenditure, yes.

 

[80]      Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, you mentioned in your response to Lee that Arts & Business could include in the procurement process an element that covers their core cost. Did I hear you correctly?

 

[81]      Mr Capaldi: Yes. I mean, I don’t think they would be able to deliver the service unless the costs of providing that service were factored into that—

 

[82]      Jeremy Miles: I’m sure that’s true. What sort of assumptions would you make about what level of provision within that process would be appropriate for their core costs, in comparison with the £70,000 figure, or whatever is the actual figure for—?

 

[83]      Mr Capaldi: I don’t think that we’ve made any assumption about what that figure would be. It is one of the advantages of a procurement model that you can compare. You can look at what a range of organisations are saying, and clearly the cost of providing the service becomes one of the criteria on which one assesses the procurement process.

 

9:30

 

[84]      Jeremy Miles: You’re not simply going to be applying a cheapest-cost base to the test of which procurement bid succeeds, you’re going to have other criteria. So, my question is: what’s your tolerance for core costs within that bid?

 

[85]      Mr Capaldi: We don’t have a stated tolerance, but what we do have is we have criteria, and there is more of a weighting on the quality of the proposals and the outcomes than there is on cost. Cost is an important function, but we can award a tender to a more expensive bid if we believe that the quality and the outcomes justify that.

 

[86]      Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.

 

[87]      Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Roeddwn i eisiau ehangu’r drafodaeth ychydig bach i edrych ar graffu ar waith Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn fwy cyffredinol, ac i ofyn i chi amlinellu pa weithgareddau datblygu busnes a chodi arian a chynhyrchu incwm mae cyngor y celfyddydau ei hun yn eu gwneud.

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to expand the discussion a little bit to scrutinise the work of the Arts Council of Wales in general, and to ask you to outline what business development and fundraising activities the Arts Council of Wales itself undertakes.

[88]      Mr Capaldi: As I said earlier on, we do little directly ourselves because we prefer to play to the strengths of those organisations that are expert in this area. There are sources of funding that we can access, so traditionally what we’ve tended to do is to look for opportunities either through European funding or through partnerships with other organisations to increase the money available to the arts in Wales. In some ways, that’s very similar to the sort of role that Arts & Business plays with the private sector, except in our case we would be working with partners like the National Trust, with the Canals and Rivers Trust, with the Football Association of Wales, with the Baring Foundation, who have supported projects that we’re doing with older people—a very long list of other partners who are providing additional funding that goes into the arts.

 

[89]      Dai Lloyd: Ymhellach i hynny—diolch am yr ateb yna—a ŷch chi’n gallu rhoi unrhyw syniad i ni o faint o arian yr ydym ni’n delio â fe fan hyn? Faint o arian ychwanegol neu fudd ychwanegol ydych chi’n cynhyrchu o’r gweithgareddau yma fel cyngor y celfyddydau?

 

Dai Lloyd: Further to that—thank you for that response—can you give us any idea of how much funding we’re dealing with here? What additional funding or additional benefit are you generating from these activities as the Arts Council of Wales?

[90]      Mr Capaldi: I can’t off the top of my head, but, if the committee would find it useful, I’d be very happy to provide you with a note on that.

 

[91]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Lee Waters eto.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. Lee Waters again.

[92]      Lee Waters: Yes, I’m interested in the implications of this approach. So, do you work on this basis with all the organisations you fund, so every organisation you fund is done on a procurement basis?

 

[93]      Mr Capaldi: No. We differentiate between those activities that are creating art—commissioning, producing works of art—and those activities that are directed at the public, so, opportunities for people to see, to participate and take part in the arts. So, that would be everything from the activities of, say, the Wales Millennium Centre to our network of theatres, art centres and galleries across the country, where what they are doing is they are commissioning, making, presenting work, and they are engaging the public directly in arts activity.

 

[94]      There is a separate and smaller category of activity where we are commissioning services for the benefit of the arts that are not about directly providing arts activities, and Arts & Business and their activities fall into that category.

 

[95]      Lee Waters: That seems to me a rather arbitrary distinction, and you have discretion in where this line sits, do you not?

 

[96]      Mr Capaldi: It’s a very well-established principle that we give grants to organisations that are promoting, commissioning, making work or engaging with the public. Where it is a service—. If we were to take, for example—yes, we could procure, I suppose, for a nationally significant opera provision across Wales based at the Wales Millennium Centre, but I think we’d only have one applicant for that, so—

 

[97]      Lee Waters: I’m just interested in where the line sits, because you’re saying it’s about directly commissioning art, whereas, of course, the work that Arts & Business does is—it’s a facilitation role, for sure, but the work they do, for example, their CultureStep programme, which they’ve told us about, working with socially disadvantaged groups and business, that creates art.

 

[98]      Mr Capaldi: Yes, but I don’t think they are the direct providers of that activity. What they are doing is they are providing funding, which they have raised from other charities—

 

[99]      Lee Waters: My point is: there is discretion here. You said earlier that you must procure; you’ve now said it’s not a question of ‘must’, or it’s a question of how you do it. And there is discretion that you surely have in when and where this applies, and you also said that you prefer to play to the strengths of organisations that are active in the field of engaging with the private sector, of which this is one. You’ve said several times you don’t have the skills in this area.

 

[100]   Mr Capaldi: Yes.

 

[101]   Lee Waters: And they’re telling us—and I take your point, no organisation has a right to exist, and we are not deaf to special pleading, we understand that people are fighting for their organisations in austere times, so we’re not naïve about that; however, it does seem in this case that they are providing a specialist skillset you don’t have. You and the Welsh Government want to encourage in this sector, and your response to it is a rather bureaucratic, if you don’t mind me saying so, obstinacy about what you regard as direct creation of art or not. It’s an arbitrary distinction that you have the discretion to apply differently, and there’s a real danger, is there not, of you being stubborn about this and a skillset that doesn’t exist easily elsewhere disappearing.

 

[102]   Mr Capaldi: We certainly don’t want to be stubborn or bureaucratic about anything. I would maintain that there is a material difference in type of activity between organisations that are directly engaging in the creation and production of art and those—

 

[103]   Lee Waters: Potato, potahto.

 

[104]   Mr Capaldi: —who are providing services. So, to that degree, is it a matter of discretion? Perhaps. We don’t agree. We feel that there are, for very good reasons, public procurement processes that are in place that we should comply with. I think it’s also important—

 

[105]   Lee Waters: When it suits you.

