Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

24/5/2017

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

Cynnwys
Contents

.........

4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

5....... Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 1

39..... Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 2

......... News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 2

68..... Trwydded Weithredu Drafft ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus y BBC yn y DU: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth gyda Phwyllgor Cynghori Ofcom
Draft Operating Licence for the BBC’s UK Public Services: Evidence Session with the Ofcom Advisory Committee

93..... Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

95..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar gyfer Eitem 7
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting for Item 7

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Hannah Blythyn Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Dawn Bowden Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Suzy Davies Bywgraffiad|Biography	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Bethan Jenkins Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)
Dai Lloyd Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Jeremy Miles Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Dylan Iorwerth	Golygydd-gyfarwyddwr, Golwg Editorial Director, Golwg
Glyn Mathias	Cadeirydd, Pwyllgor Cynghori Ofcom Chair, Ofcom Advisory Committee
Emma Meese	Rheolwr y Ganolfan, Ysgol Newyddiaduraeth, y Cyfryngau ac Astudiaethau Diwylliannol, Prifysgol Caerdydd Centre Manager, Cardiff School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies, Cardiff University
Robert Rhys	Cadeirydd, Barn Chair, Barn
Hywel Wiliam	Aelod, Pwyllgor Cynghori Ofcom Member, Ofcom Advisory Committee
Dr Andy Williams	Uwch Ddarlithydd, Ysgol Newyddiaduraeth, y Cyfryngau ac Astudiaethau Diwylliannol, Prifysgol Caerdydd Senior Lecturer, School of Journalism, Media, and Cultural Studies, Cardiff University
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Steve George	Clerc Clerk
Gwyn Griffiths	Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol Senior Legal Adviser
Lowri Harries	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Adam Vaughan	Ail Glerc Second Clerk
Robin Wilkinson	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29. The meeting began at 09:29.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
[1] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Rydym ni yn y cyfarfod ffurfiol nawr, ac eitem 3—eitem 3? Gosh. Eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw’r cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Rwy wedi codi ar ochr anghywir y gwely y bore yma. Croeso i Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol, a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff, ond ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Rydym yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd, ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Peidiwch â chyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau, gan y gall hwn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad unrhyw beth i’w ddatgan o ran buddiant yma heddiw? Na. Ymddiheuriadau: mae ymddiheuriadau gan Neil Hamilton a Lee Waters am y bore yma.		Bethan Jenkins:  Thank you. We’re now in the formal meeting, and item 3—item 3? Gosh. Item 1 is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I’ve come out of bed the wrong side this morning.  Welcome to Assembly Members. If there is a fire alarm, everybody should leave the room through the fire exits and follow the instructions from the ushers and staff. We’re not expecting a test today. Everyone should turn their mobile phones to silent. We operate bilingually and headphones are available to hear the simultaneous translation and to adjust the sound for people who are hard of hearing. The simultaneous translation is available on channel 1, and sound amplification on channel 0. Don’t touch the buttons on the microphones, as doing so can disrupt the system, and please ensure that the red light is on before speaking. Does any Assembly Member have anything to declare? No. Apologies: we’ve had apologies from Neil Hamilton and Lee Waters.
09:30
Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 1
[2] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen at eitem 2 ar yr agenda: newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru, a sesiwn dystiolaeth 1. Rydych chi’n lwcus i fod yn dystion cyntaf i ni yma heddiw. Croeso i Emma Meese, sef rheolwr y ganolfan, Ysgol Newyddiaduraeth, y Cyfryngau ac Astudiaethau Diwylliannol, Prifysgol Caerdydd—teitl hir—a Dr Andy Williams, uwch ddarlithydd, Ysgol Newyddiaduraeth, y Cyfryngau ac Astudiaethau Diwylliannol, Prifysgol Caerdydd, hefyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi’ch dau am ddod.		Bethan Jenkins: We now move on to item 2 on the agenda: news journalism in Wales, and this is evidence session 1. You’re fortunate to be our first witnesses here today. Welcome to Emma Meese, centre manager, School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies, Cardiff University—a long title—and Dr Andy Williams, senior lecturer, School of Journalism, Media, and Cultural Studies, Cardiff University, also. Thank you very much to both of you for attending.
[3] Rydym ni’n cychwyn yr ymchwiliad yma oherwydd yr hyn rydym wedi clywed mewn ymgynghoriadau dros yr haf a chyn hynny, ynglŷn â sefyllfa’r cyfryngau yma yng Nghymru. I ddechrau, gofynnaf i chi beth yw’ch barn gyffredinol ynglŷn â’r sefyllfa. A ydych chi’n credu ei bod yn dirywio? Os felly, beth ydych chi’n credu y gallai helpu i fynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa? Bydd gennym fwy o gwestiynau mewn manylder, ond efallai’n fwy cyffredinol, i ddechrau.		We’re starting this inquiry because of what we’ve heard in consultations over the summer and before that, about the position of the media here in Wales. Just to start with, I want to ask you what your views are in general about the situation. Do you think that it is in decline? If so, what do you believe can be done to address the situation? We will have more in-depth questions, but perhaps a general question to begin with.
[4] Ms Meese: Diolch am y cynnig i ddod yma, rŷm ni’n ei werthfawrogi’n fawr iawn. Cafodd y Ganolfan Newyddiaduraeth Gymunedol—mae’n deitl hir—ei sefydlu yn y brifysgol pum mlynedd yn ôl oherwydd y sefyllfa ar draws Prydain. So, nid yw hon yn unigryw i Gymru; mae ar draws Prydain, ac ar draws y byd. Rwyf i wedi siarad ar draws y byd ar y pwnc yma. Beth rŷm ni wedi gweld yw dirywiad yn nifer y bobl sy’n prynu papurau newydd, achos mae mwy o newyddion ar gael ar-lein, sy’n gwneud synnwyr cyffredin. Wedyn, sut rŷm ni’n cael pobl i dalu arian am newyddiaduraeth o safon da ac o safon uchel? Fe aeth Proffesor Justin Lewis a oedd yn bennaeth yr ysgol ar y pryd i sawl cynhadledd ar draws y byd, ac roedd ef wedi drysu yn y diwedd â phawb a oedd yn poeni am y sefyllfa. Ond, yn hytrach na jest cario ymlaen a meddwl, ‘Mae papurau newydd yn cau, mae hwn yn cael effaith ar sut mae pobl yn cael newyddion am bopeth o wleidyddiaeth i bopeth sy’n digwydd yn eu hardaloedd nhw’, beth oedd e wedi sylwi oedd bod tirlun hollol newydd yn datblygu o wefannau a phobl yn cyhoeddi newyddion yn lleol iawn—hyper-lleol—felly newyddion cymunedol neu leol.		Ms Meese: Thank you for the opportunity to be here, we appreciate it very much. The Centre for Community Journalism—it is a long title—was established in the university five years ago, because of the situation across Britain. So, this isn’t a situation that is unique to Wales; it’s common across Britain and across the world. I’ve spoken across the world on this issue. What we’ve seen is a decline in the number of people buying newspapers, because there is more news available online, so that’s just a matter of common sense. How we then get people to pay for high-quality journalism is certainly an issue. Professor Justin Lewis, who was head of the school at the time, attended a number of conferences worldwide and everyone was very concerned about the situation. But, rather than just carrying on and seeing that newspapers were closing and that that was having an impact on how people accessed their news on everything from politics to what was happening in their areas, what he understood was that there was an entirely new landscape developing in terms of websites and people publishing very local news—hyperlocal—so, community or local news.
[5] Rwyf i jest eisiau esbonio tipyn bach ynglŷn â’r term ‘hyper-lleol’. Mae hynny’n gallu cael rhyw fath o effaith negyddol; mae pobl yn meddwl ei fod yn fach, fach, fach iawn a’ch bod chi dim ond yn meddwl am ryw bentref neu stryd, ond dyw e ddim. Yn ein llygaid ni, beth mae’n meddwl yw pobl sy’n cyhoeddi newyddion sy’n annibynnol ac yn lleol iawn. Beth rŷm ni’n gweld yw bod rhai ohonyn nhw’n tyfu nawr, fel Wrecsam a Chaerffili, i fod ar draws y ddinas neu’r ardal i gyd ac nid jest yn lleol mewn tref neu bentref.		I just want to explain that term, ‘hyperlocal’. That can have a negative impact; people think that it’s very, very, very small and that you’re only talking about a village or a street, but it’s not. In our eyes, it refers to people who publish news independently and at a very local level. Some of them are now developing, for example, in Wrexham and Caerphilly, to cover the whole city, the whole area, and it’s not just local to a single town or village.
[6] So, beth rŷm ni’n ei wneud yw hybu a hyrwyddo’r gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud yn lleol iawn. Un enghraifft yw—a bydd Andy yn siarad mwy am hwn, achos mae lot o ymchwil wedi cael ei wneud—ym Mhort Talbot, roedd y Port Talbot Guardian yn bodoli ond yn 2009, dros nos, fe benderfynodd y cwmni a oedd yn ei redeg nad oedd digon o broffid ynddo. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn deall pam fod papurau newydd yn cau—nid achos nad oes proffid ynddyn nhw, ond achos nad oes digon o proffid ynddyn nhw. So, mae’r cwmnïau mawr sy’n eu rhedeg nhw—. O ran cwmni bach neu gwpwl o unigolion neu gwpwl o bobl a fyddai’n rhedeg un o’r safweoedd newyddion yma, mae yna broffid ynddyn nhw, ond jest ddim digon i’r rhai mawr. So, maen nhw’n eu cau nhw i lawr, a dros nos rwy’n credu yr oedd 138,000 o bobl yn yr ardal wedi colli unrhyw access i newyddion lleol. Nid oedden nhw’n gwybod unrhyw benderfyniadau cyngor, trethi, busnesau, na beth oedd yn digwydd yn eu hardal, na phenderfyniadau sy’n digwydd fan hyn, sut fyddan nhw’n effeithio arnynt—nid oedd unrhyw fodd o gael gafael ar y wybodaeth yna.		So, what we’re doing is promoting the work that’s being done at that very local level. One example—and Andy can tell you more about this, because a great deal of research has been done in this area—in Port Talbot, the Port Talbot Guardian was a local paper and in 2009, overnight, the company that ran the paper decided that there wasn’t enough profit involved. It’s important that we understand why newspapers close—it’s not because they’re not profitable, but it’s because they’re not profitable enough. So, these larger companies decide that there isn’t enough profit, but for a small company or just a few individuals running these news sites, then there is a profit to be made, but it’s not enough for the larger companies. So, they close them down and I think, overnight, 138,000 people in the area lost access to local news. They didn’t know any of the decisions taken by the council on taxation, businesses or what was happening in their area, or what decisions had been taken here and how those would affect them—they had no way of accessing that information.
[7] Felly, daeth saith newyddiadurwr a oedd wedi colli eu swyddi o fewn beth rŷm ni’n ei alw’n ‘mainstream media’, papurau newydd, at ei gilydd a ffurfio co-operative a chreu’r Port Talbot Magnet. Gwnaeth hwnnw weithio’n really dda, ond achos nad oedd unrhyw help ariannol ar gael i’w helpu nhw—fel unrhyw start-up, roedd angen rhyw fath o hwb a help arnyn nhw—yn anffodus, maen nhw wedi gorfod cau.		So, seven journalists who had lost their jobs in what we call ‘mainstream media’, so that’s the print media, came together and formed a co-operative and created the Port Talbot Magnet. That worked very well, but because there was no financial assistance available to them—as with any start-up, they needed some sort of boost and help—unfortunately, they’ve had to close.
[8] Beth sy’n bwysig inni edrych arno nawr yw’r tirlun, a gweld sut ydym ni’n gallu helpu cadw safon uchel o newyddiaduraeth. Ac nid jest unrhyw un sy’n gallu seto lan—mae unrhyw un yn gallu mynd ar Facebook ac mae unrhyw un yn gallu creu tudalen newyddion Facebook. Nid dyna beth ydym ni’n ei drafod fan hyn, ond pobl sydd yn newyddiadurwyr sy’n rhannu newyddion o safon fel bod pobl ar draws Cymru—ac mae hawl gan bawb i gael yr access i newyddiaduraeth.		What’s important for us to look at now is the landscape and to see how we can assist in maintaining high-quality journalism. It’s not just anyone who can set up—anyone can go on Facebook and set up a news page on Facebook, for example, but that is not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about journalists sharing high-quality news output so that people across Wales—and everyone has a right to access journalism.
[9] Pwy rydym ni’n gweithio gydag yw’r cymunedau a’r bobl sy’n seto lan y cyhoeddiadau yma—sut ydym ni’n gallu helpu’r rheini, sut ydym ni’n gallu cryfhau’r sector hwn? So, beth rydym ni’n ei wneud—. Rydym ni’n hynod o falch i gael y cyfle i siarad â chi ac rydym ni’n fwy na pharod i gario ymlaen i weithio gyda chi wrth ein bod ni’n mynd ymlaen i weld sut ydym ni’n gallu sicrhau bod y papurau hyn sy’n cau lawr—bod y trefi a’r pentrefi hynny ddim yn cael eu gadael heb unrhyw access o gwbl i newyddiaduraeth. Beth rwyf i’n ei deimlo’n gryf iawn, ac rwy’n trial meddwl sut i’w ddweud e’n Gymraeg, yw bod yn rhaid inni stopio trafod—rwy’n mynd i ddweud y geiriau’n Saesneg. Mae’n rhaid inni stopio meddwl am newspapers, a dechrau meddwl am news publishers, achos mae’r tirlun wedi newid, ac mae hynny’n hynod, hynod o bwysig. Dyna un peth rwyf i’n teimlo’n really gryf amdano.		What we’re doing is working with communities and the people who are setting up these publications and websites, and seeing how we can assist those, how we can strengthen this sector. So, what we’re doing—. We’re extremely pleased to have the opportunity to discuss this with you and we’re more than happy to continue working with you as you move forward to see how we can ensure that these papers that do close down—that those towns and villages aren’t left without any access to journalism at all. What I feel very strongly about, and I’m trying to work out how to express this—I’m going to say this in English: we have to stop thinking in terms of newspapers and start to think of news publishers, because the landscape has been transformed, and that’s very, very important. That’s something I feel very strongly about.
[10] Rydym ni wastad yn siarad am bapurau newydd, ac mae hyd yn oed y derminoleg nawr—nid yw papurau newydd yn cael yr un reach. Nid ydynt yn cael yr un effaith ag oedden nhw. Mae pobl yn cael access i newyddiaduraeth mewn ffordd hollol wahanol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod ni a’ch bod chi yn edrych ar sut ydym ni’n gallu helpu ac ehangu’r sector.		We’re always talking about newspapers, and even the terminology now—the newspapers don’t have the same reach or the same impact as they had in the past. People access journalism in an entirely new way. It’s important that we and that you look at how we can assist and enhance the sector.
[11] Wrth ein bod ni’n trafod newyddiaduriaeth o ran papurau newydd—so hyd yn oed pethach fel public notices a statutory notices, nid yw’n sector ni yn cael access i’r arian yna o gwbl, achos mae lot o gynghorau a phobl sy’n gorfod rhoi notices mas—beth maen nhw’n ei wneud yw maen nhw’n dweud, ‘O, mae'n rhaid inni ei roi e mewn papur newydd.’ Wrth gwrs, maen nhw wedyn yn gallu ‘charge-o’ unrhyw beth maen nhw’n moyn ac mae’r arian yna i gyd yn dal yn mynd i’r sector draddodiadol—papurau newydd traddodiadol. Ond os ydych chi’n edrych ar yr ystadegau, a bydd Andy’n trafod yr ystadegau yma’n fanwl, nid ydyn nhw’n cael y reach a’r effaith rhagor. Felly, mae’n hollbwysig ein bod ni’n awr yn dechrau meddwl am sut ydym ni’n gallu helpu’r sector ac nid jest meddwl o ran papurau newydd.		As we discuss journalism in terms of newspapers—even things such as public notices and statutory notices, our sector doesn’t have access to that funding at all, because there are many councils and people who have to publish notices—what they do is they say, ‘Well, we have to place that in a newspaper.’ Of course, they can then charge whatever they please, and all of that funding then goes into the traditional newsprint sector. But if you look at the stats, and Andy will cover the stats in more detail, they don’t have that reach and impact anymore. So, it’s crucially important we now start to think about how we can assist the sector, and not just think in terms of newspapers.
[12] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Andy.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Andy.
[13] Dr Williams: It’s a sector that has been dominated by narratives of decline for a number of years, isn’t it? We know that printed newspapers themselves are in serious decline, and the stats that I presented in evidence from the Western Mail are broadly indicative of circulation declines across the field. They’ve also seen circulation declines in printed advertising revenues. You might throw your hands up and say, ‘Look, we’re in the digital age, Andy. Why should I care about this? Newspapers are yesterday’s game, and all the companies are now focusing on digital and making revenues to support the public interest journalism at a local level that we all need online.’ The problem there is that, by far, the overwhelming bulk of all the revenues and profits that are made by the big, traditional, established local news producers are still coming from print. Even though print has been decimated in terms of its revenues and the size of those revenues over recent years, the proportion of money that pays for our journalists in our local communities coming from print is still huge. If you look at that graph where I mapped out the advertising and circulation revenues from print, and the very slender one—the advertising revenues from online, all of the established local media companies have now put their eggs in the online basket, despite only very slim profit and revenue rises. This is what they’re putting their hopes in, and this is where our hopes for the future of Welsh public service media reside, in large part, and there’s no—to use terminology that we’re all familiar with at the moment, there’s a massive, gaping black hole in the future budgets of how the big publishers are going to pay for local journalism, because digital just isn’t making that money.
[14] At the same time, the strategies that they’re employing in the current context, because of the declining revenues that they’re facing, mean that they’re consolidating more and more. They’re buying up and becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. We saw that with the takeover of Local World by Trinity Mirror very recently. That’s going to just lead to more of the same in terms of commercial and editorial strategies. In commercial strategies, that’s going to mean we’re going to need to see far more cuts in the future. Just look at the differential between the revenues from print and the revenues from digital. Those cuts have paid for the falling revenues so far. A lot of the value has been taken out and given to shareholders in the form of dividends and not reinvested in the product—what revenues there have been—which means that we just have to face up to the fact that established professional journalism in the form that we’ve become used to seeing it is just withdrawing from our communities, and what we’re being left with is something far from a plural media system.
[15] Local news has become less local, less independent. The effects of these commercial and editorial strategies have been very clear for two to three decades. The evidence base is a little bit less secure since 2008, the academic evidence base, but what we do have in its stead, something we didn’t have really before, is a massive explosion of these confessional and campaigning whistleblower accounts from inside news organisations, and people who’ve just been made redundant. Some people are still in their jobs and are talking anonymously, and in some cases, even people who’ve quit—news journalists who’ve quit—at the state of affairs, because they just don’t see themselves providing the value that they should be providing to their communities.
[16] Bethan Jenkins: Jest yn glou, rydych chi’n dweud bod y patrwm yn un Prydeinig, neu yn un byd-eang hyd yn oed. A oes yna bethau sydd yn benodol, efallai, i Gymru y byddech chi’n gallu pwyntio atyn nhw yn glir? Oherwydd, i fod yn devil’s advocate, o ran Port Talbot, wrth gwrs roedd yna lai o newyddion achos roedd y Neath Guardian wedi dod i ben, ond wedyn mae’r South Wales Evening Post yn gwneud rhyw fath o newyddiaduraeth i Bort Talbot. So, efallai y bydden nhw’n dadlau, ‘Wel, mae hynny yn rhywbeth rydym ni yn gwneud ac yn ceisio gwneud yn lleol’. A oes yna bethau sydd yn benodol wedi effeithio ar gymunedau Cymru i gyfiawnhau pam nad ydyn nhw yn derbyn y newyddion am wleidyddiaeth neu am beth sy’n digwydd yn eu tref nhw o gymharu â Phrydain?		Bethan Jenkins: Just quickly, you say that the pattern is a British one, or a global one, even. Are there things that are, perhaps, specific to Wales that you could point out clearly? Because, to be a devil’s advocate, in terms of Port Talbot, of course there was less news because the Neath Guardian was coming to an end, but then the South Wales Evening Post does provide some sort of journalism for Port Talbot. So, perhaps they could argue, ‘Well, that is something that we are doing and trying to do locally’. Are there things that have specifically affected Welsh communities to justify why they’re not receiving news about politics or what’s happening in their town compared with Britain?
[17] Dr Williams: Do you mind if I jump in?
[18] Ms Meese: No, go on.
[19] Dr Williams: First of all, to address some of the logic underlying the question, and then to specifically address the question: it’s not good enough for us to think, ‘Well, the Evening Post is still there. There’s still some local news.’ Because the news that the Evening Post has provided been hit by the withdrawal of journalism that I’ve talked about in the evidence. Just as much as the—well, not quite as much, but almost as much as the news that was provided by the Guardian. The Guardian has gone, right? But the Evening Post has been gutted from within. The amount of journalists who used to be there providing us with local news in the Evening Post is a fraction of what it used to be.
[20] You asked about whether there were specific challenges to Wales. You’re right, these are challenges that are being faced across developed media markets across the world. But there are some challenges that are specific to Wales and specific to places like Wales elsewhere in the world. First of all, most of the news media, the commercial news media that gets made is produced outside of Wales. There’s very little indigenous Welsh media. At a local level, that Welsh media is dominated by one of the big UK publishers, and one of the trends that the research outlines is that news becomes increasingly less local in its orientation as we go along. Some of these are things that are specific to Wales, some aren’t, and are being felt all over the world.
[21] Whether it’s specific to Wales or not isn’t the most important question, I don’t think. What Wales can do to make itself distinctive in how it deals with these problems is something that we could focus on instead. Yes, there are widespread problems being faced by lots of countries with similar media markets to ours, to different degrees of how bad it can get. But we’ve got an opportunity. Okay, media policy isn’t devolved, but there are still things that we can be doing. There are still things that we can be thinking about to innovate in this area and to actually do something positive now. Because there is a reason to do something positive now. I think that’s the other side of the research that I submitted and it relates totally to the work that the Centre for Community Journalism is doing as well.