 

[106]   Mr Capaldi: Well, it’s not about suiting us. I mean—

 

[107]   Lee Waters: Well, you don’t have to—. You have the discretion of when to decide those procurement processes apply.

 

[108]   Mr Capaldi: Yes, but what I would argue is that—

 

[109]   Lee Waters: You said earlier that you must do it and you—

 

[110]   Mr Capaldi: —public procurement rules don’t exist to make our life easier—

 

[111]   Lee Waters: But you have discretion over when to apply them.

 

[112]   Mr Capaldi: —they are there to provide security and assurance for taxpayers.

 

[113]   Lee Waters: But you have discretion over when to apply them, and you told us earlier that you must apply them in this case, and you’ve not persuaded me that you must apply them in this case.

 

[114]   Mr Capaldi: I’m sorry. I mean, that’s—. If, again, the committee would like, I can provide you with a note on the guidance that applies in the areas around the provision of services.

 

[115]   Lee Waters: Indeed, and you’ve talked us through that, and, from what I’ve heard, there is a judgment to be made about the appropriateness of applying these guidelines in what is or is not the original production of art.

 

[116]   Mr Capaldi: I understand the point you’re making. Yes, of course, and we have made a judgment based on the requirements—

 

[117]   Lee Waters: So, there is discretion.

 

[118]   Mr Capaldi: We could ignore the rules, yes.

 

[119]   Lee Waters: Well, you can choose to interpret them differently.

 

[120]   Mr Capaldi: I think we are scrutinised very carefully by the Wales Audit Office, and they look at the basis upon which we make decisions and they expect us to follow the guidelines.

 

[121]   Lee Waters: All right. So, you’re doing this to avoid criticism from the Wales Audit Office, with a real, great danger that the baby goes out with the bathwater.

 

[122]   Mr Capaldi: No, we are doing this, as I’ve said consistently, to secure best value for the Welsh taxpayer, using the processes that have been established.

 

[123]   Lee Waters: Well, the danger is £1.4 million of private sector investment is lost to the artistic economy of Wales for the sake of a £70,000 public subsidy.

 

[124]   Mr Capaldi: Well, all I would say—

 

[125]   Lee Waters: Because the Wales Audit Office are interested in risk management, aren’t they? And you do have to balance it against that risk.

 

[126]   Mr Capaldi: There are a very wide range of organisations that will provide different types of business service. There is not a comparable organisation to Arts & Business, but there are a wide range of needs now. If one looks at the arts sector, it is changing and has changed dramatically. There are a large number of microbusinesses, a large number of small partnerships of individuals who are working on the margins between the cultural and the creative industries. These will be organisations that are working at the forefront of exploiting digital technology. These are new business skills and new areas of activity, which, traditionally, have not been part of Arts & Business’s core offer, for which we need to go out and test the market, because those are the skills that are needed. If Arts & Business comes through and can demonstrate that it’s able to meet that need, we will happily fund that activity.

 

[127]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.

 

[128]   Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy Miles.

 

[129]   Jeremy Miles: I’m interested in a different kind of boundary from the boundary as to what’s procured and what isn’t procured within your portfolio of support. Arts & Business Cymru provides a commercial service in the sense that it accesses private money to supplement the core public money that comes from the arts council. You’ve described a scenario where those skills don’t exist within the Arts Council of Wales. So, you have an organisation sitting outside the arts council where, essentially, the point of the collective endeavour is to raise money for the arts in Wales, effectively. So, is there a model in which you could set up a subsidiary organisation of some sort in which you had a controlling stake, where they would do the commercial activity for the arts council? We’re obviously discussing in other contexts how heritage organisations effectively raise money from private sources to supplement the public purse. Why aren’t you doing that?

 

[130]   Mr Capaldi: We’ve considered that and looked at it, but we believe that the additional cost involved in that in terms of the overheads that you’re concerned about wouldn’t justify such an approach, and, since there do exist organisations such as Arts & Business, we should make use of what exists.

 

[131]   Jeremy Miles: But those, again, are judgments, aren’t they, essentially? You know, you could decide that you have the ability to do this and have a different kind of relationship with Arts & Business Cymru than you have at the moment, because other organisations are being asked to consider how they joint venture, or whatever, to do exactly this.

 

[132]   Mr Capaldi: Oh, I see what you mean—

 

[133]   Jeremy Miles: So, it seems to me that you’ve gone to the far end of the spectrum here, haven’t you—there is a range of options for you along the route.

 

[134]   Mr Capaldi: —that we would join services with Arts & Business as some sort of joint vehicle.

 

[135]   Jeremy Miles: Well, the detail is to be discussed, I guess, or negotiated, but my point is you’ve gone from one model to the very furthest possible part of the spectrum from that. Essentially, what’s happening on the ground is the same set of activities, effectively; you’ve just chosen to interpret it in a particular way.

 

[136]   Mr Capaldi: We’ve certainly not had any discussions with Arts & Business about folding them into some sort of joint arrangement with us, no. I’m happy to say, ‘No, we’ve not’.

 

[137]   Jeremy Miles: Thank you.

 

[138]   Neil Hamilton: Can I just come back on one point?

 

[139]   Bethan Jenkins: Yes. Neil Hamilton.

 

[140]   Neil Hamilton: I’m still not absolutely clear about where this £25,000 de minimis figure comes from—whether that’s within your discretion to select or whether that’s imposed upon you by external procurement rules. 

 

[141]   Mr Capaldi: There are external procurement rules and I will provide—

 

[142]   Neil Hamilton: That’s where the £25,000 figure comes from? Right. Thank you.

 

[143]   Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies.

 

[144]   Suzy Davies: Apologies; you may have already answered this question, as I was late, but what I’m not 100 per cent clear about from what I’ve read is whether, when it comes to risk, your main worry is about what Arts & Business Cymru offers in terms of services or its own financial model. Which worries you more?

 

[145]   Mr Capaldi: I think we have had concerns about the financial model, and I want to choose my words carefully because I don’t want to imply negative connotations about what Arts & Business do and how they structure themselves. But we have been trying to encourage them through the businesses process that have been going on to look at how they might sustain themselves more, and, to be fair, they’ve been working away and doing that. Now, your question about future risk, yes, it’s there. I think, in one of their submissions, they talk about generating and bringing in, I think it’s £350,000 of additional income next year. I’m not doubting that that might well be possible and that, in the current year, they might well be en route to doing that, but in previous years the amount of money that they’ve generated through earned income above and beyond the public subsidy directly to the operation itself has been around £190,000. So, £190,000 to £350,000 is a big stretch, which I think must have an element of risk in it.