09:45
[22] Media at a local level has the potential to be much more plural. It’s doing an awful lot of good. The hyperlocal community news that we’re seeing in the UK, and which is being commented on across the world, because the underlying conditions are the same elsewhere as well, is playing some of the roles, in sometimes different ways, and sometimes the same ways, in relation to civic life and community and democracy, that the traditional established news media has played. It’s doing it in patchy and uneven ways across the country, and across the world, and that’s an issue that we’ve got to deal with, but there’s work being done that gives me, for the first time in my career researching this, really, reasons to be optimistic. But I think that we need to support community and hyperlocal and independent local news more generally, given the incredibly challenging market conditions they’re facing at the moment. We’re moving—.
[23] The decline of Trinity Mirror and local news in Wales is partly down just to irrevocable trends during the digitisation of communication, and it’s partly down to the severe mismanagement and profiteering of that company. But because of the conditions which have changed across the sector, it means that more people, smaller independent local news providers all over the world, Wales included, are doing stuff that is of social value, civic value and community value, sometimes in ways that we’re familiar with, sometimes in new ways. But they’re precarious and they need support, and one of the things that I’d more than happy to talk about is what ways we might innovate in Wales in that regard.
[24] Bethan Jenkins: Os yw’n iawn gyda Emma, rydym yn mynd i symud ymlaen, achos mae lot o gwestiynau gyda ni, ond bydd cyfle i chi ddod nôl ar hynny. Mae Hannah yn mynd i ofyn mwy o gwestiynau nawr. Diolch.		Bethan Jenkins: If it’s okay with Emma, we’ll move on because we have many questions, but there will be an opportunity for you to come back on that. Hannah is now going to ask more questions. Thank you.
[25] Hannah Blythyn: I think, Emma, in your paper, you say there is in the region of 40 hyperlocal community newspaper sites. That’s quite a high percentage if you look at it in terms of per head of population in Wales. Why do you think that is? Is it a direct correlation to the decline in traditional media, or are there other reasons why we’ve seen such a growth here?
[26] Ms Meese: I think it’s a combination. It’s not just a decline in the growth. So, even if you do have a newspaper there, they don’t have the journalists anymore. So, when I started on the Carmarthen Journal, there were nine of us there, and the tools of my trade were my notepad, my pen and my feet. I didn’t have a mobile phone, didn’t have Google, and I went out on my patch. I knew my patch. I’d bump into people. I knew the local police. I knew the local council. I knew everybody, and they’d pop in to see me, I’d pop out to see them, and I would get the news and information. Now, they’re centralised, so covering the Rhondda, for example, they’re sitting in Cardiff. You’re not going to bump into anyone. You’re getting a press release—anyone can publish a press release. So, actually, there’s no room anymore in local news for local fêtes, for local gatherings, fundraising. You know, the whole standing there with a cheque, ‘Oh, we’ve raised £100 for the community.’ It’s important, you know. I remember in the Llanelli Star seeing how the local rugby teams had done and everything in the back. You don’t get that anymore because it’s all lumped into one. And people still have that need for news and information. In Port Talbot, they found out that there was a trial to close the M4 corridor, the main blood supply of traffic and people into Port Talbot. There was graffiti on the wall. Is that any way for any democratic society to work in Wales? Absolutely not. And those are covering their headlines. So—
[27] Bethan Jenkins: I don’t know if that’s entirely the case. Some of us did say it in other ways as well. [Laughter.]
[28] Ms Meese: A lot of people would generally access news and information, and what you don’t want to have in Wales is that people are turning to things like ‘spotted’ Facebook page, where people turn around and set up a page, and it’s completely anonymous, and they’ll say anything and do anything, and it makes my blood run cold, because, actually, people still don’t understand that you still need journalists, but you can’t expect journalists to work for free. We need to support and nurture—some of the work that hyperlocal and community journalists are doing is fantastic, and there’s this misconception about the level, and maybe they’re amateurs. A huge amount of them are people who have lost their jobs in mainstream media, and are still passionate about journalism. The quality of journalism is not under question, and that’s we as a centre are there to do.
[29] We’re just in the process of setting up ICNN, which is an independent community news network, which is a UK-wide network, which is bringing together the 500-plus publishers rights across the UK, and giving them one voice and saying, ‘Okay, well what are the issues, what does this sector need, and how can we now start levelling the playing field?’ At the moment, it is not a level playing field. And in order to get good-quality access to news and information right across Wales, we need to level the playing field.
[30] Dr Williams: Just a little bit of an addition, I did some research about what motivates community news journalists and hyperlocal people to start doing what they’re doing, and one of the things that is common across the UK, really, is the perceived—the underserved nature of the communities by local news. Some of them don’t even see what they’re doing as local news, some of them explicitly do, like Emma was saying. But this information deficit is something that’s keenly felt by the people who are doing this, very much.
[31] Hannah Blythyn: It was interesting what you said about the misperception that people have that hyperlocal news is people who just decided to set up and it’s quite a voluntary, amateur aspect to it, but I think it was Dr Williams who said that half have had some kind of mainstream training.
[32] Dr Williams: Yes, or experience.
[33] Hannah Blythyn: Yes, sorry, or experience—and that some were people who had lost their jobs and now have gone into this. It’s always quite difficult anyway to get into mainstream journalism—to have those opportunities and to sustain a career. So, how can we better support and sustain not only the democratic aspect of having that local journalism, but how do we get particularly younger people to see that as an attractive and long-term option for the future?
[34] Ms Meese: Some of the work that we’re doing is addressing that and some students and graduates are looking at—if you look at The Bristol Cable, for example, they’re a co-operative of recent graduates who came together and they do a lot of investigative work and they’ve got a really good business model and they’ve got members. So, you pay a membership and they’ve got hundreds of members across Bristol who pay to fund it. So, we need to make sure that people understand that this is still a viable option, but we can’t expect them to work as volunteers. It’s not about giving money away and propping it up. It’s about bridging. It’s like start-up loans. It’s recognising it as a start-up business.
[35] So, we’re doing a lot of work at the moment with the NUJ in order to get press cards and press recognition. One of the issues at the moment with getting access to a press card is the amount of money you make—so what percentage of your income is from journalism. So, George Osborne doesn’t make the majority of his money from journalism, so he doesn’t get a press card, which I quite love. It’s about working and getting that—. Whether or not you ever need to use your press card, it’s that acceptance and that validity that, ‘Yes, I am a proper journalist and I am doing important work’, and it’s recognising the sector. Yes, it might not be a local newspaper and it might not be one of the big media organisations, but it’s no less valid and no less important.
[36] Bethan Jenkins: Symudwn ymlaen nawr at gefnogi newyddiaduriaeth newyddion lleol ac mae gan Jeremy gwestiynau.		Bethan Jenkins: We will move on now to supporting local news journalism and Jeremy has questions.
[37] Jeremy Miles: Cyn inni fynd ymlaen, a gaf fi ofyn rhywbeth yn fras?		Jeremy Miles: Before we move on, can I ask something?
[38] You have set out in your evidence the three categories, if you like: volunteers, people earning a little bit of money—
[39] Dr Williams: And then the group in the middle who are professionalising.
[40] Jeremy Miles: Yes, exactly. So that I’ve got a picture in my mind of what we’re talking about in terms of people’s daily level of work in hyperlocal news, at the top end of it, on the most resilient you’ve come across, the most enterprising and the best funded, whether that’s in Wales or anywhere across the UK, how many people are we talking about?
[41] Dr Williams: Employed by news organisations?
[42] Jeremy Miles: Yes. Are they just spending all of their time on that or are they also doing other jobs? What’s the picture?
[43] Dr Williams: It’s a mixed picture—
[44] Jeremy Miles: At the best end of it.
[45] Dr Williams: I don’t talk about it in terms of ‘best’ or ‘worst’, because it’s different. The ones who don’t want to make money have a lot of value to add as well and they can be supported in different ways by the work at the Centre for Community Journalism.
[46] Jeremy Miles: Okay, but just accept the premise for now that I’m looking at the most resilient financially—so what does that look like?
[47] Dr Williams: At the most resilient financially end of the spectrum, you’ve got small teams of around about three or four local journalists and enough revenues to pay the wages of those journalists—not always to NUJ standards, it has to be said. Sometimes, the pay and conditions are worse than in local newspaper companies, which is something not to be sniffed at, because it’s pretty bad there. But, again, they’re growing and there’s evidence that some of them have grown and have improved in that area. There aren’t many of those.
[48] Ms Meese: I would look at, if you want examples, the Caerphilly Observer. Richard Gurner set up the Caerphilly Observer when he was down in Brighton and he wanted to find out news and information that was happening back—. Even though there was the Mercury and a few others, they didn’t cover the whole of the Caerphilly borough and he wasn’t finding enough information to satisfy—. So, he set up what was essentially a news and information blog from Brighton with the hope of moving back. Now he employs a reporter, pays a full-time salary to himself, has a fortnightly newspaper, has a website, a Twitter feed and a Facebook page. In the Wales Media Awards, when they were first resurrected three years ago, it won ‘Scoop of the Year’, so it beat Trinity Mirror, Media Wales, BBC and ITV.
[49] Wrexham.com, I would look at, and then there’s Mytown Media, which do My Newtown and My Welshpool as well. They fund themselves fully.
[50] Dr Williams: There’s a mix of revenue models as well—primarily online advertising. I’d say most people employ more than one revenue model. Some subsidise what they do with other part-time work. Some of them have crowdfunded. Some of them have audience co-ops, worker co-ops, blah-di-blah-di-blah. It’s a range of things.
[51] Jeremy Miles: Okay. That’s helpful. Thank you both—just to clarify the picture in my mind. So, looking at new initiatives that you’ve both talked about in your evidence, in the community journalism centre, you’ve trained up an awful lot of journalists and you’ve done lots of work internationally—so it’s obviously delivering front-line support as well as analysing the market. What’s the scale of the ambition of the centre generally?
[52] Ms Meese: It’s on our whiteboard: we want to ensure there are more jobs for journalists at a local level and to make sure the standard of journalism in Wales and across the UK is as high as it can be. So, if anybody wants to enter the sector, they have somewhere to go for support. When I worked for the BBC, if I wanted to publish something and I wasn’t quite sure, I could ring a 24-hour line—editorial policy or a legal team—and they would tell me, ‘Yes, it’s okay to press publish’, or not. If you’re a small independent and you’re working by yourself, or maybe two of you, and you’re not quite sure, we provide that support and information. So, as members of ICNN now, they all adhere to the editors’ code of practice. That gives a standard that the BBC accepts as reputable and quality news publishers. We’re working in partnership with the BBC so that our members can now have access to some of the BBC content. The BBC will publish their content as well as part of the local democracy reporters scheme. We have got one of the leading media law experts on a retainer, so they can ring up any hour of the day or night and get legal advice. So, this is all helping to raise—just having that support mechanism in place makes sure that they can go that little bit further and they can do that other little investigation or can push it that little bit further, knowing that they’ve got somebody that they can check with. So, that’s really, really important.
[53] Jeremy Miles: And that is the work of the centre, as opposed to the work of the new community news network. Is that right?
[54] Ms Meese: Yes. They’re both one—. So, we run the network—
[55] Jeremy Miles: And the network has a lobbying and advocacy role, principally, rather than a service delivery role.
[56] Dr Williams: No, not principally. The network is going to more formally allow the centre to do what you’ve been doing all along, isn’t it? Training, research, support, advocacy is part of that—networking is part of that. But, the advocacy and networking side will be strengthened by ICNN because they’ll be much more of a concrete, representative link between the sector and us, whereas at the moment, for the last few years, Emma has been interfacing between relevant stakeholders and this growing, emergent sector without the kind of legitimacy to do that. This is going to allow us to do that.
[57] Jeremy Miles: Because it’s member based, effectively.
[58] Ms Meese: Yes. It makes a difference. You know, I could stand here—. I sit on the BBC’s local journalism working group board, but I’ve been there as the manager of the Centre for Community Journalism, as opposed to speaking on behalf of the sector, because I was acutely aware that they hadn’t given me the right to speak on behalf of the whole sector. At least now I can go forward with a voice—one voice for the whole sector.
[59] Dr Williams: After consulting in the way that we always have.
[60] Jeremy Miles: Okay. That’s helpful. Dr Williams, you’ve spoken in your evidence about re-evaluating policies for local news generally. Really, you’re advocating a more experimental approach, I suppose, in a fluid market for both print and online. Who are you asking to do what, if you like, in terms of that new policy framework?
[61] Dr Williams: Okay—maybe the things that I think could be done and who could do what after that. Successive UK governments have concentrated on national media regulation and policy a lot over the last few years, haven’t they? But, while they’ve been doing that, we’ve seen this creeping crisis in local news get worse in different ways. Now we’ve got this quite declining market, dominated by a small number of big players with very little plurality. So, I think we need to review the existing subsidies that we have for local news in the UK and reimagine them for the digital age. Things like councils paying statutory notices—that’s £45 million to £50 million a year, estimated. Other bodies pay for statutory notices as well. I think some work needs to be done on which ones and where and how this could be reimagined for a digital communication ecosystem. Tax breaks for newspapers on printed products—that’s a significant amount of money, estimated in excess of £500 million annually—but there are no analogous tax breaks for online news providers. I’m not asking for the same—obviously, it wouldn’t work—but that was come up with for a reason. We could do something similar. In addition to these—. For online, I mean. In addition to those big ones, you’ve got the BBC’s local democracy reporter scheme, which is the BBC kind of top-slicing itself, and you’ve got Jeremy Hunt’s local tv, which was another £40 million in Government investment and more money from the BBC. There’s the Welsh language—
10:00
[62] Jeremy Miles: So, with those pots of money, what are you advocating that happens to them?
[63] Dr Williams: I’m saying that we should look again at all of them and look at what we’re encouraging with these subsidies—what the aims of these subsidies are—apply them to the new fragmented digital ecosystem that we’ve got at a local level and see what we can do to reimagine these subsidies or come up with new ones that are better suited to the digital environment.
[64] You’ve got the Welsh language subsidy for news in Welsh in Wales as well, which is, obviously, very wise. Less wise recently, we’ve had a lot of money being given to Newsquest for the subbing hub in Newport. That’s not a subsidy for the local news industry, but it did subsidise the local news industry, because it was a subsidy for jobs, wasn’t it? We can be more thoughtful about the benefits to democracy and civic life, as well as jobs, when we’re looking at this sector, I think.
[65] Jeremy Miles: You talked about a kind of contestable smart fund, effectively, that they can bid into. Do you have a number or a range in your mind of the sort of money that you’re looking at to deliver a real step change in the sector?
[66] Dr Williams: No, I don’t have a number, but we do have various different precedents that we can look at. That’s an example of something new that we can do, isn’t it? It’s already been done on quite a big scale with the Knight News Challenge in the US, which is doing precisely what I want to do, really, or what I think should be done. It’s looking at areas of need—so, filling deficits in public interest news coverage, local politics and public services; encouraging community participation in the media, production and in the community more generally; using new technology to innovate in the production or the dissemination of local news; and doing media-based community action. All of these things have been—there have been bids around to develop new ideas and innovate in the practice of local news in the US.
[67] In the UK, we’ve got an awful lot less foundation funding, so we’ve got a very different challenge. We’ve had some—you’ve got charities like Nesta and you’ve had organisations like the Carnegie UK Trust being active in providing start-up pots or bridging funding in the way that Emma was talking about, which is contestable. So, it’s targeted at the people who are doing this best and are likely to innovate most well in this area, and it’s bounded, so it’s not like unlimited handouts for local news. It’s problem based, so, for example, we talk to a lot of people who have got to a certain size and can’t grow any more, and they have plans to grow—that kind of thing.
[68] Jeremy Miles: Your proposal here—just finally, briefly, if you would—is for new public money to go into a fund, essentially. So, it’s not recategorising or repackaging existing support from Nesta and Carnegie—it’s a new fund.
[69] Dr Williams: No, it would have to be a new fund. Nesta and Carnegie’s support is not ongoing forever in this field. They’re active, and they’ve provided some good models for us to look at and learn from, I think, but, yes, I think there would be some new money from somewhere involved, unfortunately. I know that that’s a difficult message and I know it’s challenging, but I really do think that the issues that we face are equally challenging at the moment.
[70] Jeremy Miles: Thank you, both.
[71] Bethan Jenkins: Mae Dawn yn mynd i gario ymlaen gyda chwestiynau ynglŷn â chyllido’r sector yma.		Bethan Jenkins: Dawn is now going to continue with questions on funding this sector.
[72] Dawn Bowden: Thank you. This is just following on, really, from what Jeremy was saying. Can I start with the regional newspapers and whether you think that any additional state support should be provided for traditional news journalism? If so, what should be the focus of that kind of support? Should we be looking at the economic and social objectives of journalism, or should that be more—do you think there should be more state support for those kinds of media?
[73] Ms Meese: Do you mean traditional newspapers?
[74] Dawn Bowden: Yes.
[75] Ms Meese: I think I started, when I did my written evidence, by saying that it’s not about not giving support to those—absolutely not. I think it’s across the board—it’s just reimagining and relooking at how that’s given. If you look at statutory notices and things, there’s an awful lot of money that goes to them already. So, I’m not saying, ‘Don’t give any more money to save a local newspaper’. I’m not saying not to give any more money, but there would have to be caveats on how that money is spent, because, if it’s going into a big pot—. So, if we look at what happened with Newsquest, it was for 50 jobs over a five-year period. It was a huge amount of money and actually that’s kind of gone into a big black hole, really, whereas, if you look at—you know, Caerphilly Observer, two journalists, Wrexham.com, two journalists, two or three covering MyNewtown, MyWelshpool. So, that’s six journalists. So, if you can image, for a fraction of the money that would’ve gone to those, they’d have got more staff. I know they’ve got plans to expand, but they don’t have that opportunity. So, I’m not saying don’t give to local papers. I’m not saying it’s an ‘us and them’. It’s about looking at where the money is best—. Are we best ploughing it into traditional models? Or if they came up with a new and innovative way of sharing news and information then, absolutely, let’s look at it. But I think what we have to stop doing is just ploughing money into what we know and understand as a traditional news model.
[76] Dawn Bowden: Sure, and you were saying that the hyperlocals don’t have access to that type of funding.
[77] Ms Meese: They just don’t. I’ve looked everywhere and if somebody could tell me where that money came from for Newsquest—because now, as I’ve seen it—. What we’ve done is that for five years we’ve worked on a heads-down, grass-roots level and set up or worked intensively with 10 community news hubs across Wales to make sure—. So, either there was a gap—. So, we set up Pobl Caerdydd in Cardiff, which was—there was no access to news and information in one place in the Welsh language—a community of interest within a geographical community, and then Rhondda People. So, we’ve set up a number of hyperlocals and we’ve learnt from each one what works when you’re setting one up and what doesn’t, and let’s try and replicate what works and not what doesn’t. And we’ve realised that, as we’ve moved forward, collectively, what’s needed is this collective voice for the sector and how we can raise relevance for the sector as a whole.
[78] Dawn Bowden: So, are you suggesting that hyperlocals should be accessing the same fund as the regional papers—
[79] Ms Meese: Absolutely.
[80] Dawn Bowden: —not a separate fund that should be set up specifically for—
[81] Ms Meese: If the money’s there, they should have access to it. So, before we start thinking about separate funds, if there’s money there, how can we make sure, if you are publishing news—? It comes back to my—you know, we have to stop thinking of newspapers and start thinking of news publishers, and the same with statutory notices. People have been refused. They’ve got fantastic circulation figures, readerships, far higher than traditional papers in some areas, and then they say, ‘Well, we can publish your statutory notices at a fraction of the cost’ and they go, ‘Oh, but you’re not a newspaper.’ How do you define ‘newspaper’? Well, if you look in the dictionary, a newspaper is a printed publication that is daily or weekly—‘Oh, you’re fortnightly, so you don’t class as a newspaper.’
[82] Dawn Bowden: What do you think the impact of that would be—if hyperlocals could have the public notices as well?
[83] Ms Meese: A huge impact—absolute huge impact.
[84] Dawn Bowden: In terms of revenue and—.
[85] Ms Meese: In terms of revenue it’s going to make a massive difference to them because, at the moment, you have to publish a public notice, and, if you’ve only got one place to put it, you only have one price and that’s it, and that is a premium price. We know that’s a premium price that’s paid to publish there. And if you can go to somewhere where you’re going to get more reach—more bang for your buck—then why not take that option? At the end of the day, the whole point of a public notice is that the public get to see the notice. Maybe I’m oversimplifying it here. So, instead of just putting it where it’s traditionally been put, where we know, statistically, those circulation figures are falling, why aren’t we putting it where people are actually going to see the notices? That’s just not happening across the board.
[86] Dr Williams: Just to come back with a short response to your question, I’m a little bit more sceptical about continuing to—. And we should talk about us continuing to give public money to the publishers as well, because this isn’t some new funding we’re proposing now. There’s lots of public money around and I just highlighted six or seven different pots of public money, a lot of which go to the local news publishers. I’d be really worried about giving them more public money unless it was tied to specific areas of need and the provision of public interest local news, and unless there were ways that it could be ring-fenced within those companies to avoid that public money being paid out in pay-outs to shareholders, which is what they’ve done consistently since they’ve opened all of these local media companies.
[87] Dawn Bowden: So, what would those specific areas be that would qualify them for additional funding in your view?
[88] Dr Williams: I think that, looking at the research that’s there to date and looking at the kinds of accounts I was drawing on in the absence of research in the more recent years, then it’s straight-up public interest reporting of politics and public life and local institutions and elites and things like that, because these are the things that are being squeezed out or which there is less room for in the programmatic advertising-based centralised business model at Trinity Mirror and all the other publishers.
[89] Bethan Jenkins: Dawn, just before you carry on with the line of questions, Suzy wanted to come in on this specifically.
[90] Dawn Bowden: Sure. By all means, yes.
[91] Suzy Davies: I don’t mind waiting—[Inaudible.] It’s about funding more generally.