 

09:45

 

[146]   Suzy Davies: Okay. And if you’ve got, shall we say, mixed levels of confidence about what they would promise for the forthcoming year, can you tell us a little bit about how you would measure your confidence on some of these other organisations, which I haven’t named, but, of course, have not been tested in this particular field?

 

[147]   Mr Capaldi: Well, we would go through the procurement process. These processes are very clear. They define the outcomes that one is looking for. They specify that we require information about track record and about achievement, and it’s relatively straightforward through these procurement processes to be able to focus on the outcomes of what’s likely to be achieved.

 

[148]   Suzy Davies: Okay, well, you mentioned track record. All right, I know I haven’t been an AM very long, but the only group of people I know that have done this work have been ABC during my time, locally. How would you assess the track record of somebody who hasn’t actually done this before?

 

[149]   Mr Capaldi: As I was explaining earlier on, what we’re looking at is a very broad range of business services that we think are needed for the sector, of which Arts & Business fulfils a particular niche in terms of the services that it provides. But, we’re looking for a broader range of services, some of which, actually, Arts & Business might decide it’s in a good place to provide.

 

[150]   Suzy Davies: Okay, so, there’s a potential for more than one organisation meeting the needs you’ve identified.

 

[151]   Mr Capaldi: Potentially, yes.

 

[152]   Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you.

 

[153]   Bethan Jenkins: We have some time left. I just wanted to ask briefly—. Obviously, you commissioned the Cultivate report, and you said that you’re waiting to see the MetaValue work, which Arts & Business Cymru commissioned. Would you be minded—you haven’t seen it yet to know what it says—if there was something in there that was minded to be positive and constructive towards what they’re doing, to look at them in a different light, or is that just going to aid you in how you would view any potential new application to a new procurement process from them?

 

[154]   Mr Capaldi: I think that we already view Arts & Business in a positive light, and I think we are very familiar with their achievements and what they do. So, I would be surprised if the MetaValue report told us anything in that regard.

 

[155]   Bethan Jenkins: So why did you commission them—you gave them a one-off payment of £25,000 specifically for that—if you already knew what they were doing and how well they were doing it?

 

[156]   Mr Capaldi: Because it was about the future business model.

 

[157]   Bethan Jenkins: Sorry?

 

[158]   Mr Capaldi: It was about the future business model. It was about drawing on the strengths of the organisation, what it did well, and how it might respond to a different world where there was less public money around—how they might develop their range of services, how they might respond to the new and developing requirements that arts organisations and artists are identifying. We have verbal feedback on the MetaValue review, and, I think, as I’ve said in my note, it appears to have gone very well. We’re aware of some cost-cutting measures that Arts & Business have already taken as a result of the MetaValue report. That sounds to me good and encouraging.

 

[159]   We’ve not seen the report. I mean, we would be interested to see it. I think we will see it, I’m sure, because there is a proportion of the grant outstanding for payment, and our usual practice is that once a piece of work is complete and the report is produced, then we pay that outstanding money. So, I’m sure that Arts & Business will be sending it to us very soon.

 

[160]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Just as Dai mentioned earlier about expanding some of the questioning, I think it would be remiss of us not to ask, just with regard to our current inquiry on music in education, whether you could give us your opinion as to the current situation and your role in it, if anything, and how you could see a potential solution for the future, if you do have one, and whether there’s a role for you as an arts council.

 

[161]   Mr Capaldi: I hope there will be a role for us in the future. We were part of the task group that commissioned the report and we have been following the proceedings of this committee with great interest because it’s a hugely difficult and hugely important area of work. We have a range of different ways that we engage with arts in education and, with your permission, I wanted to offer, if the committee would find it useful, for us to come along and give you evidence specifically on these matters as part of your inquiry, because we’ve heard, during the course of various discussions, conversations and evidence about organisations like National Youth Arts Wales and we’ve heard about the music services and what’s been happening there. These are all things that we’re involved with.

 

[162]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thank you.

 

[163]   Mr Capaldi: The task and finish group came up with a series of recommendations and they are going to be challenging because we’re not talking about more money coming into the system at local authority level to support these really important activities. I suppose what we’re looking at is the next best option, which is that local authorities, where they can, come together on either a regional or a sub-regional basis to provide expert services. I think that, unless new money can be brought into the system, that’s what we’re going to have to do. I was the product of a schools music service. That’s how I got into the arts. I feel very strongly about that and there are large numbers of young people who are being denied the opportunities that I had.

 

[164]   Bethan Jenkins: A oes gan Aelodau gwestiynau? Lee.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Any more questions from Members? Lee.

[165]   Lee Waters: Just briefly, the irony of that last statement—. The challenge facing funding the ensembles in particular is to lever in private sector investment. It’s a huge challenge for the sector. What we’ve just been discussing this morning is the paucity of the skillset that exists to do that and the challenge of it. So, what lessons do you think can be drawn, for the people who are now trying to set about drawing in private sector money, from the experience of Arts & Business?

 

[166]   Mr Capaldi: I think that the skills do exist and they do exist across the sector as a whole. If you look at some of our most successful national companies such as Wales Millennium Centre, Welsh National Opera, National Theatre Wales or Theatr Genedlaethol Cymru, these organisations are fundraising millions of pounds of private sector and trust support each year—

 

[167]   Lee Waters: And they have a devil of a job doing it and they have large, experienced teams to do it.

 

[168]   Mr Capaldi: Indeed. But what I think—

 

[169]   Lee Waters: We’re comparing apples with pears here.

 

[170]   Mr Capaldi: What we are starting to see, though, are instances where large organisations are mentoring and supporting smaller organisations as part of partnerships. I think that in terms of looking at the future of music services, which you specifically asked about, I hope that if new partnerships and new organisations do emerge, they will take advantage of that kind of expertise that is available to them from existing organisations, whether Arts & Business or anybody else.

 

[171]   Lee Waters: If it still exists.

 

[172]   Mr Capaldi: I’m pretty confident it will exist.

 

[173]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.