[92] Bethan Jenkins: Oh, okay.
[93] Dawn Bowden: I’m nearly through, Chair. I just wanted to ask you a little bit about—. I think you touched on it there, Dr Williams, earlier in your answer to Jeremy, but can you talk a little bit more about the—you were talking about, in the USA, the Knight Foundation, and what happens there. Perhaps you could just tell us a bit more about that and how we could possibly learn from that here.
[94] Ms Meese: Yes, so that’s something that we have got aims as C4CJ to possibly replicate, and now that we’ve got ICNN and arbiters of funding, that’s something that, maybe, if we could access a big pot of money—we’ve got aims to go to the Big Lottery, for example, and, if our members can’t access these pots of money, maybe we can access a big pot of money and they can access it via us. And the Knight Foundation—there’s the Geraldine R. Dodge Foundation, which is in New Jersey, they do very similar work, so we work quite closely with Josh Stearns in America, so we learn what’s happening there and they learn from us what’s happening over here. So, we’re very similar as centres that are tied within a university. So, we look at research and take that research out into the real world, and what we learn in the real world we put back into the research. This is an ever-evolving cycle of learning and there’s no such thing as a failure, because if it fails we can learn and evaluate, and assess why did that fail and how can we make sure it doesn’t happen next time. So, access to something like a Knight Foundation here would be fantastic, because it’s about educating, it’s about trialling its use. It’s not just about giving pots of money: it’s seed corn, it’s bridge funding, and it’s having a business case and saying, ‘This is what I aim to achieve’, and, like any start-up, having that opportunity to just say, ‘Well, I’m going to give this a go’, without having to work in your day job and then do it by night, and you know—.
[95] Dr Williams: They fund individual news sites, but they also fund wider and more ambitious projects that are creating platforms for local news provision in the public interest, as well as individual cases. And, like Emma said, one of the things that they do is they constantly evaluate and study and research what works and what doesn’t work, and they learn from that and it feeds into further—
[96] Dawn Bowden: So, does it basically give an organisation or news outlet the opportunity to run without fear of being closed down because it can’t afford to keep going? It just—
[97] Dr Williams: Yes, but it’s more problem-focused than that. It’s not, ‘Here’s some money—
[98] Dawn Bowden: It’s not just funding. No, I understand that.
[99] Dr Williams: —to exist’. ‘Here’s some money to innovate or to grow or to expand or to change your business—
[100] Dawn Bowden: But it gives them the opportunity to start up.
[101] Dr Williams: —in ways that will help others as well as you’.
[102] Ms Meese: Andy touched on it earlier: what we are seeing is you get to that junction where you’re going, ‘I’ve gone as far as I can with it, but I cannot sustain running a complete news service for my community and go to council meetings and courts and cover all of that and also have a day job, but then I can’t afford to give up the day job in order to do it full time’. And you get to that balance, and that’s what we need to make sure—that they don’t just close down if they’re, ‘I can’t do it anymore because I can’t afford to keep doing it, and I can’t keep working 18 hours a day’. And it’s making sure that they’ve got that sort of support. You just say, ‘Okay, well I can leave the day job and I can do it’, and they’ve already got that track record of want, need, service quality, all that kind of stuff.
[103] Dawn Bowden: I understand. Yes, that’s fine. Okay. Thank you.
[104] Bethan Jenkins: Suzy.
[105] Suzy Davies: Yes. I just wanted to know, when you talk particularly about access to other funds, if you like, what do you mean by ‘local’? How local is local? Because we have some written evidence here that, when we’re talking about Welsh language media, the use of public money has helped enormously. But in publications—not publications; online publications, then—primarily that talk about things of interest to different parts of Wales but all in one place, rather than different parts of Wales in different places, if that makes any sense—. Have you got a strong view on the best way or the most efficient way to use public money in those circumstances? Is there a plurality issue—I don’t want to wander onto that particularly—but if it’s working for Welsh language through two or three publishers, if I can call them that—?
[106] Ms Meese: And you also have funding for the papurau bro. So, there are, on the last count, I think—yes, 52 papurau bro.
[107] Suzy Davies: Does that count as news, because it’s a version of click journalism, one argument would go, isn’t it?
[108] Ms Meese: It does, it does, but it’s journalism for a particular audience. It’s more your traditional—it’s your capeli, it’s community journalism, and it’s hatches, matches and dispatches.
[109] Suzy Davies: It gives people what they want, was my comparison with click-journalism.
[110] Ms Meese: It does, and it’s important that you know in your community. I know what’s happening in Australia; I’ve got school friends and I keep in touch with them over there. Do I know people in my street? Not necessarily. So, it’s about knowing what’s important in your community. The papurau bro, for example: we’ve been doing a lot of work with papurau bro in order to help them go digital, and what we’ve found is leaving the papurau bro do what they do and have their print editions, but, actually, alongside get a different group of people who work with them, but separately, to set up a digital news service, because there is that fear that the traddodiad—the tradition—of papurau bro will die out with the people who sit there and have the cyfarfod plygu, which is a folding meeting in the church hall, and—
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[111] Suzy Davies: Been there, done that.
[112] Ms Meese: Yes. So, actually it’s making sure that, in a digital age, that tradition doesn’t die out, so we are doing a lot of work—
[113] Suzy Davies: My question is about something different, though. It’s not quite, ‘Should we have English papurau bro?’ but if that in itself is a model. In the Welsh language, that’s a bit precarious for the reasons you’ve said. Should we be looking up the chain a little bit towards more the area that Jeremy was talking about? Because I don’t want to make this about Welsh language.
[114] Dr Williams: That’s not the model that I think that the evidence suggests would be the best to advocate for in this situation, because what we’ve got is a situation where the news has become progressively less local, where journalists have been withdrawing from communities at that local level. We’re still quite well served by regional media in Wales, aren’t we? Yes, they’re facing huge and significant problems, but there’s a fair amount of regional English language news. There’s very little local, community-based English language news compared to that, and the problem is that’s what we’ve lost. So, to come back to the example of Port Talbot earlier on, and Bethan playing devil’s advocate around maybe the Evening Post there is enough, this will illustrate why it’s not enough, and why we need to focus on these local areas, and not the bigger regions. In Port Talbot, you used to have 11 journalists working across five newspapers—all based in the town. They were telling stories about local life, in very much the same way as the papurau bro were, but they were also holding local elites and public institutions to account.
[115] Suzy Davies: Yes, that’s the bit that’s missing now, isn’t it? We’ve still got—
[116] Dr Williams: That’s the bit that has been taken out now, and we need to understand how we can start to have a little bit more of that again. There are huge economic challenges, and I think that the use of a new pot of targeted money will help us understand what works where and what doesn’t work in different places. It will help us allow the sector to learn and grow as a whole, rather than only helping the individual cases involved that would be in receipt of whatever form of subsidy it would be. That’s what we’d like to see.
[117] Suzy Davies: I’m glad you’ve said that, because, as I say, I don’t want the answer to this to be, ‘Well, just have some English papurau bro, then.’ Because there’s no news in that.
[118] Ms Meese: No, and it’s different, and it’s about making local authorities accountable, and it’s about getting news and information and decisions that are made here, getting people understanding how that impacts them. One of the projects we did as a pilot project was an after-school journalism club with children in the Gurnos, in primary school. We heard so much about, ‘Our voices don’t get heard; nobody cares about us.’ So, I thought, right, well, let’s start with education. So, I went into two schools, Pantysgallog and Gwaunfarren primary, an hour and a half after school, once a week, for 10 weeks. I started off with ‘What is news?’—‘What is news?’, ‘Is this news—a dolphin swims in the sea; a chicken lays a large egg?’, and got them really thinking about what is news, and where do they get news, then what news is important to their community, and I was astounded. These were six to eight-year-olds saying that graffiti, dog mess, littering, lack of bins and fly-tipping, that’s what was important to them.
[119] Suzy Davies: Lack of bins. For a six-year-old, that’s good.
[120] Ms Meese: If I’d have asked my son, in Cardiff, ‘What issues are in your community?’, he certainly wouldn’t come up with those as issues. So, then we went on to, ‘Who do you want to interview?’, that kind of stuff, and we got Jake Castle from Keep Wales Tidy in, taught them how to use digital devices for good, how to get their voices heard—so, how to film and create video content. So, how to film, and you can see this: there’s a website called northmerthyrvoice.co.uk, and it’s educating them on what’s important. I can’t remember why I came on to Merthyr in the first place now, but—
[121] Suzy Davies: That’s all right.
[122] Ms Meese: Oh, that’s it, so, when I was there—
[123] Suzy Davies: The Chair’s glowering at me slightly here.
[124] Bethan Jenkins: No, I’m not.
[125] Ms Meese: No, I got onto it—. Right, I’ve got back to my thread. Because it was at the time of Brexit and the referendum. So, one journalism club was on the day before the referendum, and we started—. Because parents had to come along. We were tackling digital literacy and all sorts of things, so you had to have a parent or guardian with you in the after-school club, so the parents were learning as well. We were asking about the referendum, and, honestly, at one point I crawled under the table with my hands over my ears and just said, ‘I’m not coming out until you stop’, because they were chanting ‘out, out out’, and then we were trying to go back to, well, ‘How have you come to this decision?’ And how they’d made their decision regarding how they were going to vote on Brexit was phenomenal. I’m not even going to go into it, but that’s why it’s important. People in communities are making decisions that are going to have such far-reaching implications for generations to come, and how are they finding out how to make an informed decision? We’ve got a general election—how do they know who to vote for? How do they know how that’s going to impact on their community?
[126] Bethan Jenkins: You have to give us some idea as to where they were getting their information.
[127] Ms Meese: Facebook.
[128] Suzy Davies: [Inaudible.]—social media on anything to do with politics.
[129] Ms Meese: Yes, Facebook. I said, ‘Why are you chanting “out”?’ and they said, ‘Well, we give all our money to David Cameron’—most of the parents didn’t work—‘We give all our money to David Cameron, he gives it all to the immigrants, and therefore we want out, so we want our money back. Out, out, out’, and they started chanting. They got it on Facebook, they got it from the Daily Mail, they got it from The Sun. You know, so how would you—
[130] Dr Williams: Which speaks to some of the problems we’ve been treading around already today, doesn’t it?
[131] Ms Meese: Yes, so, if they haven’t got anywhere else to go, they’re going to go to the places where they can get news and information. So, we have to make sure that we get news and information that’s relevant and important in front of them. There are the echo chambers. I could talk for hours on the echo chambers and the filter bubbles on social media, and there is a real want and a need. These children absolutely loved it, and now we’re working with the 3Gs Development Trust, which is an organisation that works with people in the area to work with the men’s clubs: that they take over North Merthyr Voice and that they start running it. It’s about giving them the opportunity to have their say as well. So, if they do feel strongly about something, where do they go? Where’s their local reporter? How can they say, ‘I feel really strongly about this. There are no bins. They’ve taken all the bins away from Cyfarthfa retail park and there’s dog mess everywhere’? Statistically, we know that these things say so much more about a society. All the research has been done about the correlation between dog mess and depravity in a community. So, actually telling these stories and getting these issues tackled have such a far-reaching impact on a community, but if I’m in the Gurnos and I want to get my voice heard, where do I go?
[132] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Alli di gario ymlaen gyda’r cwestiynau ar yr iaith Gymraeg? A ydyw hynny’n iawn?		Bethan Jenkins: We’ll carry on with questions on the Welsh language, Suzy.
[133] Suzy Davies: Okay. Actually, the information I was referring to earlier comes from Bangor University’s Ifan Morgan Jones, and he’s saying that this is a golden age for Welsh language journalistic publishing, if I can call it that, because of public funding. In his same evidence, he does say that journalists working in the Welsh language still feel under-resourced, however. Have you got any views on which of those two points of view is right?
[134] Dr Williams: What, that they’re under-resourced or the golden age?
[135] Suzy Davies: Well, as I say, in the same piece of evidence he says both those things.
[136] Dr Williams: I think they can be both, can’t they? Because a golden age relative to the travails—
[137] Suzy Davies: Because of public funding.
[138] Dr Williams: —the travails of the English language news media, which don’t enjoy the opportunities for public funding. I think those two things are entirely consistent, really. Relatively speaking, the Welsh language news media have their problems, and the journalists have outlined those over the years very well, but English language media have got even bigger problems at the moment in Wales at a local level.
[139] Suzy Davies: Anything that you can take from the way that Welsh language news is published these days that could be carried across perhaps to the English sector?
[140] Dr Williams: Well, the willingness to provide public subsidy is the main thing that I’d suggest.
[141] Suzy Davies: But then I asked my question earlier on. That area in Welsh—it’s primarily online publishing that’s been subsidised, but some print—is this sort of all-Wales approach even though it’s looking at—
[142] Dr Williams: Yes, sure. That’s the principle I’d point to, and then point to a different area of need in the English language stuff, you know. You don’t only have to look within our borders; you can look outside as well for really fruitful examples of local news being subsidised. Scandinavia always gets cited, I know, and Norway is the perennial example in places like this. At the moment, there’s a debate about whether it should be changed, but they fund printed news from a variety of political perspectives to ensure plural public debate, and they’re looking to whether that should be shifted to online news now, given that print is starting to experience some of the problems that it has experienced for a long time here.
[143] Suzy Davies: To expand this point on plurality, actually, it’s been accepted pretty much that Wales suffers from a lack of plurality at all levels, including the hyperlocal all the way up to the sort of Trinity Mirror publications. Have you got a view on how this—? You’ve been talking about reassessment or re-calibrating how news is published in Wales; have you got any strong views on how we can move on from that lack of plurality?
[144] Dr Williams: Well, given the dire state of the finances in most commercial news organisations, I think I’m with Ifan in suggesting that some kind of public, private or foundation money has got to be key to that. You know, the kinds of things that we’ve been advocating for, really: further experimenting with new ways of delivering local news, some of them involving commercial business models, some of them involving mixtures and some of them involving being incorporated as charities or community interest bodies or community groups. We have to be very imaginative in the range of our responses, because at the moment we know that what’s always worked isn’t working anymore to anywhere near the same extent, but we don’t know what works well in a range of different kinds of geographical place.
[145] Suzy Davies: I agree with you on that. I’m just thinking of Scotland in particular, which is able to have different political perspectives expressed even in its printing because there’s enough of it.
[146] Ms Meese: I think it’s thinking outside the box as well. It’s not just about funding publishers in a particular way; it’s looking at how we can put funding into the sector. So, one of the things we’re looking at is the lack of reporters, local patch reporters as we know the term—the patch reporters are centralised. That’s what the hyperlocals fill, that kind of gap. They are your patch reporter on the ground. However, they’re not getting paid for it, so one of the things we’re looking at is setting up some sort of news agency where they don’t have to do any extra work, because we know for a fact that people are lifting the stories, that these people are working for very little money, and creating money; that they are then lifting those and selling them on and publishing them in other organisations. So, how can we find a way of selling this content on to them, so they don’t have to do any work, and they get money for the work they’re doing already? And, actually, the people who don’t want to pay staff patch reporters, how can we be the bridge in between the content that’s been created already? That would then open the door for more people to come in and say, ‘Well, okay, I’ll do this as a volunteer, as a start-up.’ When I say ‘volunteer’, I mean every start-up. How many start-ups pay themselves a salary from day one? So, that’s what I mean by ‘volunteer’. I’m not talking the sector down at all.
[147] Suzy Davies: Sorry. I know you want to come in.
[148] Ms Meese: It’s thinking outside the box, you know?
[149] Suzy Davies: So you’re talking about a mini Reuters, if you like. That still doesn’t get around the question of plurality, because a mini Reuters will be just one organisation.
[150] Ms Meese: No, it won’t, because the hyperlocals are microbusinesses. So, the people who run Wrexham.com are completely different to the Caerphilly Observer, completely different to My Welshpool and completely different to Port Talbot. So, what you’ve got is almost like a big co-operative of microbusinesses.
[151] Suzy Davies: Right, okay.
[152] Ms Meese: Because the hyperlocals are all individuals who are setting up news publications for a very local area. As I say, looking across the UK, there’s The Edinburgh Reporter, and Phyllis does the whole of Edinburgh. But you bring them all together, and actually you do have plurality of voice because they are from all—
[153] Suzy Davies: But to be realistic, Port Talbot’s not really going to want news content from Wrexham, is it?
[154] Dr Williams: No, but what she’s talking about is the Western Mail—
[155] Ms Meese: It’s the South Wales Evening Post and the Western Mail, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, the BBC. They all lift those stories at the moment and use them and there’s no money going to the journalists who created the content. So, actually, if we put a system in place where they buy from the Press Association and they buy from other news agencies—. We’ve had these early conversations, they’re going, ‘Yeah, we buy from other news agencies. Why wouldn’t we?’ So, effectively create a news agency of local news in Wales, and that’s a way for Assembly Members to get their content out. So, you get to know your local reporter, that gets turned into a story; it’s not just a press release that’s regurgitated as journalism, if you’ll pardon the pun. So, it’s important that we don’t just think about, ‘Do we give money to these? Do we give money to those?’ but that we actually think, ‘How else can we be investing in local journalism in Wales?’
[156] Dr Williams: And it’s investing from the grass roots up.
[157] Ms Meese: Yes.
[158] Dr Williams: From the bottom up. Because we have to build new institutions at a local level for local journalism.
[159] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gennym gwpl o gwestiynau. Rydym ni’n rhedeg mas o amser, sori, so mae gan Dai gwpl o gwestiynau ynglŷn â’r iaith Gymraeg a chyhoeddiadau iaith Gymraeg.		Bethan Jenkins: We have a couple more questions. We’re running out of time, sorry, so Dai has a couple of questions on the Welsh language publications.
[160] Dai Lloyd: Mi wnaf eu crisialu nhw i fod yn un, a dweud y gwir.		Dai Lloyd: It’s just one question, really.
[161] Bethan Jenkins: Iawn. Grêt.		Bethan Jenkins: Right. Great.
[162] Dai Lloyd: Rydych chi wedi sôn am ariannu cyhoeddus, cymhorthdal cyhoeddus i bapurau Cymraeg, cyhoeddiadau Cymraeg. A oes yna berig, wedi cael yr holl agwedd bositif yma, ei fod yn gallu tanseilio annibyniaeth y newyddiadurwyr?		Dai Lloyd: You were talking about public funding and public subsidy for Welsh language publications. Is there a danger, having had all this positivity, that this could undermine the independence of journalism?
[163] Ms Meese: Tanseilio annibyniaeth y newyddiadurwyr? O, ocê. Rydw i’n deall. Wel, mae hynny’n gorfod bod yn rhan o gael yr arian, onid yw e? So, a yw hynny yn golygu na fydd papurau newydd lleol sy’n cael arian o’r Llywodraeth yn gwneud straeon negyddol am y Llywodraeth? Na, dyw e ddim. Beth sy’n digwydd yn lleol, un o’r problemau y maen nhw’n eu cael yw os ydyn nhw’n derbyn hysbysebion o fusnesau lleol ac yna mae yna rywbeth negyddol am y busnes yna. So mae hynny yn rhywbeth, rwy’n credu—. Dim ond ein bod ni’n ymwybodol o hynny, ac mae potensial o hynny i unrhyw un sy’n cyhoeddi newyddion. Felly, fyddwn i ddim yn poeni yn ormodol am hynny.		Ms Meese: Undermining the independence of journalists? Oh, I see what you mean. It has to be a condition of the funding, doesn’t it? Does that mean that local newspapers that receive Government funding aren’t covering negative stories on the Government? No, not at all. What happens at a local level, one of the problems that they have is if they take advertisements from local businesses and there’s something negative to cover on that local business—that’s a problem. I think that as long as we are aware that that is a possibility, and that’s a possibility for anyone who publishes news. So, I wouldn’t be overly concerned about it.
[164] Dai Lloyd: Grêt.		Dai Lloyd: Great.
[165] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gennyf gwestiwn ynglŷn â’r BBC, a newyddiaduriaeth leol y system honno. Rydych chi wedi dweud yn gynharach eich bod chi ar y bwrdd BBC lleol, ac wedyn roedd Andy yn dweud y dylai’r arian ar gyfer y cysyniad newydd yma sydd yn cael ei dreialu fod yn rhan o bot ehangach o arian.		Bethan Jenkins: I do have a question on the BBC, and local journalism with them. You said earlier that you are on the board of BBC local, and then Andy said that funding for this new concept that’s being trialled should be part of a broader pot of funding.
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[166] Oeddech chi wedi codi hyn gyda’r BBC, pan roedden nhw’n rolio hwn mas, ac a oes gennych chi gonsýrn efallai y byddai newyddiaduriaeth papurau yn tynnu adnoddau oddi ar yr hyn y maen nhw’n ei wneud yn barod, oherwydd eu bod nhw’n gweld bod y BBC efallai yn cael ei weld yn sybsideiddio eu diwydiant nhw? Andy, rwy’n gwybod eich bod chi eisiau ymateb.		Did you raise this at all with the BBC when they were rolling this out, and do you have any concerns that perhaps newspapers may withdraw resources from what they’re doing now because they see that the BBC is perhaps subsidising their industry? Andy, I know that you’re interested in this.
[167] Dr Williams: Just to clarify the context in which I was using that example earlier, it was just as an example to prove the point really that it’s not North Korea when you start talking about subsidies for local news, and it’s happened, and that sometimes when it’s happened in the past, it’s happened for the wrong reasons, in the wrong places, for the wrong audience. I don’t think that anything should be done about that, it’s done now, it’s in the past, but when we do things like that in the future, we should learn from those lessons. I think that, broadly speaking, it will probably be beneficial. There is a danger that is starts to be seen by some of the big news publishers as something that they can factor in, and therefore make more cuts to—
[168] Bethan Jenkins: But, is it the BBC’s role, which is what I’m trying to get at? For me, I’ve got a personal opinion that I don’t see that it is, but I think public subsidy is different, but the BBC directly putting money in—
[169] Dr Williams: I’m really ambivalent personally.
[170] Ms Meese: I’ve been sitting on the board—
[171] Dr Williams: Can I just quickly comment, and then, you, because you’ve been much more closely involved in this?