 

[174]   Bethan Jenkins: And just to follow on from that, therefore, do those organisations have the same style of procurement processes as Arts & Business Cymru, for example, or the WNO? Or would you give them core funding based on the fact that you know that they are the best at what they do and that that wouldn’t be required?

 

[175]   Mr Capaldi: This was the point that I was exploring with Mr Waters—that we differentiate between those organisations that we grant fund, of which Welsh National Opera and Wales Millennium Centre are two. We fund 67 organisations—which are described as our arts portfolio of Wales, across Wales—that are providing arts activities.

 

[176]   Bethan Jenkins: That’s where you were saying about the clear difference, then.

 

[177]   Mr Capaldi: This is the distinction that we’ve been debating.

 

[178]   Bethan Jenkins: Right. And you’ve got that in a sort of format then to make that distinction.

 

[179]   Mr Capaldi: Yes, it’s very clear whether an organisation is commissioning and creating work and providing and those services direct to the public. We monitor that work very carefully.

 

[180]   Bethan Jenkins: A oes unrhyw gwestiynau eraill gan Aelodau? Rŷm ni wedi clywed eich barn ynglŷn â dod i mewn ar gyfer yr ymchwiliad arall, a byddwn yn cymryd hynny i ystyriaeth. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod i mewn heddiw i roi tystiolaeth. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd cysylltiad gennym ni ar hyn. Os ydych yn gallu anfon y nodyn ar procurement atom, byddai hynny’n ein helpu i ddeall yn fwy sut rydych yn cydlynu’r gwaith yn hynny o beth. Diolch yn fawr am ddod i mewn heddiw.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Are there any other questions from Members? We have heard your comments about coming in for the other inquiry, and we will consider that. Thank you very much for coming in today to give evidence. I’m sure we will be in touch with you on that. If you could send the note on procurement to us, that would be a great help for us to understand better how you co-ordinate the work in that regard. Thank you very much for coming in today.

[181]   Eitem tri—. Rydym yn mynd i gael brêc am bum munud a wedyn dod nôl am 10 o’r gloch.

Item three—. We are just going to have a short break for five minutes, and then we will come back at 10 o’clock.

 

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:55 a 10:06.

The meeting was adjourned between 09:55 and 10:06.

 

Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 6
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 6

 

[182]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 3, sef ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a gwella mynediad ati, sesiwn dystiolaeth ragarweiniol rhif 6. Diolch yn fawr iawn i Deborah Keyser, cyfarwyddwr Tŷ Cerdd, am ddod i mewn heddiw. Rydym ni’n gwerthfawrogi’r hyn yr ydych chi’n ei wneud yn y maes yma. A oes modd i chi roi golwg gyffredinol i ni o’r hyn rydych chi’n ei wneud yn Nhŷ Cerdd? Gwnes i sylwi bod adroddiad y grŵp gorchwyl ar wasanaethau cerddoriaeth yn nodi fod y trefniant lle bo CBAC yn rheoli un maes a’ch bod chi wedyn yn rheoli maes arall yn anarferol. A allwch chi ehangu ar hynny a dweud wrthym ni sut rydych chi’n meddwl ei fod yn gweithio a sut rydych chi’n gweithio gyda’r bwrdd interim sy’n mynd i gymryd at y gwaith ar hyn o bryd?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. We are moving on to item 3, which is funding for and access to music education, introductory evidence session number 6. Thank you very much to Deborah Keyser, director of Tŷ Cerdd, for coming today. We very much appreciate what you do in this area. Could you give us a general view of what you do in Tŷ Cerdd? I notice that the report from the task and finish group on music services noted that it is an unusual arrangement where the WJEC controls one area and you then control another area. Could you expand on that and tell us how you think it works and how you work with the interim board that’s going to be taking on the work at present?

 

[183]   Ms Keyser: Sure. First of all, I should tell you a little bit about Tŷ Cerdd and what the rationale is for us delivering the five National Youth Arts Wales ensembles. We exist to promote the music of Wales, especially the contemporary music of Wales. So, we support the development of composers and we have a membership of non-professional societies around Wales that will perform Welsh music and other music. We support that amateur music-making. We also have a recording studio and an extensive archive and library of music of the past and music that’s been commissioned. So, working with young people, supporting them to engage with Welsh music of now and the past, is bang in our remit and supporting audiences to connect with that music. Yes, we deliver the National Youth Choir of Wales, brass band, wind orchestra, training choir and training band. So, that’s five of the ensembles. Those historically come from Tŷ Cerdd having been born through the ages and, yes, we do operate very separately from the WJEC. The key member of staff that is involved with delivering those ensembles, Matthew Thistlewood, couldn’t be here today, unfortunately. He is paid by the WJEC and is on their payroll but he works from Tŷ Cerdd and works very much as part of our team and with our resources—human and physical resources. The operation is quite distinct from the operation in the WJEC and there’s very little working together, if you know what I mean. There are a couple of members of staff—Pauline is the manager over the whole team—but, in effect, Matthew works to us.

 

[184]   Bethan Jenkins: A beth sy’n digwydd nawr gyda’r weinyddiaeth interim o ran y celfyddydau ieuenctid? A ydych chi’n rhan o hynny a sut wedyn ydych chi’n mynd i gael mewnbwn i sut mae hynny’n mynd i ddatblygu a gweithio yn y dyfodol, er enghraifft o ran codi arian a sicrhau ei bod yn llwyddiannus ac yn y blaen?  

Bethan Jenkins: And what happens now with the interim administration in terms of youth arts? Are you a part of that and how then are you going to have an input into how that develops and works in future, for example in relation to fundraising and ensuring that it is successful and so on?

 

[185]   Ms Keyser: Okay. I only came into post in November, so I’m very new, but my predecessor, Gwyn L. Williams, was part of that as an observer on the interim board, and I have been since my arrival in November. We’ve been supporting the board to move forward and giving them evidence. This year, we’re going to be contracted, well, the WJEC is going to be contracted—you may know all of this already—to deliver the 2017 ensembles. We will be working in partnership with them, in effect, to deliver the ensembles. We’ve put the five programmes in place and recruited around 260 young people from across Wales to be part of those ensembles. It was a really difficult timeline because that work started in October and, obviously, even now, we haven’t had anything in writing to say, ‘Go ahead’, but we have an understanding and a good relationship with the new board of National Youth Arts Wales, and so we’ve moved forward—we’ve had to move forward—in a certain amount of confidence.