[172] Bethan Jenkins: We haven’t got much time.
[173] Dr Williams: Sorry. I’ve got worries like you, but I think that the challenges that we face at a local level are so marked now that we just need to do something about it. So, I’m less worried about top-slicing than I would have been five or 10 years ago.
[174] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Fine. Emma.
[175] Ms Meese: So, I’ve been sitting on the board and, again, because we didn’t have ICNN, I was fighting the cause without being a formal representative of the sector. But these issues have all been raised there, because they’re saying—. PA newswire said that there’s cause for concern because they’re saying, ‘Well, this is our bread and butter, so if you’re going to be covering this, what happens to our business?’ and there was lots of back slapping and things going on. They categorically have to be new jobs, and they can’t be somebody that was doing a job already. They have to be a new post for somebody that covers a specific role, and that is to cover local council meetings. But even if you’re employed by that organisation, that organisation doesn’t have any control over what that reporter does. So, as a hyperlocal, if I employed a local democracy reporter, I can’t tell them, ‘I want you to go to this council meeting today, and I want you to report on this, and then you come back and give me the story.’ You, basically, are almost just like a host.
[176] So, what they do is they just come back and it’s basically like a newswire of local council meetings and public bodies, and the local democracy reporter puts that into a system and presses ‘send’ and ‘publish’. And, in theory—we know this isn’t going to happen, because, obviously, if you’re sitting in the same office as somebody, you’re going to know what they’re working on—but in theory, that host publisher is not supposed to get that story before anybody else. It goes out, a button’s pressed, and that all goes out at the same time.
[177] So, all the concerns that have been raised there, they’ve said, ‘Well, you know, we’re a team of journalists at the end of the day’ and if they think that somebody else is cheating the system, then report them to the BBC and they’ll be cut out of the system. And the whole purpose was that the BBC wanted to give the best value to the licence fee payer, and recognised that nobody was covering local council meetings and things as they should be, or as they used to do. If you look at how many people, reporters, actually sit in the Senedd now compared to how many used to.
[178] So, it’s creating that network to make sure that, wherever they read it, whether it’s on the BBC, or from their local paper, or their hyperlocal—. But the issue we had originally was that it was weighted towards that you could only access the pot of money, you could only access a local reporter, and you could only access the content coming out if you matched a set of criteria, and they were very much weighted towards traditional local newspapers. So, we’ve worked really hard to ensure that the doors are open much wider, and that a number of hyperlocals now can access that news and information, because if the aim actually is to tackle the democratic deficit, and to get your news and information out to as many licence fee payers as possible, then, surely, you want to make sure that as many people publish the content as possible, and not just the usual suspects.
[179] So that’s partly why we’ve got ICNN up and running so quickly is because the BBC were saying, ‘We can only give BBC content to reputable and quality publishers.’ What is a reputable and quality publisher? So, we’ve been working with them, and actually our members will adhere to the editor’s code of practice, they have a robust complaints procedure, and they have access to legal support, and that’s satisfied the BBC that, as a member, they are reputable and quality publishers. So, that means a lot more people across the sector have access to that information. So, it’s work like that that’s ongoing that we find that we have to battle all the time. Otherwise, that would have happened and our part of the sector would have been completely excluded from that. But, I have to say, they’ve been really—. They’ve come as far as they can to meet us in the middle—not quite as far as we would have wanted, but we understand the BBC’s got its constraints as well. That’s why we’re really pleased that you’ve asked us here to speak today. We’d like conversations to be ongoing on what we can do to help ensure that we have a level playing field.
[180] Bethan Jenkins: I don’t know if you can answer this quickly. We’ve asked the BBC and S4C previously about what they would want in terms of additional funding if they were offered it—
[181] Ms Meese: ‘As much as you can give’ is the short answer.
[182] Bethan Jenkins: Yes, so is there any recommendation we could make on how much would be the baseline for setting something up with public money? What would be that—
[183] Dr Williams: What, a competitive fund of the nature that we’ve been talking about—or something else or what?
[184] Bethan Jenkins: From public funding, especially. You’ve mentioned Newsquest, and you don’t know where the money came from. If you could apply to the Government for specific funding, what would be the minimum level by which you could operate? Just so that we have a figure.
[185] Dr Williams: Yes, sure. I can supply a figure.
[186] Bethan Jenkins: You can send us back—brilliant. It would just help me—
[187] Dr Williams: I’ll supply a figure based on a look at similar kinds of ones that have been operated recently. No problem. I don’t have those figures to hand at the moment.
[188] Bethan Jenkins: That’s fine. If you write in to us, it just helps me to see where you would potentially need to look at it.
[189] Dr Williams: Absolutely, and it might be a pleasant surprise, because, as I said before, a little money can go quite a long way for these things.
[190] Bethan Jenkins: Yes, definitely. Thank you both.
[191] Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi’ch dau am ddod i mewn heddiw, a diolch am y wybodaeth gynhwysfawr rydych chi wedi ei rhoi inni. Fe fyddem ni’n croesawu gallu dod nôl atoch chi am fwy o wybodaeth yn y dyfodol hefyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn heddiw.		Thank you both for attending today, and thank you for the comprehensive information you’ve provided. We would welcome coming back to you for more information in the future. Thank you very much for coming in today.
[192] Dr Williams: Thank you.
[193] Ms Meese: Diolch yn fawr. Diolch am y cynnig.		Ms Meese: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.
[194] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen yn syth at eitem 3, sef y panel ar newyddion trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—a ydych chi eisiau cael brêc yn glou? Dwy funud o frêc.		Bethan Jenkins: We now move on straight away to item 3, which is a panel on news through the medium of Welsh—would you like a quick break? Two minutes of break.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:37 a 10:43. The meeting adjourned between 10:37 and 10:43.
Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 2 News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 2
[195] Bethan Jenkins: [Anghlywadwy.]—yma heddiw: newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru, sesiwn dystiolaeth 2. Rydym yn croesawu Dylan Iorwerth, sef golygydd-gyfarwyddwr Golwg, a hefyd Robert Rhys, cadeirydd Barn. Diolch i chi’ch dau am ddod i mewn atom heddiw.		Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]—here today: evidence session 2 on news journalism in Wales. We welcome Dylan Iorwerth, editorial director of Golwg, and also Robert Rhys, chair of Barn. Thank you to you both for coming in today.
[196] Rydym wedi clywed yn barod asesiad gan Emma Meese a Dr Andy Williams am y sefyllfa yng Nghymru. Maen nhw’n dweud nad yw’n wahanol i’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yng ngweddill Prydain a nifer o wledydd eraill yn y byd. A allwch chi esbonio sefyllfa newyddiaduraeth trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? A ydych yn credu, fel y mae rhai yn dweud, ei fod mewn sefyllfa well ar hyn o bryd na newyddiaduraeth trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg? Beth fyddech chi’n ei  ddweud yn hynny o beth? Diolch.		We’ve heard already the assessment by Emma Meese and Dr Andy Williams of the situation in Wales. They say that it’s no different to what is happening in the rest of Britain and other countries of the world. Can you explain the situation of Welsh language journalism? Do you think, as some say, that it’s in a better position at the moment than journalism through the medium of English? What would you say in response to that? Thank you.
[197] Mr Iorwerth: Rwy’n meddwl mai cymharol ydy geiriau fel yna. O ystyried fod y wasg Gymraeg yn dechrau o le llawer iawn, iawn gwannach yn y lle cyntaf, ydy, mae’r wasg Gymraeg—mae yna rai pethau gobeithiol, ond mae’r un bygythiadau yn union i’r wasg Gymraeg ag i’r wasg yn Saesneg. Ond, nid oes llawer o wasg Cymraeg yn y lle cyntaf.		Mr Iorwerth: I think such words are relative. Given that the Welsh language press is starting from a far weaker position in the first place, then, yes, there are some hopeful signs for the Welsh language press, but the same threats exist for the Welsh language press as for English. But, there isn’t much Welsh press in the first place.
10:45
[198] Fe ddylwn i nodi hefyd fy mod i, yn ogystal â bod yn olygydd-gyfarwyddwr Golwg, yn olygydd-gyfarwyddwr Golwg360, sef y gwasanaeth ar-lein. Rwy’n meddwl, beth bynnag rydym ni’n ei drafod heddiw, bod y berthynas efo pethau ar-lein yn allweddol.		I should note that, as well as being editorial director of Golwg, I’m also editorial director of Golwg360, which is the online version. Whatever we discuss today, I think we need to emphasise that the relationship with online material is crucial.
[199] Felly, yn fy marn i, o ran y wasg brint Gymraeg, os yw’n wir y bydd Y Cymro yn dod i ben ymhen mis, mi fydd gennych chi un cylchgrawn neu bapur newydd cenedlaethol wythnosol, sef Golwg, ac mi fydd gennych chi gyfnodolion, fel Barn ac yn y blaen. Mae’r cylchrediad yn gymharol isel—yn amlwg wedi bod ers blynyddoedd, nid oes yna ddim byd newydd yn hynny.		So, from my point of view, in terms of the Welsh language print media, if it’s true that Y Cymro is to cease to exist in a month’s time, you will have one weekly national magazine or newspaper, namely Golwg, and you will have periodicals such as Barn and so on. The circulation is relatively low—has been over many years, there’s nothing new there.
[200] Mae’r wasg Gymraeg, i mi, yn adlewyrchu beth ydy cyflwr yr iaith yn fwy cyffredinol. Mae wastad wedi gwneud hynny ac mae’n sicr yn gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd, lle y mae yna frwydr barhaus i gael pobl i ddarllen Cymraeg ac i ddefnyddio Cymraeg yn eu bywydau bob dydd.		The Welsh language press, to me, reflects the condition of the Welsh language more generally. It always has done that and certainly does so now, where there is an ongoing battle to get people to read Welsh and to use Welsh in their daily lives.
[201] Ac o ran diddordeb, rydw i yn ystyried mai ein cystadleuaeth ni, yn arbennig ar ochr Golwg360, ond Golwg hefyd, ydy’r BBC, Media Wales, Daily Mail. Achos mae gan bobl hyn a hyn o arian i’w wario. Mae pawb sy’n darllen Golwg neu Golwg360 hefyd yn gallu dewis prynu pethau yn Saesneg. Felly, nid ydw i’n meddwl y dylem ni ynysu cyhoeddiadau Cymraeg a’u rhoi nhw ar wahân. Rydym ni’n cystadlu yn erbyn pob un cyfrwng arall.		Just as a point of interest, I see that the main competition for us, particularly for Golwg360, but also Golwg, is the BBC, Media Wales, Daily Mail. Because people only have so much money to spend. Everyone who reads Golwg or Golwg360 can also purchase English language material. So, I don’t think we should isolate Welsh language publications. We are competing against every other media.
[202] Yr un peth arall y buaswn i’n hoff iawn o gael y cyfle i’w drafod ydy'r farchnad ei hun—y pethau sy’n effeithio ar sut y mae modd gwerthu papur newydd ym mha bynnag iaith. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna newidiadau anferth yn digwydd o ran hynny hefyd.		The only other thing that I would like to raise here now is the market itself—the things that impact on how you can sell a newspaper in whatever language it is. I think there are huge changes in that regard too.
[203] Bethan Jenkins: Robert.
[204] Mr Rhys: Un o’r pethau cadarnhaol y byddwn i’n ei ddweud yw: fe fu yna fuddsoddiad 30 mlynedd yn ôl gan gyngor y celfyddydau a arweiniodd at sefydlu Golwg a buddsoddi pellach yn Barn. Mae hynny wedi’i gynnal—mae’r cylchgronau hynny wedi dal eu tir.		Mr Rhys: One of the positive things I would say is that there was an investment 30 years ago by the arts council that led to the establishing of Golwg and further investment in Barn. That has been maintained—those magazines have continued.
[205] Nid yw ein gwerthiant ni wedi dirywio. Mae wedi bod yn weddol gyson dros y cyfnod yna. Rwy’n cael yr argraff ein bod ni’n cyrraedd canran o’r gynulleidfa sy’n cymharu’n ffafriol iawn â chyfnodolion Saesneg sy’n derbyn nawdd y cyngor llyfrau, er enghraifft.		The selling of our publication hasn’t declined. It has been consistent over that period. I have the impression that we’re reaching a percentage of the audience that compares favourably with English periodicals that receive sponsorship from the books council, for example.
[206] Mae ein rôl ni ychydig yn wahanol. Rŷm ni’n sylwebu, rŷm ni’n dehongli, rŷm ni’n mynegi barn ac, rŷm ni’n teimlo, yn chwarae rôl bwysig ym mywyd cyhoeddus, deallusol a diwylliannol Cymru. Ac er efallai bod y gŵyn yn cael ei gwneud nad oes yna arian i gyflogi newyddiadurwyr ymchwil, mae ymchwil academaidd—fel academydd, rwy’n credu bod hwnnw’n air cadarnhaol—mae ymchwil academaidd yn bwydo cylchgronau fel Barn.		Our role is slightly different. We are commentators, we analyse, we give a view, and, we feel, we play an important role in the public, intellectual and cultural life of Wales. And even though perhaps there’s a complaint that there is no money to employ investigative journalists, academic research—as an academic, I think that is a positive word—academic research feeds into magazines such as Barn.
[207] Mae pobl sydd wrth eu gwaith bob dydd, efallai’n ddarlithwyr prifysgol sy’n ymchwilio, yn rhannu’r ymchwil mewn ffordd hygyrch, agored gyda’r darllenwyr, ac mae’n dod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth gyhoeddus ac efallai’n ysgogi symudiadau pellach.		People who are perhaps university lecturers share their research in an open, accessible way with readers, and that becomes part of the public discussion and perhaps inspires further movement.
[208] Rhag ofn i mi anghofio dweud yn ddiweddarach, un peth y byddwn i yn ei ddweud yw: ein profiad ni yw nad yw’r symudiad tuag at y digidol yn digwydd ar unrhyw raddfa ystyrlon yn achos Barn. Mae hi fel pe bai pobl yn deyrngar i gylchgrawn print, yn hoffi’r arteffact, a hyd yn oed yn deyrngar i brynu’r cylchgrawn mewn siop leol yn hytrach na thanysgrifio, er bod hynny’n costio iddyn nhw.		In case I forget to say later, one thing I would say is that our experience is that this move towards the digital era is not happening in any meaningful way with Barn. People are very loyal to the print magazine, they like the artefact, and they’re also loyal to buying the periodical in a local shop rather than subscribing—even though that costs them.
[209] Felly, er ein bod ni wedi rhagweld symudiad mawr i’r digidol, ac er ein bod ni wedi darparu ar ei gyfer drwy roi’r cylchgrawn ar y wefan a’i gwneud yn bosibl i bobl danysgrifio i’r cylchgrawn ar y we yn unig, araf iawn, iawn yr ydym ni’n gweld unrhyw fath o newid i’r patrwm.		So, even though we have seen a big move to digitisation, and even though we’ve provided for it by putting the magazine on the website and making it possible for people to subscribe to the magazine on the internet only, we’re seeing the change in the pattern very, very slowly.
[210] Bethan Jenkins: Beth yw eich barn chi ynglŷn â phlwraliaeth o ran y Gymraeg? A ydych chi’n credu bod yna ddiffyg dros Gymru? Yn amlwg, mae Golwg360, o ran ar-lein, yn gwasgaru newyddion am Gymru gyfan, ond nid oes cystadleuaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg arall. Rwy’n gwybod beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud o ran yr iaith Saesneg—eich bod chi’n cystadlu yn fanna—ond, a fyddai cystadleuaeth i Golwg360, er enghraifft, yn rhywbeth y byddech chi’n ei groesawu, neu a ydych chi’n credu, ar hyn o bryd, na fyddai hynny yn rhywbeth a fyddai’n gweithio yma yng Nghymru?		Bethan Jenkins: What’s your view on plurality in terms of the Welsh language? Do you think that there is a problem in that regard? Clearly, Golwg360 is available online and distributes news about the whole of Wales, but there is no competition in terms of Welsh-medium output. I know what you said about English output—that you’re competing with that too—but, would having some competition for Golwg360 be something that you would welcome, or do you believe, at the moment, that that wouldn’t work here in Wales?
[211] Mr Iorwerth: Wel, mae gennym ni gystadleuaeth i Golwg360, sef BBC Cymru Fyw. Ond, ar wahân i’r BBC, nid oes neb arall yn gwneud newyddion drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—newyddion, felly, yn hytrach na materion cyfoes a sylwebaeth. Felly, yn amlwg, mae yna ddiffyg mawr.		Mr Iorwerth: Well, we do have competition for Golwg360, which is BBC Cymru Fyw. But, apart from the BBC, there is nobody else doing news through the medium of Welsh—news, that is, rather than current affairs and commentary. So, clearly there is a great deficit.
[212] Mae’n siom i mi na fuasai Y Cymro wedi gallu datblygu yn bapur poblogaidd gwirioneddol, achos dyna a fuasai’n help. Fe fuasai’n help i gylchgrawn Golwg, ac rwy’n siŵr y buasai’n help i cylchgrawn fel Barn. Achos rŷch chi angen amrywiaeth ac rŷch chi angen cyfryngau sy’n tynnu pobl i fewn i ddarllen a fydd wedyn, o bosib, yn symud ymlaen i ddarllen pethau gwahanol. Hynny yw, ni fedr cylchgrawn fel Golwg fod yn rhoi sylwebaeth, mynd ar ôl straeon dwysach a materion cyfoes a thrio bod yn bapur tabloid—ni allwch chi ddim gwneud y ddau beth. Felly, mewn ateb i’ch cwestiwn chi, rydych chi angen y ddau beth ac rydych chi eu hangen nhw ar wahân, ac mae’r naill yn gallu bwydo i ryw raddau oddi ar y llall. Ond, nid yw hynny wedi digwydd ac nid oes arwydd o gwbl ei fod am ddigwydd.		It is a disappointment to me that Y Cymro couldn’t have developed into a truly popular paper, because that would have been of assistance. It would have been of assistance to Golwg magazine, and also to a periodical such as Barn. Because you do need variety and you do need media that pull people in and draw people in to read, who would then, perhaps, move on to read different things. A magazine such as Golwg cannot provide commentary and go after stories that are more intensive with regard to current affairs and try to be a tabloid paper—you can’t do both. So, in answer to your question, you need both and you need them separately, and one can feed into the other, to some extent. But, it hasn’t happened and there’s no sign that it is going to happen.
[213] Bellach, buaswn yn dweud ei bod hi’n rhy hwyr i feddwl am bapur newydd print poblogaidd. I fi, mae dyfodol newyddion y funud a newyddion sy’n troi bob dydd—mae’r dyfodol ar ryw fath o sgrin, pa bynnag fath o sgrin ydy hi neu y bydd hi. Ond, mae yna le, fel y mae Robert yn ei awgrymu, i bethau eraill mewn print, ac mae yna rai pethau sy’n gweithio’n well mewn print—mae’n well gan bobl eu darllen nhw mewn print—ac mae hynny’n dal i fod.		I think I would say that it is, perhaps, too late to think of a popular print newspaper. To me, the future of current news and news that is constantly evolving is on a screen, whatever sort of screen that would be. But, there is room, as Robert suggested, for other things in print, and there are some things that work better in print—people prefer to read them in print—and that remains the case.
[214] Y gamp fawr i ni ar hyn o bryd, i rywun fel Golwg, ydy bod gennym ni gynulleidfa ifanc sydd eisiau pethau ar y we ac mae yna gynulleidfa hŷn sydd eisiau pethau mewn print, ac mae trio cadw’r ddau beth i fynd ar yr un pryd yn anodd.		The biggest challenge for us, for somebody at Golwg at the moment, is that we have a young audience that wants things on the internet and there is an older audience that wants things in print, and trying to keep both going at the same time is difficult.
[215] Bethan Jenkins: A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar hynny?		Bethan Jenkins: Any comment on that?
[216] Mr Rhys: Dim ond i ddweud bod colofnau Cymraeg mewn papurau Saesneg hefyd yn cynnig rywfaint o amrywiaeth, onid ydyn nhw? Mae yna golofnau barn yn y Western Mail, er enghraifft. Ond, tuedd y deunydd Cymraeg mewn papurau lleol Saesneg, hyd y gwelaf fi, yw bod yn ddatganiadau i’r wasg gan wahanol gyrff.		Mr Rhys: Just to say that Welsh language columns in English publications do offer some plurality. There are opinion pieces in the Western Mail, for example. But, the tendency with Welsh-medium output in English-medium local papers is that they are press releases from various organisations.
[217] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Mae gan Suzy ragor o gwestiynau nawr ar y mater yma.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy now has some further questions on this issue.
[218] Suzy Davies: Beth ydych chi’n meddwl am sylwadau Ifan Morgan Jones, sy’n dweud bod		Suzy Davies: What do you think about the comments of Ifan Morgan Jones, who said that
[219] ‘perceived resource limitations mean that Welsh-language journalists are sceptical of their own effectiveness’
[220] wrth graffu ar y gwleidyddion a phawb arall? A ydy hynny’n deg?		at holding politicians to account—and other people, really? Is that fair?
[221] Mr Iorwerth: Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr beth y mae’n ei feddwl wrth amau ein heffeithiolrwydd ein hunain, ond yn amlwg mae adnoddau yn ffactor fawr mewn unrhyw newyddiaduraeth. Os ydych chi eisiau gwneud newyddiaduraeth ymchwil, mae’n rhaid i chi roi amser at wneud hynny. Mae’n rhaid ichi hefyd fod yn barod i dreulio tair neu bedair wythnos yn gwneud stori a dim byd yn dod ohoni yn y diwedd. Yn ein sefyllfa ni, er enghraifft, ni allwn ni jest ddim fforddio hynny. Ni allwn ni ddweud, ‘Wel, sori, dim ond 24 tudalen sydd yn Golwg wythnos yma achos mi fethon ni wneud stori’—ni allwch chi ddim gwneud hynny. Felly, mae’n rhaid ichi gynnal y peth bara menyn, a thrio creu’r cyfle i wneud y straeon ymchwil. Felly, os mai dyna sydd gan Ifan dan sylw, byddwn ni eisiau gwneud llawer iawn, iawn yn fwy—dyna’n union beth y byddwn ni’n licio gallu ei wneud.		Mr Iorwerth: I’m not exactly sure what he means by those comments. Clearly, resources are a huge factor in any sort of journalism. If you want to carry out investigate journalism, you need time to do that. You must also be willing to spend three or four weeks working on a story and nothing emerges from it, ultimately. In our position, we simply can’t afford that. We can’t say, ‘Well, sorry, we’ve only got 24 pages in Golwg this week because we failed with a story’. So, you have to maintain the bread-and-butter output and try to create those opportunities for the investigative work. So, if that’s what Ifan was referring to, then of course we’d like to do a great deal more—that’s exactly what we want to do.