 

[186]   We’ve actually committed some funds to make the work happen this year because we had a great concern that if there was a lull or any sort of hiatus, the young people would drop out, lose confidence or find other things to do. We did take that decision in the autumn to advertise the ensembles and to recruit. So, all of the auditions have taken place and the young people are all in place, and that happened well before there was actually the commitment. We took that financial risk, if you like. So, that is all in place for 2017. We have a composer-in-residence, Rhian Samuel, who we fundraised for from the Colwinston Trust. One of the reasons that we’re so passionate about the ensembles is that connection with living composers. So, we nailed our colours to that mast for this year and made sure that that’s happening. She’s delivered the pieces; they’ve all been written, and so that’s all in place. The timeline is, as you can imagine—. It happens really early, and so, for this year, it had to be a fait accompli well before Christmas, really. So, we’re delivering 2017 and, from then on, we don’t know what’s going to happen. We’re working with the new board. We really want to continue delivering the ensembles. We’ve developed a really efficient model, and a model of excellence. I mean, excellence, security and efficiency are the key pillars of the way we deliver the work, but we don’t know whether we’ll be delivering this work after 2017.

 

[187]   Bethan Jenkins: Did you say at any point, just so I’m clear, that you could actually take on that work, or was it never within your capability to say, ‘Look, instead of creating this new organisation, we could carry on with doing what we’re doing, because we do it well’?

 

[188]   Ms Keyser: Oh, absolutely. Yes, that has been evidenced all the way through the process. There’s a document, which I can send on to you, which has been given to the interim board to show the efficiency of the operation. We run five of them. They’re really—I was about to use the word ‘cheap’, but they’re very cost-effective. We’ve had some great plaudits from Paul Mealor, for example—a very prominent Welsh composer. He was the conductor on our choir course last year, and he said it was the best course he’s ever been on. We’ve got bagfuls of credits. It’s good work. I do understand absolutely that there needs to be a new set-up that is cohesive across the whole delivery.

 

[189]   Bethan Jenkins: So, you’re supportive of it actually existing, then.

 

[190]   Ms Keyser: I’m absolutely supportive of there being—

 

[191]   Bethan Jenkins: An overarching—

 

[192]   Ms Keyser: Yes. A more combined delivery model, but I think there are certain strengths that should be played into that new delivery model.

 

[193]   Bethan Jenkins: And you haven’t had any problems with people trying for auditions or not going for auditions because you’ve organised it quite early on in the process.

 

[194]   Ms Keyser: No, we haven’t had that issue. I guess that could have been a problem if we’d gone later. I think that is a problem waiting to happen with—this is probably another part of the conversation—the music services being in such straitened circumstances at the moment. The feed of young people coming through the music services to the national ensembles will be affected. I know the orchestra has had fewer applications than usual. At the moment it’s not a crisis—absolutely not—and we have been able to recruit good-quality ensembles.

 

[195]   Bethan Jenkins: And the standardisation of fees—is that affecting students in any way?

 

[196]   Ms Keyser: You mean with the music services.

 

[197]   Bethan Jenkins: No—

 

[198]   Ms Keyser: Oh, fees across our ensembles. Our ensembles are actually quite a lot cheaper than the National Youth Orchestra of Wales. They’re quite a lot shorter. They’re seven days; the national youth orchestra is two weeks. So, they are shorter. They’ve worked really well at that. But, I mean, the fees are £330 for a seven-day residency and we do give bursaries. So far this year, I think we’ve given about a £1,000 in bursaries.

 

10:15

 

[199]   Bethan Jenkins: So, people haven’t seen that as a barrier, then.

 

[200]   Ms Keyser: A barrier, no. But then of course, probably the barriers are further down the system.

 

[201]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, diolch yn fawr. Jeremy has questions.

 

[202]   Jeremy Miles: I was going to ask you about the future picture. I just want to get clear in my mind the current set of arrangements and just to develop some of the points you’ve already made. So, National Youth Arts Wales is essentially a joint venture between WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd—just put simply. For this summer season, if I may put it like that, National Youth Arts Wales has contracted WJEC, I think you said.

 

[203]   Ms Keyser: Yes. Well they’re about to; they haven’t done yet.

 

[204]   Jeremy Miles: Okay, but that’s the basic structure. And there will be a contract then, presumably, between WJEC and you to provide the ensembles that you provide for.

 

[205]   Ms Keyser: That’s right.

 

[206]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, what’s the sort of funding flow between yourselves and the new joint venture, if I may describe it like that? Previously, you would have been funding the ensembles to the tune of about £100,000. Is that roughly right?

 

[207]   Ms Keyser: Roughly, yes.

 

[208]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, this year, because of that contractual structure I’ve described, how does the money flow around that system?

 

[209]   Ms Keyser: In the same way as before, actually. Because the Arts Council of Wales has been historically giving the money to WJEC, and then we’ve been—. No, actually, there is a massive fly in the ointment for us now, because the arts council has—this is currently a dispute with the arts council—misunderstood. They give us £80,000 a year, which they believe to be for the delivery of—.

 

[210]   Jeremy Miles: There’s quite a lot of that going on at the moment.

 

[211]   Ms Keyser: Sorry? Yes. They believe it to be for the delivery for the National Youth Arts Wales ensembles. That’s not—that’s our core; that’s what we’re working on, our core work. But, the way we deliver the National Youth Arts Wales ensembles is through around £60,000—early £60,000s—of income from the young people, and a sum of around about £17,000 from WJEC that tops that up.

 

[212]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, the money’s going in both directions in that model, effectively. You’re putting some income direct—

 

[213]   Ms Keyser: That’s right, and then getting the rest—

 

[214]   Jeremy Miles: And there’s some coming down the contract route.

 

[215]   Ms Keyser: That’s right, coming through, exactly. So, yes, in another part of the picture, we are desperately fighting to get that money back from the arts council, because that has really clipped our wings in terms of our delivery of our core work. But as to that relationship with WJEC this year—so, 2016-17—in the current financial year, that money’s already gone from the arts council but it’s been given to WJEC to give back to us. So, we are getting that £80,000 through WJEC at the moment, but we won’t, as of April, be getting that money.

 

[216]   Jeremy Miles: I haven’t quite followed, if I’m honest, why that would be. So, could you just take us through that again? What’s the April time—?

 

[217]   Ms Keyser: So, the April is the end of—

 

[218]   Jeremy Miles: The next financial year.

 

[219]   Ms Keyser: Exactly. The end of the relationship with National Youth Arts Wales, and the beginning of the new National Youth Arts Wales. So, they’re contracting WJEC to deliver 2017, but, in those sums, that £80,000 is history. It is £80,000 from the arts council, which is, in effect, gone. So, we’ve put £15,000 into the pot to say, ‘We want to make this happen.’ We were worried about the decision that was made in the autumn when we were worried about whether 2017 delivery would go ahead.

 

[220]   Jeremy Miles: And those are from your general funds, as Tŷ Cerdd.

 

[221]   Ms Keyser: Yes, exactly. So, from our reserve, we put £15,000 in, to say, ‘We want to make this happen’. So, now we need to have a conversation once that contract is made between WJEC and National Youth Arts Wales. We need to negotiate with WJEC to get the rest of the money that we need to make 2017 happen.

 

[222]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, just on the structure, before we move on to other questions—

 

[223]   Ms Keyser: Sure.

 

[224]   Jeremy Miles: So, you have a joint venture, effectively, which has two parties, both of whom are significant providers of services to that new organisation. There’s quite a lot of potential for conflict in there, isn’t there?

 

[225]   Ms Keyser: Between ourselves and WJEC?

 

[226]   Jeremy Miles: Between the new organisation and its general obligations and the partners within it who are both also contracting partners to deliver various services. Is there not a conflict inherent in that structure?

 

[227]   Ms Keyser: Yes, I would say there is.

 

[228]   Jeremy Miles: What thoughts have there been about how that is managed in practice?

 

[229]   Ms Keyser: Well, I would say—from what I can see at the moment—the delivery of 2017 is remaining quite distinct from National Youth Arts Wales. They’re not involved. They are looking forward. They are setting up their new organisation and trying to define what their new model of delivery will be, and I don’t think they know that yet. I met with Peter Bellingham yesterday. They’ve got a lot of work that they want to do to define that, but 2017, they have a rough idea of what we’re doing in terms of—

 

[230]   Jeremy Miles: So, it’s early days is the point at this stage.

 

[231]   Ms Keyser: It’s early days.

 

[232]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. In terms of part of the overall operations of Tŷ Cerdd, which are represented by the work that ultimately gets flowed, in some way, through National Youth Arts Wales, how will you describe what goes into National Youth Arts Wales and what’s left in Tŷ Cerdd? How will you describe the two separate categories of operation?

 

[233]   Ms Keyser: Yes, okay. So, outside of the work of National Youth Arts Wales—the arts council has encouraged us to look at the National Youth Arts Wales work as separate from our core, so, if I do that—we have a memorandum of agreement with various organisations, including the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. So, we’re supporting them to programme and perform Welsh music. We are supporting our network of member organisations and societies. We have a library; so, we support them by hiring a Welsh repertoire to them and other repertoire to them. We have recording studios, and we record music by Welsh composers and Welsh performers. We are a publishing house as well. So, some of that more niche, less populist Welsh music—the work that needs supporting—we will publish some of that work as well. So, our engagement with young people specifically, and our participatory work with young people has all been channelled through National Youth Arts Wales ensembles. So, that’s an area of work that we now need to develop, separate from—.

 

[234]   Jeremy Miles: But in terms of staffing, say, do you have half your workforce dedicated to what’s now coming into the new body and half into the retained—?

 

[235]   Ms Keyser: In terms of the ensembles, we just have one full-time equivalent working on that, and the rest of us work on the rest of the business.

 

[236]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. And do the changes affect your capacity to deliver any aspect of your remit?

 

[237]   Ms Keyser: Yes, only in that we have lost that money from the arts council. So, we’ve lost staffing capacity as a direct result of that.

 

[238]   Jeremy Miles: Right. Yes. Okay. What does that mean in practice in terms of capacity? How many posts is that?

 

[239]   Ms Keyser: Well, over the last year, two posts have gone. One has completely gone and one was being partially replaced. So, we’re quite down on staff. Because we’re a very small organisation.

 

[240]   Jeremy Miles: Yes, sure. Okay. You’ve obviously committed your own funds to this summer’s activities, and we heard from the WJEC that they are effectively—they didn’t use this word—sort of gifting, effectively, a whole package of services.

 

[241]   Ms Keyser: As are we. Yes.

 

[242]   Jeremy Miles: Right. That’s my question. So, what does that look like for you?

 

[243]   Ms Keyser: That looks like about £15,000-worth of back-office in kind.

 

[244]   Jeremy Miles: Is that just for this summer, or are you assuming that that will—?

 

[245]   Ms Keyser: No, that’s a sort of annual figure that we’ve calculated, but not ever invoiced to.

 

[246]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. So, it’s services in kind, effectively, which you would assess as being around that value.

 

[247]   Ms Keyser: Services in kind. Exactly. Yes.

 

[248]   Jeremy Miles: And you’re going to make those available on an ongoing basis.

 

[249]   Ms Keyser: Yes. Absolutely. Yes.

 

[250]   Jeremy Miles: Right. Okay. Thank you.

 

[251]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Mae gan Suzy Davies gwestiynau.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy has some questions.

 

[252]   Suzy Davies: Just on this point you mentioned, where you’ve been encouraged to deal with this work that we’re talking about today separately from your core work as Tŷ Cerdd, inevitably, some of that work is done by the same people, I would imagine. People working on this aren’t in a cupboard somewhere doing just this work. We’ve heard from witnesses last week that they are looking down the barrel of a huge funding gap after 2017, and the chances are that the model—. They don’t know what it will look like yet, but they will come up with something. It’s going to have to be constructed with that in mind. So, there is a risk to your organisation that you’ll be doing this work at all.

 

[253]   Ms Keyser: Oh, absolutely.

 

[254]   Suzy Davies: If that’s the case—and obviously, I hope that doesn’t happen—what is the risk to your organisation as a whole? Because I appreciate that this work is separate, but would you find yourself in the position that, in order just to be viable at all, you would have to go and look for some other project to service?

 

[255]   Ms Keyser: Well, we’ve created a budget that has extracted the National Youth Arts Wales work, so we have an in-built resilience, but that has been severely compromised by this loss of the—it’s almost a separate issue, because it’s a loss of money from the arts council, but it’s directly connected to the National Youth Arts Wales issue. So, no, we can continue, but we have very straitened resources—human resources—as a result. But, no, we absolutely have had to be realistic and, from last October, construct a budget that exists without engaging with National Youth Arts Wales.