[222] Rwy’n meddwl ein bod ni’n gallu bod yn effeithiol o ran gosod agenda ac yn y blaen, ac mae yna gyfryngau eraill yn ein dilyn ni, er enghraifft, weithiau, os ydym ni’n gallu codi pwnc yn effeithiol ac yn y blaen. Rwy’n gobeithio bod gwleidyddion yn darllen beth rydym ni’n ei gynhyrchu. Ond, mae adnoddau’n bownd o fod yn broblem. Mae’r ffigurau rydych chi wedi’u cael gan bobl eraill yn dangos cyn lleied o newyddiadurwyr sydd yna rŵan yn gyffredinol o’i gymharu â 10 mlynedd yn ôl, dywedwch. Mae hynny jest yn dangos beth ydy rhan o’r broblem. Unwaith rydych chi’n dechrau torri’r adnoddau newyddiadurol, rydych chi’n torri’r effeithiolrwydd i fynd ar ôl y straeon gwirioneddol bwysig.		I think we can be effective in terms of setting the agenda and so on, and other media follow us, occasionally, if we can raise issues effectively. I would hope that politicians do read our output. But, resources are bound to be a problem. The figures that you’ve received from others show how few journalists there are now, generally speaking, as compared to the situation 10 years ago, say. That just shows what the problem is. Once you start to cut the journalistic resources, then you actually have an impact on your efficiency in going after those important stories.
[223] Mr Rhys: Un gŵyn yr wyf i wedi’i dderbyn gan un o’n prif gyfranwyr rheolaidd ni yw nad yw’r cyfryngau eraill yng Nghymru—y cyfryngau radio a theledu—ddim yn dilyn straeon sy’n cael eu cyhoeddi yn Barn, neu erthygl sy’n ffrwyth ymchwil academaidd yn ymddangos yn Barn—mae’n dod â chanlyniadau newydd a chanfyddiadau newydd, ac wedyn nid oes ymateb, ac efallai y byddai wedi disgwyl y byddai rhaglen radio neu deledu wedi mynd ar ôl hyn. Mae e wedi gwneud y pwynt: os yw e’n cyhoeddi rhywbeth tebyg yn The Guardian, maen nhw ar ei ôl e’n syth—y cyfryngau Cymraeg yw’r rhain. Felly, rwy’n siŵr y gallwn ni wneud mwy i hyrwyddo’r deunydd sydd gyda ni, i baratoi datganiadau manylach i’r wasg ac yn y blaen, ond dyna’i ganfyddiad ef, felly: y gallai’r cyfryngau eraill wneud mwy i fynd ar ôl safbwyntiau. Nid ydym yn clywed yn aml ar Radio Cymru, ‘Mewn erthygl yng nghylchgrawn Barn y mis hwn’. Dylai hynny ddigwydd yn amlach.		Mr Rhys: One complaint that I’ve received from one of our regular contributors is that the other media in Wales—radio and television—don’t follow stories that have been published in Barn or articles in Barn that come out of academic research—it is in Barn and it brings results but there is no response. Perhaps he would’ve expected a radio programme or television programme to have gone after this. He has made the point that when he does publish something similar in The Guardian, they’re after it straight away—this is the Welsh media. So, I’m sure that we could do more to promote the material that we’ve got, to prepare press releases and so forth, but that is his perception: that other media could do more to go after these perspectives. We don’t hear very often on Radio Cymru, ‘In an article in Barn this month’. That should happen more regularly.
[224] Suzy Davies: Fel y dywedais i, mae yn digwydd weithiau, achos rwyf wedi bod ar O’r Bae, er enghraifft, ac rwyf wedi siarad am rywbeth sydd wedi bod yn Barn yr wythnos gynt. Os oes yna broblem gydag adnoddau yn gyffredinol, rwy’n siŵr y bydd yna broblem i’r cyfryngau Cymraeg fod yn rhan o unrhyw system i helpu darganfod beth sy’n digwydd yn lleol, lleol. A ydych chi’n edrych o gwbl ar beth yw’r drafodaeth yn y sector Saesneg ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â sut i wneud sefydliadau hyperlocal yn fwy effeithiol a gweithio gyda’i gilydd lot yn well i gadarnhau’r sector?		Suzy Davies: As I said, it does happen occasionally. I’ve been on O’r Bae discussing an article in Barn. But, if there is a problem with resources generally, then surely there will be a problem for the Welsh media to be part of any system to find out what’s happening at a hyperlocal level. Are you looking at the discussion in the English sector at present in terms of how we can make hyperlocal news effective and how we can collaborate more in order to firm up the sector?
[225] Mr Iorwerth: Rydw i wedi bod yn pregethu ers ryw 10 mlynedd rŵan fod eisiau inni fod yn gwneud pethau o ran y lleol iawn. Rydym ni wedi trio sawl tro i gael cymorth ariannol i allu dechrau rhywbeth. Fel mae’n digwydd, rydym ni yn y broses ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni wedi mynd trwy’r cam cyntaf o drio cael grant trwy’r cynllun datblygu gwledig i weithio efo papurau bro ar brosiect peilot. Yn y cyfamser—		Mr Iorwerth: I have been preaching for about 10 years now that we should be doing things in terms of the hyperlocal. We have tried on many an occasion to have financial assistance to start something. As it happens, we’re in the process at the moment. We’ve gone through the first step of trying to get a grant through the rural development scheme to work with papurau bro on a pilot project. In the meantime—
[226] Suzy Davies: Sori, a allaf i neidio i mewn? Ynglŷn â phapurau bro, wrth gwrs, mae yna rywbeth pendant: mae yna jest births, marriages and deaths math o bethau. Nid newyddion lleol yw hynny ond gwybodaeth leol, os cawn ni ddweud. Nid ydym ni’n gweld lot o bethau o safbwynt craffu yn y papurau bro.		Suzy Davies: Sorry, can I just jump in there? In terms of papurau bro, there is something specific: births, marriages and deaths. It’s not local news. It’s more local information, if we can say that. You don’t see much in terms of scrutiny in the papurau bro.
[227] Mr Iorwerth: Rydw i’n siŵr y gallem ni gael trafodaeth athronyddol diddorol iawn ynglŷn â’r gwahaniaeth rhwng gwybodaeth a newyddion, ond o beth rydw i’n ei ddeall, o rai o’r pethau hyperlocal yn Saesneg hefyd, dyna fyddai llawer iawn o’r math yna o wybodaeth hefyd. Ond na, yr union bwynt sydd gennym ni yw ein bod ni eisiau trio cydweithio rhwng Golwg360 a phapurau bro. Dyna fuasai ein breuddwyd ni. Bydd rhaid i’r papurau bro gytuno i gydweithio, ond dyma fuasai ein breuddwyd ni: ein bod ni’n ganolog yn genedlaethol yn gallu cydweithio â phapurau bro fel bod yna ffrwd o newyddion cenedlaethol perthnasol i’w hardaloedd nhw’n gallu ymddangos ar wefannau lleol ac yn y blaen.		Mr Iorwerth: I’m sure we could have a very interesting philosophical debate on the difference between information and news, but from my understanding, in terms of some of the hyperlocals in English, that’s the kind of information that they publish too. But the exact point I was trying to make is that we want to collaborate between Golwg360 and papurau bro. That would be our dream. The papurau bro would have to agree to collaborate, but that would be our dream: that we, centrally at a national level, could work with the papurau bro so that there is a stream of national news that is relevant to their areas that could appear on local websites and so on.
[228] Yr eironi ydy ein bod ni yng Nghymru’n gwybod sut i wneud hyperlocal, achos rydym ni wedi bod yn ei wneud e ers 1974 pan lansiwyd y papur bro cyntaf. Rydym ni hefyd yn gwybod pam bod eisiau hyperlocal. Rydym ni wedi bod mewn cynadleddau rhyngwladol lle mae pobl wedi bod yn trafod ‘Wel, beth ydy hyperlocal? Pam mae angen hyperlocal?’ Wel, rydym ni’n gwybod pam. Dyna pam sefydlwyd y papurau bro: er mwyn hyrwyddo bywyd cymunedol, sy’n cynnwys newyddion, wth reswm. Ond y gobaith ydy trwy gydweithio—. Mae’n anodd iawn i bapurau bro symud ymlaen ar eu pennau eu hunain, a byddan nhw’n ei wneud o ar wahanol lefelau. Mae yna wahanol raddau o wybodaeth gan wahanol bobol. Mae llawer iawn o’r bobl sy’n rhedeg papurau bro yn heneiddio, ac nid bod ganddynt ddim diddordeb, ond nid ydyn nhw’n cymryd at y cyfryngau newydd yn naturiol. Felly, yn amlwg mae angen cymorth. Ond trwy gydweithio, beth fuasech chi yn gobeithio yw y buasech chi’n gallu dod ag elfen o’r newyddion caletach i mewn i’r gwefannau lleol iawn, iawn yma. Byddai yn ei dro yn cryfhau beth sy’n digwydd yn genedlaethol, oherwydd mi ydym ni’n blwyfol ofnadwy yng Nghymru.		The irony is that we in Wales know how to do hyperlocal because we’ve been doing it since 1974 when the first papur bro was launched. We also know why hyperlocal is necessary. I’ve been at international conferences where people have been discussing ‘Well, what does hyperlocal mean and why do we need hyperlocal?’ Well, we know why we need it. That’s why papurau bro were established: in order to promote community life, which includes news, naturally. But the hope is that by collaborating—. It’s very difficult for papurau bro to move forward on their own. They do it on different levels and different people have different degrees of information. Many of the people involved with papurau bro are ageing and it’s not that they’re not interested in new media, but they don’t naturally take to them. So, obviously they need support. But through collaboration, what you would hope is that you could bring an element of that hard news into these hyperlocal websites, which in turn would strengthen what happens at a national level, because we are very parochial in Wales.
[229] Heb fynd â gormod o’ch amser chi, rydym ni wedi—oherwydd ein bod ni’n methu â chael arian i wneud rhywbeth ar raddfa fawr—wnaethom ni benderfynu bod yn rhaid inni fuddsoddi ein hunain efo’n papur bro lleol, sef Clonc. Ac mae yna wefan, Clonc360, sy’n gweithio ar raddfa gymharol isel ar hyn o bryd. Ond, trwy gydweithio efo’r cyngor llyfrau rydym ni wedi gallu buddsoddi ychydig o arian mewn cryfhau Clonc360 dros dro, beth bynnag, i weld a fedrwn ni sefydlu rhywbeth mwy tymor hir. Ac mi oedd yna enghraifft ddiddorol iawn, iawn ddoe. Mi oeddem ni yn Golwg360 yn amlwg yn chwilio am Gymry a oedd wedi eu dal mewn rhyw ffordd yn y trychineb ym Manceinion, ac mi ddaethom ni ar draws merch o ardal Llambed a oedd yn y brifysgol ym Manceinion ac a oedd wedi gadael y ddinas y diwrnod cynt. Felly, mi wnaethom ni’r stori honno a’i chyhoeddi hi hefyd ar Clonc360, ac mi ges i neges e-bost y bore yma gan olygydd Clonc yn dweud bod y stori honno wedi cael ei gweld ymhell dros 3,000 o weithiau ar Facebook, sy’n rhyfeddol pan rydych chi’n ystyried eich bod chi’n sôn am bapur bro mewn ardal sydd heb boblogaeth o fawr mwy na 3,000. Felly, un enghraifft ydy o, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod rhywbeth fel yna yn dangos beth ydy’r potensial. Ond mae’n rhaid mynd ato fo yn strategol ac mae’n rhaid mynd ato fo yn fentrus ac ar raddfa fawr er mwyn iddo fo lwyddo.		Without taking too much of your time, because we haven’t been able to access funding to do something at a major scale, we decided we had to invest ourselves with our local papur bro, Clonc. And there is a Clonc360 website, which works at a relatively low level at the moment, but by collaborating with the Welsh Books Council we’ve been able to invest a little funding in strengthening Clonc360 temporarily to see if we can establish something in the longer term. And there was a very interesting example yesterday. We in Golwg360 were clearly looking for Welsh people who had been caught up in the tragedy in Manchester and we found a girl from the Lampeter area who was at university in Manchester and had left the city just the day before. So, we covered that story and published it on Clonc360, and I received an email this morning from the editor of Clonc telling me that that story had been viewed way over 3,000 times on Facebook, which is incredible when you’re talking about a papur bro in an area that has a population of little more than 3,000. That’s just one example, but I think that shows you what the potential is. But for me, you have to approach it strategically and we have to be innovative and look at it in a broader sense for it to succeed.
[230] Suzy Davies: Diolch.
[231] Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at y cwestiynau nesaf ac mae Hannah yn arwain ar hyn. Diolch.		Bethan Jenkins: Great. Thank you. We’ll move on to the next questions and Hannah is leading on these. Thank you.
[232] Hannah Blythyn: Diolch. In your previous answer to Suzy Davies you talked about other providers in the media not really picking up on stories and following them. To what extent do you work in collaboration with other news providers, whether in the Welsh medium or English language? Do you collaborate with other news providers at all?
[233] Mr Rhys: Na. O safbwynt Barn, nid oes yna ddim. Nid oes dim partneriaethau ffurfiol gyda ni o gwbl. Dyna’r ateb syml.		Mr Rhys: No. From the point of view of Barn there are no formal partnerships in place. That’s the simple answer.
[234] Mr Iorwerth: Fe wnawn ni gydweithio yn achlysurol ar ambell i beth, ond ar y cyfan, mae’n rhaid cofio ein bod ni i gyd yn cystadlu yn erbyn ein gilydd hefyd, ac er ein bod ni’n derbyn rhywfaint o arian grant, mae 80 y cant o incwm cylchgronau Golwg, a mwy na hynny yn achos Golwg ei hun, yn dod o ffynonellau masnachol. Felly rydym ni’n cystadlu yn fasnachol hefyd. Mae cydweithio yn gallu bod yn anodd pan rydych chi hefyd yn cystadlu, ond rydym ni yn gwneud hynny, wrth gwrs, ar ambell i stori neu rywbeth fel hynny. Fe wnaiff pethau godi, ond nid oes unrhyw beth ffurfiol, na.		Mr Iorwerth: We will collaborate occasionally on some things, but on the whole, we have to remember that we’re all competing against each other as well, and even though we receive some grant funding, 80 per cent of Golwg’s magazine income, or more than that for Golwg itself, comes from commercial sources. So we’re competing commercially also. So, collaboration can be difficult when you’re also competing. We do collaborate, of course, on some stories, and some things will arise, but we don’t have anything on a formal basis.
[235] Mr Rhys: Fe sylwais i ar awgrym Ifan Morgan Jones, rwy’n credu, y dylid cyhoeddi deunydd o gylchgronau eraill ar Golwg360 er mwyn cael mwy o gynulleidfa ac yn y blaen.		Mr Rhys: I noticed the suggestion that Ifan Morgan Jones made that material from other publications should be published on the Golwg360 website to enhance the audience.
[236] Bethan Jenkins: Ie, dyna’r cwestiwn roedd Jeremy’n mynd i ddod ato nawr.		Bethan Jenkins: We’re just going to come to that, as it happens.
[237] Mr Iorwerth: Rydym ni wedi’i gwneud yn glir wrth y cyngor llyfrau a rhai o’r cylchgronau ein bod ni’n hollol barod i wneud hynny. Ond mae’n fater i bob cylchgrawn unigol hefyd benderfynu beth yw eu perthynas nhw â’r cyfryngau digidol a sut maen nhw eisiau eu defnyddio nhw. Ac rwy’n meddwl bod yna bryder ymhlith rhai chyhoeddwyr, beth bynnag, y gallai cyhoeddi gormod yn ddigidol danseilio gwerthiant y cylchgrawn print.		Mr Iorwerth: Well, we have made it clear to the books council and some of the other publications that we’re entirely willing to do that. But it’s an issue for each individual publication to decide what their relationship is with the digital media and how they want to use them. And I do think that there is concern amongst some publishers that publishing too much digitally could undermine the sales of the print material.
[238] Bethan Jenkins: A oes unrhyw beth gyda ti i ddod nôl ato yn hynny o beth, Jeremy?		Bethan Jenkins: Do you have anything you want to come back to on that, Jeremy?
[239] Jeremy Miles: Jest i ddweud, y pwynt mae’n ei wneud yw bod sialens a thyndra rhwng beth mae’r Llywodraeth fan hyn—y ffordd maen nhw’n cloriannu a mesur llwyddiant cyhoeddiadau drwy gopïau maen nhw’n gwerthu mewn print a’r syniad yma o reach a dylanwad cynnyrch sy’n cael ei ariannu gan Gyngor Llyfrau Cymru—yn Gymraeg rwy’n sôn amdano’n benodol. A ydych chi’n credu bod y nod mae’n ei ddisgrifio, hynny yw bod un wefan lle byddai cyhoeddiadau sy’n cael eu hariannu’n gyhoeddus yn rhoi eu cynnwys fel bod man cyfarwydd i bawb dderbyn eu cynnwys newyddion Cymraeg—a ydy hwn yn nod da? Rydych chi wedi sôn am sialensau ar hyd y ffordd, ond a fyddech chi’n cefnogi hynny fel rhywbeth i anelu tuag ato fe?		Jeremy Miles: The point that he makes is that there is a challenge and tension between what the Government here looks at in analysing and measuring the success of publications through the copies that they sell in print and this idea of reach and the influence of the output that is funded by the Welsh Books Council—in Welsh specifically. Do you think that the aim he describes, that one website where publications that are publicly funded would have content so that there would be a familiar site for people to receive their Welsh language content—is that a good aim? You’ve talked about the challenges on the way, but would you support that as something to aim for?
[240] Mr Rhys: Wel, yn y bôn, penderfyniad gwleidyddol fyddai hwnnw, pe bai’r noddwyr yn dweud bod hynny’n gorfod digwydd. Mae yna dyndra yna, achos ar yr un pryd, rydym ni’n cael ein hannog i anelu at fodel lle rydym ni’n cynhyrchu traean o’n hincwm drwy ein hadnoddau ein hunain, yn annibynnol ar y grant. Mae yna ddadl ynghylch—rwyf wedi cael y ddadl yma ar trydar ddwywaith dros y tair blynedd diwethaf. Mae yna bobl sy’n credu y dylai Barn i gyd fod am ddim ar y we. Nid ydym yn cytuno â hynny. Rydym yn credu ei bod yn iawn ein bod ni’n gofyn i bobl dalu am gylchgrawn o ansawdd, lle mae pobl yn cael eu talu fel cyfranwyr a golygyddion. Ac rydym ni’n ei gwneud hi’n £20 i danysgrifio am flwyddyn, felly rydym ni’n ceisio denu pobl i gymryd y cam yma i danysgrifio ar gyfer y we yn unig. Rwy’n deall cymhellion y bobl sydd o blaid hyn, ond mae yna dyndra os taw—. Yn y bôn rydym ni’n dal yn gwmnïau, yn fusnesau, ac mi fyddai rhai erthyglau am ddim bob mis yn effeithio, rwy’n credu, ar ein cylchrediad ni. Felly mae yna dyndra yna, oes.		Mr Rhys: Well, essentially that would be a political decision, if the funders said that that had to happen. But there is a tension there of course, because we are encouraged to look at a model where we produce a third of our income ourselves, and not being reliant on the grant. Of course, there is an argument to be made—and I’ve had this argument on Twitter twice over the past three years. There are people who think that Barn should be available free of charge online. We don’t agree with that. We think it’s right that we ask people to pay for a quality publication, where people are paid as editors and contributors, and it’s £20 for a 12-month subscription, so we’re trying to encourage people to take that step and subscribe online. Now, I understand the motives of people who do favour this, but there is some tension, because essentially we are still companies, we’re still businesses, and providing some articles free of charge every month would impact our circulation. So there is some tension there, yes.