 

[256]   Suzy Davies: And if you found yourself in that situation, and you’d have to contract out quite quickly as well, would that curtail your ambition to do other things in the future?

 

[257]   Ms Keyser: Oh, absolutely.

 

[258]   Suzy Davies: I suppose what I’m asking is: would it hamper you so much that you wouldn’t be able to exercise any ambition? You’d just have to plough the core furrow, if you like.

 

[259]   Ms Keyser: There absolutely is an element of that. I’m meeting—you’ve just had Nick Capaldi here; I should have grabbed him—I’m meeting with him next Thursday about this specific issue, because it’s something that is very much, for us, still live. We’ve had our remit letter, our letter from the arts council, with that £80,000 missing. It is, in a way, not National Youth Arts Wales’s problem, but, yes, it does leave our wings very clipped, and the amount of activity we’re able to generate is compromised by it.

 

[260]   Suzy Davies: Okay, so it would be that serious. Okay, thank you.

 

[261]   Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.

 

[262]   Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Wel, yn rhannol, mae’r pwyntiau yr oeddwn i’n mynd i’w gofyn wedi cael eu gofyn ac wedi cael eu hateb, ond yn nhermau cynlluniau at y dyfodol, o 2018 ymlaen, jest i fynd eto ar ôl yr un un trywydd ariannol a’r peryglon ariannol, neu beryglon y bwlch enfawr yma, achos, fel yr oedd Suzy yn cyfeirio ato, mae yna fwlch mawr ariannol yn mynd i ddigwydd o’i gymharu â’r presennol, yn ôl tystiolaeth CBAC wythnos diwethaf. So, sut yn eich tyb chi mae’r strwythur newydd yma—ac nid ydw i eisiau mynd mewn i’r cymhlethdod hwnnw eto—yn mynd i allu llenwi’r bwlch ariannol? Pa mor ffyddiog ydych chi eich bod chi’n gallu mynd a denu arian o ba bynnag ffynhonnell— preifat ai beidio—i lenwi’r gagendor ariannol yma ar ôl 2018?

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Well, partly, the question I wanted to ask has already been asked and answered, but in terms of plans for the future, from 2018 onwards, just to go back to the same financial aspect and the financial risks, or the risks of this huge funding gap, because, as Suzy said, there will be a big funding gap compared to what we’re looking at at the moment, according to what the WJEC have told us. So, how do you think this new structure—and I don’t want to look at the complexity of that again—will be able to fill that funding gap? How confident are you that you can attract funding from whichever sources—from private sources or otherwise—to fill that gap after 2018?

[263]   Ms Keyser: Well, obviously that’s an issue for the new organisation. They’ve got an enormous fundraising job to do, and they’ve got a really good fundraiser on board, but it’s not for me to say. I think they’d be very lucky to raise £300,000 a year, or whatever it is they need to raise, but they may do it. Certainly, if they continue some of the model that they’ve already got, they at least have efficiency there—well, they don’t just have efficiency, they also have excellence—but they may want to have a completely new model. If they want to have a completely new model, that might cost—maybe it will cost less. Really, you know, if they move ahead in 2018 without us, obviously they will be fundraising, presumably in a completely new arena. I can’t say that I would be confident to raise £300,000 a year for the national youth arts ensembles, but maybe they will.

 

[264]   Obviously, the local authorities are a key potential player, but we haven’t been part of that relationship with local authorities, and certainly for our ensembles, because of reasons of recruitment, particularly in rural areas, we haven’t been able to say that our members need to be going through the local county music services. So, therefore, we’ve had to have no formal relationship with the local authorities. So, actually, that local authority money hasn’t come into us anyway. It hasn’t touched us. So, we are sort of slightly separate from some of the rest of the operation, which is much more expensive by its nature. Of course, the theatre and dance work is more expensive to deliver, as is the orchestra, because it’s enormous. It’s a fantastic thing, and it’s big. In a way, the fundraising is slightly outside the territory that we’re operating in because our operation is so much cheaper.

 

[265]   Dai Lloyd: Ocê. Wel, diolch am yr ateb yna. Hefyd, jest er mwyn i ni gael rhyw fath o sicrwydd, i’r dyfodol, sut fydd Tŷ Cerdd yn gweithio, felly? Wrth gwrs, rydym ni i gyd yn meddwl am ddyfodol yr ensemblau yn gyffredinol. Sut fydd cyfraniad Tŷ Cerdd yn mynd ymlaen flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn nawr ar ôl 2018?

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you for that response. Also, just so that we can have some sort of idea on this, how will Tŷ Cerdd work in future? Because we are all thinking, of course, of the future of the ensembles in general. How will Tŷ Cerdd’s contribution carry on now year after year after 2018?

10:30

 

[266]   Ms Keyser: Do you mean, how will our contribution carry on to the National Youth Arts Wales ensembles?

 

[267]   Dai Lloyd: Yes.

 

[268]   Ms Keyser: Well, we’ve made it really clear that we want to support the work going forward, whatever that looks like. So, at the moment they’re basically our ensembles. They won’t be, and that is fine. We just want to make sure that the work is delivered, and that, very importantly, Welsh music is really present there for the young people, and that Welsh composers are working alongside and are being commissioned. So, I really hope that that’s the key way that we will be involved, because that’s the most important part of our involvement.

 

[269]   Bethan Jenkins: This is quite a specific question, but I know you said that you work with the BBC orchestra on the composers, on the Welsh composers, but you don’t seem to have a very strong relationship with the WJEC. So, do you work with the youth orchestra in commissioning them to play Welsh pieces?

 

[270]   Ms Keyser: Yes, there is. I probably over-egged the not-strong relationship; there’s a decent relationship, it’s just we don’t deliver together. But there are lots of additional collaborations that come through the calendar year through our ensembles. For example, the youth choir will collaborate with the youth orchestra on concerts at various points in the year, maybe sitting side by side with BBC National Orchestra of Wales and the BBC National Chorus of Wales. Absolutely, there are collaborative events and working on new music together, and certainly the orchestra is also great at programming Welsh music, and so that’s bang in our remit too. So, yes, there is a working relationship, it’s just that we don’t deliver together.

 

[271]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, I just wanted to clarify that. You mentioned earlier that the funding issue might be more—I don’t want to quote you, but I’ll paraphrase—severe on a local level. That’s why you don’t see that at the higher level—the pyramid-structure level. Could you just say what your feelings are on that? Because of course we’re looking for solutions, and a lot of people have said, ‘Look, we’ve had lots of reviews; what’s the solution?’ Do you have any—? Even though you don’t have direct intervention or communication with the local authorities, what would be your view as to how that could work effectively, so that when you see the young people, there are more coming through, and there are more coming through from non-traditional backgrounds, and so forth? How do you see that working?

 

[272]   Ms Keyser: I guess that one of the keys has to lie in some sort of consistency of delivery, and there is just a huge variety of levels of funding, and sorts of delivery. So, there will be—. In that document I was referring to, we’ve done some really nice maps that show where the young people are coming from. It means there will be gluts of young people from certain areas, and some of that is about the obvious stuff, the well-heeled areas, but actually also it’s about passions within local authorities or within schools. So, for example, from Caerphilly we’ve got a glut—‘glut’; that’s a really bad word—but a lot of young people in the choir, which is fantastic. It’s not a glut at all. We’ve noticed that we have, across all of the ensembles, one young person from Swansea. Now, that’s really surprising, and really quite shocking.

 

[273]   Bethan Jenkins: Dai, sort it out.

 

[274]   Ms Keyser: I hope I’ve got that right. I’m pretty sure I have. So, that consistency and continuity, and, yes, I’ve been watching a few bits of evidence from this committee, and obviously this argument about pyramid versus non-pyramid, and I guess in an ideal world, absolutely, access is everything. It’s so vitally important, and I’m not for one moment arguing against access, but I think it’s the access that provides that trajectory to the elite ensembles, and that’s the way it should be.

 

[275]         I live in Carmarthenshire, and Carmarthenshire is great, but it’s very difficult if you live in a rural part of a county like Carmarthenshire to access the county ensembles. So, actually, it’s much more difficult to take that route. So, more grass-roots work, work in schools. I’m new in post, so I don’t have a really nuanced picture of the local authority delivery, but I do know that it’s just completely patchy. Some of it’s really excellent and some of it’s just really underfunded. That is absolutely reflected in the young people who rock up to the elite ensembles.

 

[276]   Bethan Jenkins: Would you say there’s an argument for you and the WJEC, perhaps, to step up in relation to how that’s delivered locally? You deliver the top end, so to speak, but, if you don’t have that grass-roots development happening, you won’t have them coming through in the future. So, would you see a role for you to say, ‘Right, okay, we’ll try and intervene here also, as opposed to having that hands-off approach’?

 

[277]   Ms Keyser: Yes, there absolutely could be, and in fact, we do, slightly. We’re sort of in that bit down from the top of the pyramid as well, because the training choir and the training band are open access, they’re not by audition, and they’re absolutely developmental ensembles, and we do a lot of recruitment. In fact, the friends of the choir have just put a lottery bid in—that’s something else I should have told you about, actually—to our lottery strand. We administer for the arts council a lottery pot of money around music, around commissioning music, music in the community, and music for youth, and there’s some lottery money going into developing boy singers, because it’s very difficult to recruit boys to the choir, and also—

 

[278]   Bethan Jenkins: Despite Only Men Aloud. [Laughter.]

 

[279]   Ms Keyser: That’s fantastic, but it’s not SATB, of course, so it is different from that. So, recruiting boys to SATB singing. And also postcodes, chasing postcodes, really: going into the places where we really haven’t got any coverage yet. So, actually, yes, we get involved in that side, but, of course, it’s resource-dependent.

 

[280]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Diolch.

 

[281]   Suzy Davies: Sorry, can I ask what SATB is?

 

[282]   Ms Keyser: Oh, sorry.

 

[283]   Bethan Jenkins: Soprano, alto, tenor, bass.

 

[284]   Ms Keyser: So, there’s a lot of really good choir work going on, but SATB singing is that particular—

 

[285]   Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you.

 

[286]   Ms Keyser: Sorry.

 

[287]   Bethan Jenkins: Because they’re more attracted to the boys only-type, male voice choir tradition.

 

[288]   Ms Keyser: Yes, sure. Exactly. There are two different genres, basically. [Interruption.]

 

[289]   Bethan Jenkins: We’ve started a choir, now, in and of itself. [Laughter.] Do Members have any more questions, or do you want to sing a question?

 

[290]   Dai Lloyd: When’s the first choir practice?

 

[291]   Bethan Jenkins: I’ll e-mail you later. [Laughter.]

 

[292]   Thank you very much for your evidence. If you could send us the evidence that you have on where people are coming from—

 

[293]   Ms Keyser: Yes, I’d be delighted to.

 

[294]   Bethan Jenkins: —so that we understand exactly how that works, and any additional information that you have, as you’re new in post, if you find glimmers of inspiration along the way, would be helpful to us as well.

 

[295]   Ms Keyser: Great.

 

[296]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 

[297]   Ms Keyser: Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 

10:37

 

Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

[298]   Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 4, papurau i’w nodi: mae papur gan y Llywydd ataf i am y panel arbenigol ar ddiwygio trefniadau etholiadol y Cynulliad, papur gan gyfarwyddwr yr Ymddiriedolaeth Genedlaethol yng Nghymru i’r llythyr gan y Cadeirydd am Gymru Hanesyddol, papur 3, ymchwiliad i strategaeth y Gymraeg newydd Llywodraeth Cymru—gohebiaeth gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Torfaen, a phapur 4, llythyr ataf i gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol ar llais cryfach i Gymru. A ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi’r papurau hynny?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Item 4, papers to note: we have a letter from the Llywydd to myself about the expert panel on Assembly electoral reform, a paper from the director of the National Trust in Wales to a letter from the Chair on Historic Wales, paper 3, inquiry into the Welsh Government’s new Welsh language strategy—correspondence from Torfaen County Borough Council, and paper 4, a letter to myself from the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on a stronger voice for Wales. Is everyone happy to note those papers? 

10:38

 

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

 

Cynnig:

Motion:

 

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd ar gyfer eitem 6 yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from item 6 in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

 

 

[299]   Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 5, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ie? Diolch yn fawr.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Item 5, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting: are Members content? Thank you very much.

 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

 

 

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:38.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:38.