Mr Iorwerth: Rwy’n meddwl i ni, gan fod gennym ni wefan fawr—Golwg360, y gwasanaeth ar y we—yn naturiol fe fyddem ni’n ddigon hapus, achos byddai’n denu mwy o bobl i ddod i’n gwefan ni. Rwy’n edrych ar y peth yn hunanol. Ond rwy’n deall y tyndra. Y broblem ydy nad oes neb, gan gynnwys ni, wedi llwyddo i wneud i newyddion dalu yn ddigidol, ac felly byddai gwneud hynny’n golygu bod cylchgronau fel Barn yn mynd yn llwyr ddibynnol ar grantiau a dim byd arall. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna beryglon yn fanna. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna beryglon hefyd. Os ydy’r diwylliant Cymraeg yn ddiwylliant sydd jest ar gael am ddim, yna nid yw pobl byth yn talu am ddim byd. Mae Cymry Cymraeg yn disgwyl i gyngherddau Cymraeg safonol fod yn llawer rhatach nag unrhyw gyngerdd arall. Maen nhw’n disgwyl bod llyfrau Cymraeg lot rhatach na llyfrau Saesneg, ac mae yna beryglon yn hynny. Rydych chi wedyn yn colli gwerth ar eich diwylliant eich hun. Rwyf innau’n deall y dadleuon, ac ar un olwg mae’n gwneud sens perffaith. Peth arall: nid wyf yn siŵr ai yn ddigidol y byddai pobl eisiau darllen Barn, na chylchgronau eraill chwaith. Mae yna rai pethau sydd yn gweithio’n well mewn print: lluniau arbennig o dda, er enghraifft, yn gallu gweithio’n well, a mathau arbennig o drafodaeth. Rydw i’n siŵr bod yna ffyrdd, a beth rydym ni wedi’i gynnig ydy bod cylchgronau eraill yn gallu, efallai, cyhoeddi blas ar beth sydd ganddyn nhw ar ein gwefan ni. Rydw i’n meddwl, efallai, fod yna le i ni gyd ddefnyddio’r cyfryngau newydd yn well o ran marchnata beth sydd gennym ni mewn print.		Mr Iorwerth: I think for us, because we have a large website—Golwg360—naturally, we would be quite happy, because it would attract more people to our website, looking at it from a selfish point of view. But I understand the tension. The problem is that nobody, including us, has succeeded in making news pay digitally, and therefore doing that would mean that magazines such as Barn would be totally dependent on grants. But it’s another question if the Welsh culture is something that’s free and that people don’t pay anything for it. Welsh speakers expect good quality concerts in Welsh to be much cheaper than other concerts. They expect Welsh books to be much cheaper than English books, and there are dangers in that, because you then lose value on your own culture. I also understand the arguments, and on one sense it makes perfect sense. Another thing that I’m not sure about is whether people would want to read Barn digitally, or other magazines either. There are some things that work better in print: photographs that are very good, for example, can work better in print, and certain types of discussion. I’m sure there are ways, and what we’ve offered is that other magazines can perhaps publish a taste of what they have on our website. I think there is room for us all to use these new media better in terms of marketing what we have in print.
[241] Jeremy Miles: A gaf jest i ddweud rhywbeth o ran datgan buddiannau? Nid ydw i’n gwybod beth yw’r polisi, ond rwyf wedi cyfrannu at Golwg a Barn ac rwy’n siŵr bod pobl eraill wedi hefyd, felly.		Jeremy Miles: Can I just say something in terms of declarations of interest? I’m not sure what the policy is, but I have contributed to Golwg and to Barn, and I’m sure that others have, too.
[242] Bethan Jenkins: Wel, ie, roeddwn i’n tanysgrifio i Barn am flynyddoedd. Mae’n rhaid i fi ail-tanysgrifio, mae’n siŵr, nawr. Cwestiwn sydd gen i ynglŷn â’r BBC a democratiaeth, y system democratiaeth leol newydd maen nhw’n ei pheilota, bod newyddiadurwyr yn mynd i mewn i bapurau, ac, fel rydym ni wedi ei ddeall gan Emma Meese y bore yma, o Brifysgol Caerdydd, i hyperlocals hefyd. A ydych chi wedi manteisio ar gyfle y gyllideb newydd yma gan y BBC, lle maen nhw’n ‘topslice-o’ i roi arian i mewn i newyddiaduraeth leol? Rydych chi’n sôn eich bod chi wedi gorfod mynd i gael grantiau gwledig Llywodraeth Cymru. A ydy hyn yn rhywbeth rydych chi wedi edrych i mewn iddo, hefyd, fel Golwg neu Barn?		Bethan Jenkins: Well, yes, I subscribed to Barn for many years. I must, actually, refresh my subscription now. I have a question on the BBC and local democracy, and the pilot that they’ve established in terms of local democracy, where journalists go into newspapers, and, as we’ve understood this morning from Emma Meese, from Cardiff University, they are working with hyperlocals too. Have you taken advantage of the opportunity of the funding provided by the BBC, where they top-slice in order to provide funding for local journalism? You’ve said that you have had to get grants from the rural development programme of the Welsh Government. Have you looked into this at all, as Golwg or as Barn?
[243] Mr Iorwerth: Nid ydym ni hyd yn hyn, ac nid ydw i cweit wedi deall y system yn iawn. Hynny ydy, roeddwn i’n gweld o’r disgrifiad a’r dystiolaeth y maen nhw wedi’i rhoi i chi—roedd yn swnio i fi fel eu bod nhw’n rhoi newyddiadurwyr a fyddai wedyn yn darparu deunydd.		Mr Iorwerth: Not so far, and I haven’t quite understood the system correctly. That is, I saw from the description and the evidence that they provided to you—it sounded as if they were placing journalists who would then provide content.
[244] Bethan Jenkins: Ie, dyna roeddwn i’n ei ddeall, hefyd.		Bethan Jenkins: Yes, that’s what I understood, too.
[245] Mr Iorwerth: Ond nid yw hynny yn gwneud dim byd i luosogaeth, nac ydy, achos yr un un bobl sy’n dal i gynhyrchu’r stwff. Yr unig beth mae hyn yn ei olygu yw bod eu stwff nhw yn cael ei gyhoeddi mewn llawer rhagor o lefydd, felly nid ydw i’n gweld hynny yn ateb.		Mr Iorwerth: But that doesn’t do much for plurality, does it, because it’s the same people who are still producing the same stuff. All it means is that their stuff is published in many more areas, so I don’t think that’s a solution.
[246] Y pwynt ydy—rydw i’n meddwl mai’r un peth nad oes yna neb ohonom ni wedi sylwi llawer arno fo, ac roeddwn i’n gweld bod yna gwestiynau yn cael eu codi a ddylai Llywodraeth gefnogi, er enghraifft, gwasanaeth newyddion ar-lein, neu’r math yna o gwestiwn, yn y cyd-destun Saesneg. Wel, y gwir ydy bod y Llywodraeth eisoes yn cefnogi papur newydd ar-lein, sef holl wefannau’r BBC. Erbyn hyn, mae gwefannau newyddion y BBC yn bapurau newydd ar-lein. Mae’r BBC wedi symud i mewn i brint. Nid ydw i’n eu beio nhw, achos dyna’n union beth buaswn i wedi’i wneud, pe buaswn i yn y BBC.		The point is—I think one thing that nobody has commented on much, and I saw that questions were being raised about whether the Government should support, perhaps, an online news service, or that sort of question, in the English context. The truth is that the Government is supporting an online newspaper, which is all the BBC websites. By now, the BBC news websites are online newspapers. The BBC has moved into print, and I don’t blame them, because that’s exactly what I would have done, if I were in the BBC.
[247] Mae’r holl gyfryngau wedi dod at eu gilydd bellach. Mae’r papurau newydd, fel ni, sydd ar-lein, yn cael eu gwthio gan y farchnad i gynhyrchu pethau fel fideo a ffeiliau sain ac yn y blaen, sy’n debycach i ddarlledu. Ond, ar yr un pryd, mae’r BBC wedi dechrau cyhoeddi papurau newydd ar-lein, ac, efo’r adnoddau sydd ganddyn nhw, yn arbennig yn Gymraeg, nid oes yna ddim gobaith i bobl fel ni gystadlu ar hynny, ac mae o hefyd yn golygu buasai bron yn amhosib—. Mae’r cwestiwn wastad yn cael ei ofyn am paywall—a ddylem ni fod yn codi am ddeunydd ddigidol? Wel, ni fyddai gobaith gennym ni i godi am ddeunydd digidol pan fo gennych chi wasanaeth anferth wrth eich ochr chi sydd am ddim.		All the media have come together now. Newspapers such as us that are online are being pushed by the market to produce things such as video and sound clips, which is closer to broadcasting. But, at the same time, the BBC has started to publish online newspapers, and, with the resources that they have, in particular in Welsh, there is no hope for people such as us to compete with that, and it also means that it would be nearly impossible—. People are always asking about paywalls—should we be charging for digital content? Well, we wouldn’t have a hope of charging for digital content when you have a massive service next to you that is free.
[248] Rydw i’n meddwl bod pobl—gwleidyddion a phawb arall—wedi peidio â sylwi, neu methu â sylwi, bod y BBC wedi symud i mewn i brint. Print ar sgrin, ond print ydy o er hynny. Nid yw hynny yn feirniadaeth ar y BBC—mae gen i ddyled fawr i’r BBC; rydw i’n gwneud gwaith i’r BBC, a chydnabod budd. Ond mae’n rhaid edrych ar y peth yn galed, a beth buaswn i’n licio ei weld buasai llawer iawn, iawn mwy o fentrau.		I think people—politicians and others—haven’t noticed, or have failed to notice, that the BBC has moved into print. It is print on screen, but it is print nevertheless. That is not a criticism of the BBC—I am indebted to the BBC; I do work for the BBC and declare an interest. But you have to take a hard look at it, and what I would like to see is many, many more ventures.
[249] Roeddech chi’n holi ynglŷn a chystadleuaeth; buaswn i’n licio gweld bob math o wahanol fathau o gyfryngau bach newydd Cymraeg yn datblygu. Mae’n siom i fi nad oes yna dim byd sylweddol wedi dechrau ers i Golwg ddechrau yn 1988, a’r pethau eraill rydym ni wedi’u datblygu. Nid oes neb ifanc 30 oed wedi dod i mewn a dechrau rhywbeth hollol newydd, a buaswn i’n licio gweld bod gennym ni system, trwy arian cyhoeddus ac yn y blaen, sy’n caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd. Ac mae’n bosib, wedyn, fod yn rhaid meddwl, ‘Wel, mae’n rhaid ystyried bod y BBC, a’r arian maen nhw’n ei wario ar y cyfryngau digidol, yn rhan o’r pot yna hefyd’.		You were talking about competition; I would like to see all sorts of new Welsh language media developing. It disappoints me that there is nothing significant that has started since Golwg started in 1988, and the other things that we’ve developed. There is nobody young, 30-years-old, who has started anything new, and I would like to see that we have a system, through public funding, that allows that to happen. And it’s possible, then, perhaps, that you have to think, ‘Well, you have to consider that the BBC, and the money they spend on digital media, are part of that pot’.
[250] Rydw i’n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni edrych ar hynny ac, yn y diwedd, mi fuasai hynny yn lles i’r BBC hefyd, yn Gymraeg, achos rydym ni i gyd angen byd o bethau Cymraeg er mwyn i bopeth ffynnu, felly. Rydym ni eisiau lot mwy o amrywiaeth er mwyn tynnu pobl i mewn i’r diwylliant Cymraeg yn gyffredinol, ac mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid i chi gael pobl sy’n fodlon mentro a gwneud pethau na fyddai hyd yn oed, efallai, noddwyr cyhoeddus yn arbennig o hapus efo nhw, ond mi ddylen nhw eu caniatáu nhw er mwyn y lles cyffredinol.		I think we have to look at it in that way and, ultimately, that would be of benefit to the BBC, in the medium of Welsh, because we all need a whole world of things in Welsh for everything to thrive. We need much more variety in order to draw people into Welsh culture generally, and that means you have to have people who are willing to take risks and do things, perhaps, that public sponsors wouldn’t particularly be happy with, but they should be allowed for the general benefit.
[251] Bethan Jenkins: A oes gennych chi sylwadau ar hynny, Rob?		Bethan Jenkins: Do you have any comments on that, Rob?
[252] Mr Rhys: Wel, fe ddylwn i nodi, o safbwynt Barn, felly, mai ein harwyddair ni, bron, yw ‘annibyniaeth barn’. Mae’r gallu i gynnig barn annibynnol a gwneud pethau’n annibynnol: dyna beth rydym ni eisiau ei ddiogelu. Nid yw e mor berthnasol i ni.		Mr Rhys: Well, from the point of view of Barn, our motto is ‘annibyniaeth barn’—independence of opinion. The ability to provide independence of opinion is something that we want to safeguard. The question isn’t as relevant to us.
[253] Bethan Jenkins: Cwestiwn gan Dai Lloyd nesaf.		Bethan Jenkins: There’s a question from Dai Lloyd next.
[254] Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Cadeirydd. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yr holl fusnes yma ynglŷn ag ariannu, a sut mae creu fwy o gyllid yn fasnachol, felly, yn enwedig—yn benodol, felly, i Golwg. Yn naturiol, rydych chi’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus, ac rydych chi wedi crybwyll hynny eisoes—wel, mae’n wybyddus i bawb, ta beth.		Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Thank you. All this business about funding and how to create more funding commercially—specifically to Golwg, this is a question I’m asking. Naturally, you receive public money, and you’ve mentioned that already, and it’s known to everybody anyway.
[255] Beth rydych chi’n gweld ydy’r rhwystrau i greu mwy o gyllid yn fasnachol? Rydw i’n gwybod eich bod chi wedi cael eich lleoli, yn naturiol, yng Ngheredigion, sydd ddim yn helpu yn nhermau codi pris ar unrhyw beth, ond mae hynny’n ddadl wahanol yn amlwg. A ŷch chi’n gweld o dderbyn arian cyhoeddus bod hynny efallai yn gallu tanseilio eich annibyniaeth chi weithiau, yntau, o gofio hefyd y pictiwr mawr ydy fod pob papur newydd yn derbyn arian o rywle, ac nid ydym yn cael y ddadl yna ynglŷn â thanseilio annibyniaeth pan fo ryw filiwnydd yn rhoi lot o bres i bapur newydd—? Ond jest agor y lle i chi.		What do you think are the challenges to creating more funding commercially? I know you’re located in Ceredigion, which doesn’t help in terms of putting a price on anything, but that’s a different argument. But, in terms of receiving public money, do you think that that can undermine your independence sometimes, or, remembering that the big picture is that every paper receives money from somewhere, and we don’t have the argument about undermining independence when a millionaire gives money to a newspaper—? I just want to open the floor to you.
[256] Mr Iorwerth: Gallaf i ddweud i ddechrau yn onest nad oes yna ddim ymyrraeth wedi bod yn ein cynnwys ni. Rwy’n cofio un Aelod Seneddol, flynyddoedd yn ôl, yn trio ein bygwth ni oherwydd ein bod ni wedi cyhoeddi rhywbeth nad oedd o’n ei licio, a hynny oherwydd ein bod ni’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus. Mi fydd pobl bob hyn a hyn yn dweud, ‘Ddylech chi ddim fod yn gwneud hyn a chithau’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus’, neu ‘Rydych chi’n “kow-tow-io”, oherwydd eich bod chi’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus’. Ond gallaf i ddweud yn onest nad oes neb erioed wedi trio ymyrryd yn uniongyrchol.		Mr Iorwerth: I can say, first of all, quite honestly, that there has been no intervention in terms of our output. I remember one Member of Parliament, many years ago, trying to threaten us because we’d published something that he wasn’t particularly happy with, because we were in receipt of public money. People will occasionally say, ‘Well you shouldn’t be doing this, because you are in receipt of public funds’ or ‘You’re kow-towing, because you’re in receipt of public funds’. But I can say quite honestly that nobody has tried to intervene directly.
[257] Ond rydw i’n meddwl bod derbyn arian cyhoeddus yn gallu ystumio ychydig bach ar beth rydych chi’n ei wneud ac ar eich strategaeth chi. Yr enghraifft buaswn i’n ei rhoi ydy, rhywbeth fel Golwg360, pan oedd yn dod i mewn i’r bwlch papur newyddion dyddiol Cymraeg, onid oedd—o dan y pennawd hwnnw yr oedd wedi dod. Felly, yn amlwg mae gennym ni, oherwydd ein bod ni’n derbyn grant, y cyfrifoldeb i gyhoeddi pethau sy’n cyfateb i bapur newydd dyddiol Cymraeg, sef newyddion Prydeinig, newyddion tramor ac yn y blaen, a thrio o leiaf rhoi blas ar newyddion cyffredinol i bawb.		But I do think that receipt of public money can have an impact on what you do and what your strategy is. The example I would give is Golwg360. It filled the gap in terms of a daily Welsh language newspaper; that’s where it emerged from. So, because we receive a grant, we have a responsibility to publish things that would correspond to a Welsh language daily, which would be British news and international news, and to try to at least give people a flavour of the news more generally.
[258] Buasai’n ddiddorol—pe tasem ni’n hollol fasnachol, ai dyna beth buasem ni’n ei wneud? Rydym ni’n gwybod mai’r straeon mwyaf poblogaidd sydd gennym ni ydy’r rhai gwreiddiol Cymreig sydd efallai ddim yn ymddangos yn unman arall. Pe buasech chi’n gweithio ar rywbeth hollol fasnachol heb y cyfrifoldeb ‘cyhoeddus’ yma a fyddem ni’n penderfynu, ‘Wel, reit, mi wnawn ni fuddsoddi ein holl adnoddau mewn jest mynd ar ôl y math yna o stori, a pheidio â thrio gwneud y pethau eraill yna’? Gan fod llawer mwy o bobl bellach yn dod at wefan fel Golwg360 trwy ffôn symudol a llechen electronig a thrwy bethau fel Facebook a thrydar, beth mae o’n ei olygu yw mai mynd am stori maen nhw. Felly, mi allech chi wneud dadl fasnachol dros ddweud, ‘Wel, fel yna y dylem ni fod yn gweithredu’, ond mae gennym ni’r cyfrifoldeb arall yma. Ond nid ydw i’n dweud mai dyna y buasem ni’n ei wneud, achos rydym ni’n teimlo cyfrifoldeb ein hunain bod angen i’r cyfryngau Cymraeg roi sylw i bopeth. Ond dyna’r ffordd y mae arian cyhoeddus yn gallu ystumio beth rydych yn ei wneud.		If we were entirely commercial, I wonder whether that’s what we would do. We know that the most popular stories that we run are the original Welsh stories that don’t appear anywhere else. Now, if you worked on an entirely commercial basis without that public responsibility, would we decide, ‘Well, we’ll invest all our resources in just pursuing those types of stories and not try to cover all of these other issues’? As far more people now come to a website such as Golwg360 through a mobile phone or a tablet or things such as Facebook and Twitter, what it means is that they are accessing a story. So, you could make a commercial case and say, ‘Well, that’s how we should operate’, but we have this other responsibility. I’m not saying that that’s what we would do, because we feel a responsibility ourselves that we need this broad range of coverage in the Welsh language media, but that is how public funding can have an impact on what you do.
[259] Nid ydych chi’n gallu newid eich tactegau yn ofnadwy o gyflym. Yn naturiol, mae polisi cyhoeddus yn symud yn arafach na’r farchnad. Wedyn, mae yna berig weithiau bod targedau a phethau felly yn eich clymu chi ormod wrth beth rydych wedi bod yn ei wneud yn hytrach na’ch bod chi’n gallu meddwl yn gyflym am bethau hollol wahanol ac efallai methu rhai o’ch targedau. Mae o’n gallu gwneud hynny.		You can’t change your tactics particularly quickly. Naturally, public policy is going to move more slowly than the market. There is occasionally a risk that targets and such things do tie you to what you’ve done in the past rather than your being able to be quick on your feet and actually think differently and perhaps miss some of your targets. It can do that.
[260] Yn ddiddorol, cyn y cwymp ariannol yn 2008, roeddem ni bron, o fewn Golwg, yn gallu dychmygu y buasai Golwg, y cylchgrawn, wedi gallu byw ar ei draed ei hun trwy subsidy gan weddill gwaith masnachol y cwmni. Ond mae arnaf ofn mai un o’r pethau a chwalodd hynny oedd y chwalfa economaidd, sydd wedi newid yr economi ac wedi newid y maes papurau newydd bron yn fwy na dim byd arall.		Interestingly, before the financial crash of 2008, we in Golwg had imagined that the magazine could have been self-sufficient through subsidy from the rest of the commercial work of the company, but I’m afraid that one of the things that destroyed that was the financial crash, which has changed the economy and has changed newspapers almost more than anything else.
[261] Dai Lloyd: Ydy, ydy. Jest i ddatblygu’r ddadl, roeddech chi’n sôn gynnau bach ynglŷn â chyplysu gwybodaeth o Clonc, sef papur bro Llanbed, ac, fel rŷch chi’n gwybod, mae yna nifer fawr o bapurau bro ledled Cymru. A ydych chi’n meddwl yn nhermau datblygu unrhyw gysylltiadau ychwanegol er mwyn datblygu a hyrwyddo’r fath yna o agenda, achos, wrth gwrs, os ydych chi’n mynd i fynd ar ôl y pethau sy’n unigryw i Gymru, yn enwedig i Gymru wledig, mae eisiau mynd ar ôl rhagor o bapurau bro efallai?		Dai Lloyd: Yes, it has. Just to develop the argument, you mentioned earlier bringing together information from Clonc, which is the papur bro in Lampeter, and, as you know, there are a number of papurau bro across Wales. Are you thinking about developing any additional links in order to develop and promote that sort of agenda, because, of course, if you’re going to go after the sort of things that are unique to Wales, especially rural Wales, you have to go after more papurau bro?
[262] Mr Iorwerth: Wel, oes. Cynllun peilot rydym ni wedi gwneud cais grant amdano fo, inni weithio efo cwpwl o glystyrau o bapurau bro. O bosib—mae’n dibynnu pwy sydd eisiau cydweithio â ni, ond, o bosib, bydd yn ardal ganol Ceredigion ac efallai ardal Arfon, achos mae gennym ni swyddfa hefyd yng Nghaernarfon sydd yn ei wneud o’n haws, ac o bosib un neu ddau o lefydd eraill a fyddai’n dangos diddordeb. Wedyn rydych chi’n trio gweithio ar wahanol fodelau i weld beth sydd yn gweithio. Byddai’r gwefannau yma ddim jest yn brint, ond byddai deunydd fideo, Facebook, trydar—yr holl bethau yma’n bwydo i mewn iddyn nhw.		Mr Iorwerth: Well, yes. We’ve made a grant application for a pilot programme to work with a few clusters of papurau bro. Depending on who wants to collaborate with us, it may be in the central Ceredigion area, the Arfon area, because we also have an office in Caernarfon, which would make it easier, and perhaps a few other areas that may show an interest. Then you’re trying to work on different models to see what can work. These websites wouldn’t just be print, they would be video material, Facebook, Twitter—all of these things would feed into them.
[263] Mae Clonc360 yn dangos hynny ar raddfa fach iawn heb adnoddau, ond mi fyddai’n bosib gwneud llawer iawn, iawn mwy. Y gobaith ydy wedyn y byddai yna bobl ifanc yn dod i mewn i gynnal y pethau yma ar raddfa leol ac y byddech chi hefyd yn denu cynulleidfa newydd, ac efallai papurau bro yn cario ymlaen, ond mi fydd yn rhaid i bapurau bro addasu ychydig beth bynnag achos mai pethau fel Facebook a thrydar ydy’r ffordd naturiol i ddweud ‘Penblwydd Hapus’ wrth rywun bellach, nid aros am fis i’w ddweud o mewn papur bro. Mae hynny’n bownd o newid. Ond, ie, dyna ydy’r bwriad, yn sicr.		Clonc360 is demonstrating that on a very low level without resources, but we could do much, much more. The hope is that young people would come in to maintain these at a local level and that you would also attract a new audience, and perhaps papurau bro will continue, but papurau bro will have to adapt because things such as Twitter and Facebook are now the natural way of saying ‘Happy Birthday’, not waiting a month to say it in a papur bro. That’s bound to change. But that’s the intention, certainly.
11:15
[264] Bethan Jenkins: Jest cwestiwn olaf nawr, gan Dawn Bowden.		Bethan Jenkins: The final question, now, from Dawn Bowden.
[265] Dawn Bowden: Thank you, Chair. Ifan Morgan Jones, who was quoted earlier on by—[Inaudible.] He also talked about public funding, that, because of public funding, Welsh language journalism is enjoying something of a golden age—you may or may not agree with that, but that was his assessment of it. I’m just wondering to what extent you think the public funding model that Welsh journalism is enjoying could, perhaps, assist English language journalism in a similar way, where they’ve experienced similar difficulties. I know the extent of English language journalism is much greater, so it’s, you know—.
[266] Mr Rhys: Wel, rwy’n gallu cofio cylchgrawn Saesneg a oedd yn dod allan pob pythefnos, rwy’n credu, o’r enw ‘Arcade’, dan olygyddiaeth John Osmond. Roeddwn i’n teimlo roedd e’n gyhoeddiad llwyddiannus, ac efallai y byddai wedi gallu cael ei gynnal, ond byddai’n rhaid ei newid a’i modelu yn wahanol iawn heddiw pe bai cylchgrawn fel yna’n dal yn bod. Rŷm ni’n clywed pob hyn a hyn, ‘Ble mae’r Barn Saesneg?’, er enghraifft. Mae yna gylchgronau—. Mi oeddem ni, yn wreiddiol, o dan adain y cyngor celfyddydau. Mae cylchgronau Saesneg materion cyfoes sydd yn derbyn nawdd tebyg i Barn. Rwy’n credu bod siarad am noddi papurau newydd Saesneg—. Mae hynny’n faes gwahanol nad ydw i’n gwybod digon amdano fe, ond—.		Mr Rhys: Well, I can remember an English magazine that came out every fortnight, I think, which was called ‘Arcade’, and John Osmond was the editor. I felt it was a successful publication, and perhaps it could have been maintained, but it would have to change and be modelled differently if such a publication existed today. We hear every now and again, ‘Where is the English Barn?’, for example. There are magazines—. We were originally under the arts council. There are English current affairs magazines that receive sponsorship similar to Barn. I think talking about sponsoring English language newspapers—. That is a different area that I don’t know enough about, but—.
[267] Mr Iorwerth: Wel, rydw i’n meddwl mai un o'r cwestiynau, wrth gwrs, ydy: pwy sy'n berchnogion ar y papurau newydd? Pan fyddwch chi’n sôn am bapurau newydd Saesneg yng Nghymru, mae’r rhan fwyaf yn eiddo i gwmnïau mawr, mawr, mawr. Ac wedyn, rydw i'n meddwl y buasai gennych chi broblem wleidyddol yn trio cyfiawnhau rhoi arian i Trinity Mirror, er enghraifft. A oes yna fodelau y gallwch chi eu datblygu efo papurau lleol a’r eraill annibynnol? Mae’n bosib, efallai. Nid ydw i’n gweld problem sylfaenol efo noddi fel rydym ni’n derbyn nawdd, felly—ei fod e’n hyd braich a bod yna reolau clir. Rydw i wedi egluro sut mae nawdd cyhoeddus yn gallu ystumio beth ydych chi’n ei wneud, ond nid ydw i’n gweld problem fawr o ran ymyrraeth cyn belled â bod yna fframwaith ddigon gryf i sicrhau annibyniaeth y cyhoeddiadau hynny.		Mr Iorwerth: Well I think that one of the questions, of course, is: who owns the newspapers? When you talk of English language newspapers in Wales, most are owned by multinationals. And I think you would have a political problem with trying to justify giving funding to Trinity Mirror, for example. Now, are there models that you can develop with local newspapers and independent newspapers? Perhaps there are. I don’t see a fundamental problem with providing funding in the way that we receive funding—that it’s at arm’s length and there are clear rules in place. Now, I’ve explained how public funding can impact what you do, but I don’t see a huge problem in terms of intervention as long as there is a robust framework in place to ensure the independence of those publications.
[268] Ond rydw i’n meddwl bod un peth mae’n rhaid i ni gofio hefyd o ran papurau newydd, sef beth gyfeiriais ato reit ar y dechrau. Nid yw’n fater o jest ddweud beth buasem ni’n licio ei weld; mae’n beth sy'n bosib yn fasnachol hefyd. Yn ogystal â beth sy’n digwydd i hysbysebion, sy'n creu problem anferth i bawb sy’n cyhoeddi print—ar ben hynny, mae yna broblemau o ran dosbarthu o ran yr ochr supply, felly, achos mae yna lai a llai o siopau papur newydd. Er enghraifft, yn Llambed bellach, nid oes yna ddim un siop sy’n siop bapur newydd. Mae papurau newydd yn cael eu gwerthu mewn siopau cornel neu mewn archfarchnadoedd. Ac, i bobl fel ni, mae hynny'n creu problem, achos beth mae archfarchnadoedd yn ei gymryd—mae nifer cyfyngedig o bethau maen nhw’n eu gwerthu, ac mae'n anodd iawn cystadlu efo cannoedd ar gannoedd o gylchgronau a phapurau newydd. Ac, ar ben hynny, nid ydy archfarchnadoedd ac yn y blaen yn cymryd archebion pob wythnos, er enghraifft, yn ein hachos ni, sy'n ei gwneud yn llawer gwaeth. Roedd pobl yn arfer mynd i siop bapur newydd pob dydd yn reddfol ac buasen nhw’n codi’r un papur newydd bob dydd, ac, unwaith yr wythnos, efallai buasen nhw’n codi Golwg. Nid yw pobl yn gweithredu fel yna os ydyn nhw’n mynd i archfarchnad, neu fwy fyth yn siopa ar-lein.		But I do think there’s one thing we need to bear in mind in terms of newspapers, and this is something I referred to at the very outset. It’s not just a matter of saying what we would like to see; what’s commercially possible is also an issue. As well as what’s happening in terms of advertisements, which is creating huge problems for everyone involved in the print media—in addition to that, there are problems in terms of distribution on the supply side, because there are fewer and fewer newsagents available now. In Lampeter, there isn’t a single newsagent. Newspapers are sold in corner shops or in supermarkets. And, for people such as us, that does create a problem, because what supermarkets take is limited in terms of the items that they sell, and it’s very difficult to compete with hundreds of magazines, newspapers and publications. And, in addition to that, supermarkets don’t take weekly orders in our case, which makes it very difficult. People used to go to their newsagent on a daily basis and they would pick up the same newspaper every day, and, once a week, they might pick up a copy of Golwg, but people don’t operate in the same way in supermarkets, and certainly not online.
[269] Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod yna argyfwng o ran print, ac mae argyfwng ar yr ochr dosbarthu hefyd bydd yn wynebu papurau Saesneg lawn gymaint â phapurau Cymraeg. Mae hyd yn oed papurau bro, rŵan, yn gorfod chwilio am lefydd newydd i werthu papurau. Mae papur bro Clonc, er enghraifft, yn gwerthu yn y cigydd lleol erbyn hyn.		So, I do think that there is a crisis in terms of print, and also on the distribution side that’s going to face English language publications just as much as Welsh. Even papurau bro now have to look for new sales points. Clonc, for example, sells at the local butchers now.
[270] Felly, mae hynny'n cael effaith fawr iawn, ac nid ydw i’n siŵr pa mor hir bydd y system cyfanwerthu yn gynaliadwy, yn sicr i gyhoeddiadau llai. A pheidiwch â gofyn imi ddechrau ar y system gyfanwerthu a'r problemau mae honno’n eu hachosi.		So, that’s going to have a huge impact, and I’m not sure how long the retail system will be sustainable, particularly for smaller publications. And don’t get me started on the retail system and the problems caused there.
[271] Dawn Bowden: So, just to follow up on that, then, has the industry looked at that and talked to other organisations and retailers, about how you might overcome that particular problem?
[272] Mr Iorwerth: Rydw i’n siŵr bod yna bobl yn edrych ar y peth, ond beth mae’r rhan fwyaf o gwmnïau mawr yn ei wneud hyd y gwelaf i ydy troi at ddigidol. Cymerwch chi The Western Mail, er enghraifft, mae'n hollol amlwg eu bod nhw—bod Trinity Mirror—wedi gwneud penderfyniad bwriadol i fynd am ddigidol, achos nid ydyn nhw’n poeni llawer am eu gwerthiant print. Mae'n anodd iawn, wedyn, pan ydych chi'n fach, achos nid oes gennym ddylanwad dros WHSmith. Ambell dro, fe wnawn nhw drio ein helpu ni, ond fedrwn ni ddim trio dweud wrthyn nhw sut i gynnal eu busnes. Wedyn, nid wyf i’n gwybod sut mae dod rownd hynny. Mae’r broblem o brinder siopau ac yn y blaen yn effeithio arnyn nhw hefyd. Dyna’r ofn o ran print. Mae o’n ddiwydiant sy’n newid yn ofnadwy, ac fel rydw i’n dweud, rydw i’n meddwl mai dim ond rhai pethau a fydd ar ôl mewn print yn y diwedd. Bydd pethau fel newyddion y funud ar gael ar sgrin, ac wedyn bydd yn rhaid i ni i gyd, rywsut neu’i gilydd, addasu i hynny.		Mr Iorwerth: I’m sure there are people looking at it, but what the majority of the large companies are doing, as far as I can see, is turning to digital. Because, if you take The Western Mail, for example, it’s completely clear that they—that Trinity Mirror—has made a decision to go digital, because they don’t worry much about their print sales. It’s very difficult, then, when you’re small, because we don’t have any influence over WHSmith. Sometimes, they’ll try and help us, but we can’t try to tell them how to run their business. So, then, I don’t know how to sort this out. There is also the problem of a shortage of shops and so on, and that affects them as well. I am afraid, in terms of print, that it is an industry that is changing a lot, and I’m afraid that there will only be some things left in print in the end, and that things like current news will only be available on screen. We’ll all, somehow, have to adapt to that.
[273] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am roi tystiolaeth. Os nad oes unrhyw beth arall, rydym ni’n mynd i ddod â’r sesiwn i ben. Mae’n siŵr y byddwn ni’n cysylltu â chi os oes mwy o wybodaeth yn angenrheidiol arnom fel rhan o’r ymchwiliad, ond diolch yn fawr am ddod i mewn atom heddiw.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you much for your evidence. If there’s nothing else you’d like to add, then we will bring our session to a close. I’m sure we will contact you if we do need further information as part of our inquiry, but many thanks for joining us today.
[274] Mr Iorwerth: Diolch yn fawr.		Mr Iorwerth: Thank you.
[275] Mr Rhys: Diolch yn fawr.		Mr Rhys: Thank you.
[276] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n mynd i gael seibiant arall. Diolch.		Bethan Jenkins: We will take another break now. Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:20 ac 11:27. The meeting adjourned between 11:20 and 11:27.
Trwydded Weithredu Drafft ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus y BBC yn y DU: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth gyda Phwyllgor Cynghori Ofcom Draft Operating Licence for the BBC’s UK Public Services: Evidence Session with the Ofcom Advisory Committee
[277] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen gyda’n hymchwiliad i’r drwydded weithredu drafft ar gyfer gwasanaeth cyhoeddus y BBC yn y Deyrnas Unedig—y sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda phwyllgor cynghori Ofcom. Diolch eto i Glyn Mathias, cadeirydd pwyllgor cynghori Ofcom, a Hywel Wiliam, aelod o bwyllgor cynghori Ofcom, am ddod mewn atom, ac ar fyr rybudd hefyd.		Bethan Jenkins: We move on with our inquiry into the draft operating licence for the BBC’s UK public services. This is the evidence session with the Ofcom advisory committee. Thank you again to Glyn Mathias, chair of the Ofcom advisory committee, and Hywel Wiliam, a member of the Ofcom advisory committee, for coming here this morning at short notice.
[278] Rydym ni wedi cael Ofcom mewn, yn amlwg, yn barod ar hyn, ond rydym ni eisiau clywed eich barn chi fel pwyllgor cynghori. Y cwestiwn cyntaf sydd gyda ni yw: i ba raddau ydych chi’n gallu disgwyl i’r dull reoleiddio newydd a gynigir gan Ofcom gyflawni newid sylweddol o ran y portread o Gymru a bywyd Cymru ar y BBC, a hynny ar rwydwaith y Deyrnas Unedig hefyd? A oes yna fodd i chi esbonio pa gymalau yn benodol y byddech chi’n mynd atynt i gyfiawnhau’r ffaith bod y portread o Gymru yn mynd i fod yn ddigonol yn hynny o beth?		We have had evidence from Ofcom already on this, but we want to hear your views as an advisory committee. The first question I have is on the extent to which the new regulatory approach proposed by Ofcom can be expected to achieve a step change in terms of the portrayal of Wales and Welsh life on the BBC, and on the UK network as well. Is there any way that you can explain what specific clauses you would identify that would justify that the portrayal of Wales would be sufficient in that context?
[279] Mr Mathias: If I could answer that first of all, our view of the draft operating licence as a whole is very positive—that it will lead to an effective regulatory regime over the BBC. We welcome in particular not just issues around the first-run original content, and the emphasis on first-run original content, and the emphasis on distinctiveness against other broadcasters, but in particular—and you will have seen this yourselves—the emphasis on programmes in the nations and the representation and portrayal of the nations across the United Kingdom. I would say that we have continually pressed as a committee, over the last decade that I have been there, that Ofcom in London should understand that the broadcasting market in Wales is different from the broadcasting market in London or anywhere else in the United Kingdom, for that matter. It has different frailties, shall we say, and different requirements. I think that that pressure over the years has had an impression, and we’re particularly pleased that, this time, Ofcom produced a separate paper on Wales. It’s one operating licence, but the section on Wales is very helpful and very useful, and helps to concentrate our minds on what the main issues are. I will refer to one thing in particular that we’re very pleased to see. We wanted to see the requirements in the document refer in particular to the new promises of investment by Tony Hall, the director general of the BBC, for a wider range of programmes and genres in non-news programming, and we’re particularly pleased to see that the reference in the document is to a wide range of genres, including drama, comedy, sports and indigenous language broadcasting. And we’re very pleased to see that after the pressure we put on them.
11:30
[280] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Hywel, unrhyw sylwadau cychwynnol?		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Hywel, any opening remarks?
[281] Mr Wiliam: I ategu’r hyn mae Glyn wedi’i ddweud, beth rydym yn teimlo’n hyderus amdano fe yw ein bod yn gobeithio, yn enwedig gyda’r newidiadau rydym wedi’u cynnig, y bydd modd i’r gwasanaeth ar gyfer Cymru gynrychioli yn gywir, a chynnig portread dilys o fywyd yng Nghymru, ac rydym yn gweld hynny yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn yr ystod o genres mae Glyn newydd sôn amdano. Mae angen cael gwasanaeth cynhwysfawr reit ar draws bywyd yng Nghymru, felly.		Mr Wiliam: Just to endorse Glyn’s comments, what we’re confident of is, given the changes that we’ve proposed, that the service for Wales can accurately represent and provide a valid portrayal of Welsh life, and we do see that reflected in the range of genres to which Glyn referred. We need a comprehensive service that reflects the whole of Welsh life.
[282] Bethan Jenkins: Yn ein hadroddiad diwethaf ni ar ddarlledu yma yng Nghymru, rydym ni wedi dweud, ac mae’r BBC hefyd wedi dweud, bod angen trwydded wahanol i Gymru. Ydych chi’n credu bod y drwydded weithredol unigol ar gyfer y BBC y mae Ofcom yn mynd i fod yn rheoleiddio yn ddigonol, neu a fyddech chi’n cydymdeimlo gyda’r galwadau ar gyfer trwydded wahanol, neu drwydded unigol i Gymru yn hynny o beth?		Bethan Jenkins: In our last report on broadcasting here in Wales, we’ve said, and the BBC has also said, that there is a need for a different licence for Wales. Do you think that the a single operating licence for the BBC that Ofcom is going to be regulating for will be sufficient, or can you sympathise with the calls for a different licence or a separate licence for Wales?
[283] Mr Mathias: We have had that discussion in our committee. My own view is that, as long as the operating licence for the whole of the UK does come to terms with the different conditions and requirements in Wales, whether it’s a single document or more than one document is probably largely irrelevant.
[284] Bethan Jenkins: So, it’s more to do with—. You would see that more as a clerical—. I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
[285] Mr Mathias: It’s a filing issue.
[286] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. My understanding of a separate licence for Wales is that it would have meant that we would be able make that different in that regard, so that you’d have perhaps new or variable requirements. You wouldn’t see that, then. You would just see that you would put one document into another one instead.
[287] Mr Wiliam: Beth sy’n bwysig yw bod yna amodau penodol ar gyfer y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru, a’r ystod o wasanaethau, a bod hynny’n gallu cael ei fesur. Nid yw’r ffaith eu bod nhw mewn un dogfen, neu mewn sawl dogfen, fel mae Glyn yn ei ddweud, yn gwneud lot o wahaniaeth mewn gwirionedd. Maen bwysig hefyd ystyried bod angen gwasanaeth cynhwysfawr nid jest ar gyfer Cymru, ond hefyd gwasanaeth cynhwysfawr mewn perthynas â Chymru a gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. So, mae’n beth da mewn ffordd bod gyda chi un ddogfen sy’n dod â’r themâu yma i gyd at ei gilydd.		Mr Wiliam: What’s important is that there are specific conditions for the services in Wales, and the range of services, and that that can be measured. The fact that they are in one document rather than a number of documents doesn’t make a huge amount of difference, as Glyn said. It’s important to note that we need a comprehensive service, not just for Wales, but also, a comprehensive service in relation to Wales and the rest of the UK. So, it’s a good thing that you have that single document to bring all of these themes together.
[288] Bethan Jenkins: Ond rwy’n credu beth roeddwn i ar ddeall oedd bod wedyn cyfle i BBC Cymru gael mwy o reolaeth dros yr hyn roedden nhw’n ei wneud, nid jest bod e’n mynd i fod yn rhan o rywbeth oedd yna ta beth. Dyna beth rwy’n trio gofyn.		Bethan Jenkins: But I think what I understood was that there was then an opportunity for BBC Wales to have more control over what they were doing, rather than just it being part of something that was there anyway. That’s what I’m trying to ask.
[289] Mr Wiliam: Maen bwysig gwahaniaethu—		Mr Wiliam: It’s important to differentiate—
[290] Mr Mathias: I think you’re mistaking regulation for management. In no way must the regulatory process seek to intervene in the management of the BBC. So, the BBC produces its own budgets, it decides on programmes. The regulatory setup provides a framework that they must meet, but within that, it’s up to the BBC how to—. And whether it’s a separate document makes no difference at all to that.
[291] Bethan Jenkins: Cwestiwn arall yw: a ydych chi’n teimlo bod cynigion Ofcom wedi datblygu gyda dealltwriaeth ddigonol o’r amgylchedd cyfryngau gwahanol yng Nghymru? A ydych chi’n credu eu bod nhw wedi rhoi digon o gydnabyddiaeth i hynny yn y ddogfen?		Bethan Jenkins: Another question is: do you feel that Ofcom’s proposals have been developed with a sufficient understanding of the distinct media environment in Wales? Do you think that there is recognition of that in the document?
[292] Mr Mathias: I think it’s better than it was. I think we’ve made a lot of progress, as I mentioned earlier, in the last few years. Ofcom has gone out of its way to produce separate requirements for all the different nations in the United Kingdom, and I’m pleased that they’ve done that. Our paper, which you have seen, merely looks at the particular way in which they sought to implement these requirements in particular areas of the BBC’s broadcasting in Wales. We made various suggestions about how that could be improved. The overall process, whereby they built on the programme quotas that were in the original BBC service licences and sometimes increased them—but they have floors—and then also provided some objectives in terms of policy requirements, which the BBC must seek to achieve. That framework is a solid framework.
[293] Mr Wiliam: Mae’n werth cofio hefyd fod y ddogfen, rych chi wedi’i weld, sef ein hymateb ni i’r drwydded ddrafft, yn eithaf penodol ynglŷn â’r drwydded yna.		Mr Wiliam: It’s worth bearing in mind also that the document that you’ve seen, which is our response to the draft licence, is quite specifically on that.
[294] Yn ogystal, i fynd yn ôl at bwynt eich cwestiwn chi, byddem ni’n moyn ystyried, er enghraifft, y defnydd o gyfryngau eraill, er enghraifft gwasanaethau BBC ar-lein. Os cymerwch chi enghraifft iPlayer y BBC, beth y byddem ni’n moyn gweld yw cyfle i BBC Cymru ehangu ei bresenoldeb ar yr iPlayer, a’i amlygrwydd. Ar hyn o bryd, er enghraifft, gyda’r iPlayer, mae’r tudalen flaen yn hyrwyddo, yn eithaf cyffredinol, raglenni gorau’r gorfforaeth, fel y byddech yn ei ddisgwyl. Beth, efallai, fyddai’n dda i’w weld byddai cyfle i BBC Cymru yng Nghymru allu creu fersiwn o’r iPlayer a fyddai’n hyrwyddo bach yn fwy y rhaglenni yna’n benodol ar gyfer gwylwyr yng Nghymru. Maen nhw yno, ond mae eu hamlygrwydd nhw yn weddol isel ar yr iPlayer ac mae’n lot o waith i ffeindio’r rhaglenni yna am Gymru ar hyn o bryd. Efallai bod hwnnw’n enghraifft arall o rywbeth yr ydych yn sôn amdano.		In addition, to return to the point of your question, we would want to consider, for example, the use of other media, for example the BBC online services. If you take the example of the BBC iPlayer, what we would want to see is that there would be an opportunity for BBC Cymru Wales to enhance its presence on iPlayer. For example, with the iPlayer frontpage, it’s generally promoting the corporation’s best output, as you might expect, but what would be good to see is that BBC Cymru Wales could create a version of the iPlayer, which would promote those programmes that are specifically for a Welsh audience. They are there, but they are not particularly prominent on iPlayer and it’s quite difficult to access those programmes at the moment. Perhaps that’s another example of something that you may have been alluding to.
[295] Bethan Jenkins: Grêt, diolch yn fawr iawn. Rŷm ni’n mynd i fynd at gwestiynau sydd yn fwy ynglŷn ag hynny, ond symudwn ymlaen at raglenni rhwydwaith sydd yn cael eu gwneud yng Nghymru, ac mae Jeremy yn arwain ar hyn.		Bethan Jenkins: Great, thank you. We are going to move to a few more questions on that, but we now move to network programming made in Wales, and Jermey’s leading on that.
[296] Jeremy Miles: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Can I take you through the exchange that we had with Jackie Hughes, when she came before the committee? We discussed the conditions that relate to—there were separate conditions: one relates to network expenditure and one relates to network programming, which is obviously, conceptually, a new requirement. So, looking firstly, if we may, at the network expenditure area, there have been concerns under the new charter, given that each other part of the UK has a quota for expenditure—and she acknowledged, I think, in her evidence, that Scotland, for example, is, as she put it, ‘over-indexed’, or gets more than its fair share—. Do you worry that, under the new charter, it might be the case that the effect of those criteria across other parts of the UK is to reduce network expenditure from where it is in Wales at the moment?
[297] Mr Mathias: That is a possibility. The point about these percentages is that they are floors. We wanted to make much clearer in the document that they are floors and not targets. Like all the other programme quotas, they are minima. There’s no intention by Ofcom that this would force a reduction. However, there is always a fluctuation in terms of network commissioning around the UK, but this means that it can’t fall below that level. That’s the purpose.
[298] Jeremy Miles: But it does mean—and I think you do accept this, given what you’ve just said, but just to be clear—that currently network expenditure in Wales is about 7.1 per cent and what you describe as a floor in the licence, which I accept, is 5 per cent. So, it basically means that the BBC could reduce, by just under, I think, a third, its network expenditure without Ofcom, whether it wishes to or not, being able to do anything about it. That’s the case.
[299] Mr Mathias: But the principle behind all of these floors in terms of production and programmes is that these are minima that the BBC has to exceed, and across the board, the BBC has almost invariably exceeded the minima quotas under the previous arrangements, never mind the present arrangements. There’s no suggestion that they would be obliged to reduce to 5 per cent—no suggestion at all.
[300] Jeremy Miles: No, and I’m not for a second suggesting that the licence requires them to reduce. The only point I’m making, which I think probably is clear from our exchange now, is that the licence could have been set at 7 per cent, for example, couldn’t it? And that would have enabled Ofcom to intervene, if the share that we currently enjoy reduces from where we are today. Ofcom made a decision not to do that, obviously, although I think that Jackie Hughes also said that it would be open to considering that sort of change if there were representations that were compelling.
[301] Mr Mathias: Yes, I would say that this is an ongoing process. So, for instance, the next step in this process is that the BBC has to produce their annual plan, which has to reflect the requirements in this draft operating licence. Then Ofcom will produce its final version of this plan, and then, every year, the BBC has to account for how it is meeting the various targets in these regulatory conditions. So, it is an ongoing process, which I hope will help to alleviate your concern.
[302] Mr Wiliam: Hefyd, mae’n fater o ystyried yr hyn mae’r BBC yn darparu’n bresennol. Pe bai e’n newid o’r hyn rydych chi’n sôn sy’n digwydd, byddem ni’n moyn gwybod. Byddai angen i Ofcom wybod pam fod yna leihad wedi digwydd a sut y mae hyn wedi cael ei gyfiawnhau, byddwn i’n meddwl, o fewn y fframwaith.		Mr Wiliam: Also, it is a matter of considering what the BBC is providing currently. If it changed from what you mentioned, we would want to know. Ofcom would need to know why a reduction’s happened, and why this had been justified, I would say, within the framework.
[303] Jeremy Miles: Ocê. A ydych chi’n sicr y byddech chi’n gallu gwneud hynny heb fod gyda chi’r trigger rheoleiddiol i gymryd y cam o dan y drwydded? Mae ffyrdd eraill gyda chi i wneud hynny.		Jeremy Miles: Okay. Are you sure that you would be able to do that without that regulatory trigger to take a step under the licence? There are other ways of doing that.
[304] Mr Mathias: I can assure you that the advisory committee, if nobody else, will keep close track of this.
[305] Jeremy Miles: Okay. Can I just ask you, then, about the question of network hours, finally? That’s obviously, conceptually, a kind of new requirement, isn’t it?
[306] Mr Mathias: Yes.
[307] Jeremy Miles: Do you think that the introduction of that requirement will change the profile or the genre mix, or the day-part mix, for that matter, of network programming made in Wales?
[308] Mr Mathias: You’re talking about Welsh programming on the network. Is that what you’re talking about?
[309] Jeremy Miles: Yes, exactly.
[310] Mr Mathias: Well, I mean, it—
[311] Jeremy Miles: Programming produced in Wales—
[312] Mr Mathias: Produced in Wales for the network is what you mean. Yes. Well, I mean, there is far more emphasis in this document than there ever has been in any previous Ofcom document that I have ever come across on the importance of authentically and accurately portraying the different nations of the UK. This is a step change in the regulatory approach to this.
[313] Jeremy Miles: That is true, and I accept that. Just to clarify my question: I’m asking effectively about the economic impact rather than portraying—
[314] Mr Wiliam: Roeddwn i’n mynd i ddweud, mae yna elfennau y prynhawn yma—		Mr Wiliam: I was going to say, there are elements this afternoon—
[315] Jeremy Miles: I accept the point you’re making, but I’m on a different track.
[316] Mr Wiliam: Mae hynny’n bwynt da, rwy’n credu. Mae yna fanteision economaidd i gynhyrchu rhaglenni ar gyfer y rhwydwaith efallai yn cael eu cynhyrchu gan gwmnïoedd neu gan y bobl sydd yn darparu’r rhaglenni’r BBC a fyddai’n mynd ar y rhwydwaith. Efallai, o reidrwydd, na fydd yna gysylltiad uniongyrchol o ran eu cynnwys nhw â Chymru, ond eu bod nhw’n cael eu cynhyrchu gan y cwmnïoedd yng Nghymru ar gyfer y rhwydwaith. Rwyf yn derbyn bod yna fudd economaidd yn hynny. Mae hynny’n gwestiwn hollol wahanol, wrth gwrs, i’r angen am gynnig portread dilys a chynrychioli’n gywir, felly.		Mr Wiliam: That’s a very good point, I think. There are economic advantages in producing programming for the network produced by companies or providers for the BBC that would be broadcast on the network and there wouldn’t necessarily have been any relationship between their content and Wales, just that they are produced by companies in Wales for the network. I do understand that there is an economic benefit to that, but that’s an entirely different question to the need for providing a valid portrayal and representing Wales.
[317] Jeremy Miles: Hollol wahanol.		Jeremy Miles: Completely different.
[318] Mr Wiliam: Beth fyddem ni’n moyn gweld, yn ddelfrydol, wrth gwrs, byddai cymysgedd o’r ddau: bod yna gyfresi’n cael eu cynhyrchu fan hyn sydd yn dweud rhywbeth am ein bywyd ni yng Nghymru ond sydd hefyd yn chwarae mas ar y rhwydwaith fel rhywbeth sydd yn addas ar gyfer y gynulleidfa rhwydwaith hynny ond sydd hefyd yn adlewyrchu bywyd fan hyn mewn rhyw ffordd. Mae yna raddau rhwng y ddau. So, mae hyn i lawr i’r BBC i weithio mas. Nid ein lle ni yw argymell ei wneud un ffordd neu’r llall.		Mr Wiliam: What we would want to see, ideally, is a mix of the two: that series were produced here that say something about our lives in Wales, but also play out on the network as something that’s appropriate for that network audience but also reflects life here in some way. There are certain degrees between the two and it’s down to the BBC to work that out. It’s not our role to say that they should do it one way or the other.
[319] Jeremy Miles: Na.		Jeremy Miles: No.
[320] Mr Wiliam: Ond wedi’i gymryd yn ei gyfanswm, mae yna gyfle fan hyn, rwy’n credu, i chi greu rhywbeth a fyddai’n gwneud y ddau: a fyddai’n creu budd economaidd ond hefyd yn gwella’r portreadu.		Mr Wiliam: But taking it in totality, I think there’s an opportunity here to create something that could do both. It would provide economic prosperity, but also improve the portrayal.
[321] Jeremy Miles: Ac yn derbyn bod hwn yn gam ymlaen, yn amlwg, beth yw’ch barn chi am ystyriaeth o’r cwestiwn o ba ran o’r amserlen, o’r schedule, a ddylai fod â mwy o fanylder? Hynny yw, os oes gyda chi gynnyrch sydd yn cael ei ddodi yn ystod y dydd, mae hynny’n cael rhyw fath o gynulleidfa. Rydych chi’n cael cynnyrch sy’n cael ei ddangos yn peak, mae hynny’n mynd i gael lot mwy, ac mae iddo werth mwy—gwerth economaidd a gwerth o ran cynrychioli. A ydych chi’n gweld bod yr ystyriaeth yn berthnasol?		Jeremy Miles: Accepting that this is a step forward, clearly, what are your views on considering the question of what part of the schedule should there be more detail in? That is, if you have content that is broadcast during the day, that has some sort of audience. If you have output that’s put out at peak hours, you’ll have many more viewers, and there’s economic value and a representative value there. Do you feel that consideration is relevant?
[322] Mr Wiliam: Mae’r ffordd y mae gwylwyr neu ddefnyddwyr yn cael eu cynnwys nhw yn newid, ac rydym ni’n gweld newid graddol yn digwydd. Ond fel mae’n sefyll, wrth gwrs, gyda theledu yn gonfensiynol, mae’r oriau brig yn dal yn bwysig iawn. Felly, yn ddelfrydol, pe byddwn i’n cynhyrchu cyfres o safon uchel, byddwn i, fel cynhyrchydd, yn moyn gweld hynny’n mynd mas yn ystod yr oriau brig. Ond fwyfwy, wrth gwrs, mae pobl yn gwylio cynnwys pan mae’n siwtio nhw ar alw, ynte, trwy jest fynd ar iPlayer neu wasanaethau tebyg? Felly, rwy’n credu yn y dyfodol bydd y cydbwysedd yna’n newid. Bydd y balans rhwng oriau brig ar ddarlledu a’r gallu i weld cynnwys ar alw yn esblygu. Mae’n ddiddorol, os edrych chi ar adroddiadau Ofcom o’r marchnadoedd cyfathrebu a’r farchnad gyfathrebu yng Nghymru, mae’n dal yn wir bod y rhan fwyaf o wylio yn dal i ddigwydd drwy ddarlledu confensiynol. Mae’r galw yn cynyddu, ond mae’n cynyddu’n weddol raddol. Felly, mae’n bwysig cael y cydbwysedd yna, rwy’n credu.		Mr Wiliam: The way that viewers are accessing material is changing. We see that happening gradually, but as it happens with television, the peak hours are still very important, so, ideally, if I was producing a high-quality series, as a producer, I would want to see that broadcast during peak hours. But more and more, people are now watching content when it suits them, simply through going on iPlayer or other platforms. So, I think in future that balance will shift: the balance between the peak hours for broadcast and the ability to access on-demand services will evolve. It is interesting, if you look at Ofcom reports in terms of the communications market in Wales, it’s still true to say that most viewing still happens through conventional means. On-demand is increasing, but it’s increasing gradually. So, it’s important to strike that balance, I think.
[323] Jeremy Miles: Ac mae’r holl syniad o raglenni rhwydwaith ynghlwm wrth y syniad o ddarlledu.		Jeremy Miles: And the whole idea of network programmes is tied in with broadcasting.
[324] Mr Wiliam: Ydy.		Mr Wiliam: Yes.
[325] Jeremy Miles: Ocê, diolch yn fawr.		Jeremy Miles: Okay, thank you very much.
[326] Thank you.
[327] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gan Suzy Davies gwestiwn ar hyn yn benodol.		Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies has a question on this specifically.
[328] Suzy Davies: Can I just take you back to the question of the floors in, naturally, both network spend and network production? They seem to me to be based roughly on the level of population in Wales vis-à-vis the rest of the UK. But if that’s true, all these floors are going to add up to a 100 per cent, aren’t they?
[329] Mr Mathias: It’s a zero-sum game, you mean?
[330] Suzy Davies: Whatever that means. [Laughter.] You can see where my question is: if we’re overdoing it in Wales, someone somewhere else is losing out, and Ofcom, locally to them, will be saying, ‘Hang on, south-east of England, you should be coming up to your minimums; you’re not even reaching your floors.’
11:45
[331] Mr Mathias: I don’t think that’s the intention—
[332] Suzy Davies: It may not be the intention—
[333] Mr Mathias: —and it’s a legitimate question to ask. We’ve asked questions about this, and they’ve made clear that that’s not the intention. The intention is to ensure that the BBC doesn’t fall below a certain level in each of the nations. However, theoretically, that’s a fair question.
[334] Suzy Davies: But, no, it’s a genuine question for Ofcom because if some other part of, let’s say, England is below its floor, surely Ofcom’s going to be on their back to say, ‘Hoy, get up to the floor’, at least, which means that someone, potentially Wales or Scotland, would have to roll back a bit.
[335] Mr Wiliam: Byddai hynny’n fwy o fater ar gyfer y BBC yn fewnol i’w ystyried o safbwynt y ffordd y maen nhw’n darparu gwasanaeth yn gyffredinol. Nid wyf yn credu y byddai’n fater y byddai’n rhaid i ni, fel pwyllgor, ei ystyried o safbwynt Cymru, felly. Beth y byddem ni’n awyddus i’w weld yw bod Cymru yn gwneud yn dda ac yn darparu cymaint o raglenni ag sydd yn bosibl, felly, a bod y cyfraniad yna yn cynyddu, yn ddelfrydol.		Mr Wiliam: That would be more of an issue for the BBC internally to consider in terms of the way they provide a service generally. I don’t think it would be a matter that we as a committee would have to consider from a Wales perspective. What we would be keen to see is Wales doing well and providing as many programmes as possible, and that that contribution increases, ideally.
[336] A allaf adio un pwynt arall i hwnnw, achos rwy’n credu efallai y byddai’n help, sef y pwynt yma ar wariant? Achos, yn y drafft lle y gwnaethom ni ei weld e, nid oeddem ni’n teimlo bod y ffordd yr oedden nhw wedi’i eirio yn ddigon cryf. Roedden nhw’n sôn yn fwy am y gallu i allu cysylltu rhwng cynhyrchiad yn cael ei wneud yn y fan hon a’i fod, ryw ffordd neu’i gilydd, yn gysylltiedig â’r diwydiant cynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Nid ydym yn credu bod hynny yn ddigon cryf. Felly, rydym wedi rhoi’r pwyslais mwyaf ar wariant, yn benodol. Rwy’n credu bod hynny’n bwysig: ein bod ni’n sicrhau mai beth ydym ni ddim yn ei foyn yw cwmnïoedd yn cynhyrchu jest mewn enw yn unig—creu swyddfa gyda bathodyn arni, troi lan a jest cynhyrchu rhywbeth dros dro ac wedyn diflannu. Ni’n moyn gweld mwy o gysylltiad rhwng hynny a beth sy’n digwydd.		Can I just add another point to that, which I think could be of assistance—this point on expenditure? Because, in the draft as we saw it, we didn’t feel that the way they’d worded it was strong enough. They were talking more about the ability to link between a production being made here and that somehow it was linked with the production industry in Wales. We don’t think that was strong enough, so we’ve put more of an emphasis on expenditure specifically. I think it’s important. What we don’t want is for companies to produce just a name, create an office, put a badge on it temporarily and then disappear. We want to see more of a link between that and what is happening.
[337] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. A ydy hynny’n iawn, Suzy? Rydych chi’n edrych yn—		Bethan Jenkins: Is that okay, Suzy? You look—
[338] Suzy Davies: I’ll come back to it in my very last question in my own session.
[339] Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.
[340] Dai Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Ie, yn ôl i’r syniad yma ar yr un trywydd o gwotas—o’r 5 y cant yma nawr—wrth gwrs, pwysigrwydd hyn oll, fel y mae Jeremy wedi ei awgrymu eisoes, ydy’r portread o Gymru. Roeddwn i’n siarad efo rhywun ar y stryd yr wythnos yma a oedd hefyd yn dal yn ddilornus o’r ffaith bod Cymru byth braidd yn cael sylw—hyd yn oed isafswm o sylw—drwy Brydain o hyd ac o hyd. Felly, a allwch chi ehangu ar yr awgrym yma y dylai’r cwotâu o 5 y cant o gynnyrch o Gymru hefyd fod ar y radio yn ogystal ag ar deledu yn y lle cyntaf?		Dai Lloyd: Thank you very much, Chair. Along the same lines in terms of the quotas and the 5 per cent, and as Jeremy suggested, the important thing here is the portrayal of Wales. I was speaking to someone this week who was still quite disappointed that Wales is getting so little attention across Britain. So, can you enhance upon that point: that there should also be a quota of 5 per cent on radio as well as television?
[341] Mr Mathias: Yes, on the issue of radio, we do think that Ofcom has been unnecessarily timid and that some form of distribution of programme production around the United Kingdom should exist for UK public radio as well as for television. I understand why it’s not there. It’s not there because there’s no history of it in radio. However, I don’t think that’s an excuse. We don’t think that’s an excuse for not attempting it now, and I think you’d have to have a gradual process of building up to a quota over the next few years. But we certainly think, in terms of radio, that that could be included.
[342] Dai Lloyd: A sut y byddech chi’n gweld hynny’n dechrau i ffwrdd? Newyddion o Gymru ar Radio 2 neu rywbeth? Sut ydych chi’n ei weld yn dechrau i ffwrdd?		Dai Lloyd: And how would you see that starting? News from Wales on Radio 2 or something? How do you envisage it starting?
[343] Mr Wiliam: Mae yna le i ddadlau bod hynny efallai yn fater i un ochr. Rwy’n gweld y pwynt. Byddai’n help o ran—. Mewn ffordd, mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn mymryn yn wahanol. Mae hwnnw yn fwy i wneud â fel mae gwrandawyr yng Nghymru nawr yn gwrando ar wasanaethau. Rydym ni yn gwybod o ymchwil y BBC mai dim ond canran, efallai, a fydd yn gwrando ar Radio Wales a Radio Cymru. Gan fod Radio 2 mor boblogaidd yng Nghymru mae’n bosib i chi wrando ar y gwasanaeth yma ac efallai dysgu braidd dim, wir, am fywyd a newyddion yng Nghymru.		Mr Wiliam: One could argue that that is an issue. I see the point. It would be of assistance. In a way, that’s a slightly different question. It’s more to do with how listeners in Wales currently access services. We know, from BBC research, that only a percentage will listen to Radio Wales and Radio Cymru, and because Radio 2 is so popular in Wales you can listen to that service and learn virtually nothing about Wales.
[344] Dai Lloyd: Dim byd am Gymru.		Dai Lloyd: Nothing about Wales.
[345] Mr Wiliam: Felly, rydym ni yn credu y byddai’n werthfawr iawn bod yna fwletinau penodol am Gymru ar Radio 2 ar gyfer pobl sydd yn gwrando yng Nghymru.		Mr Wiliam: So, we think it would be very valuable if there were specifically Welsh bulletins on Radio 2 for those listeners in Wales.
[346] Dai Lloyd: Dyna ni. A jest i ddilyn y pwynt yn sylfaenol ynglŷn â chwota o beth bynnag yw’r ffigwr, pa risg sydd yno y gall cynyrchiadau sydd wedi cael eu gwneud mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol o dan fathodyn y BBC gael eu bathodynnu, efallai, fel petaent yn dod o Gymru, ac wrth gwrs, i’r gwrthwyneb, y cynyrchiadau hynny sydd eisoes yn cael eu gwneud yng Nghymru ond sydd byth braidd yn sôn am Gymru? Sut ydych chi’n cysoni’r ddau beth? Nid fy mod yn awgrymu y dylai Daleks fod yn ddwyieithog neu unrhyw beth, ond rydych yn dilyn y pwynt, hynny yw.		Dai Lloyd: Just to follow the point, basically, about quotas, whatever the figure is, what risk is there that productions that have been made in other parts of the UK under the BBC badge be badged perhaps as if they come from Wales, and then, on the other hand, those productions that are already produced in Wales but never usually mention Wales? How do you bring consistency into that? Not that I’m suggesting that the Daleks should be bilingual or anything, but you follow my point.
[347] Mr Mathias: Could I just add to the previous question, if I might, which I particularly want to do? Because my understanding on the question of Welsh opt-out bulletins on Radio 2 is that the BBC is still currently considering this matter but that it does involve extra funding beyond the money that the BBC has so far promised, and that this funding is required not just for the extra journalistic input but also for the technical issues around transmitters and muxes and so on. We, as a committee, are exceedingly keen that they do press ahead with this, because one of the big issues around broadcasting in Wales and the audience is the audience that doesn’t listen to Welsh programmes. To get bulletins—at the very least opt-out bulletins—on Radio 2 is vitally important and we’re pressing for them to—. But that is a matter for the BBC, I hasten to say very quickly. That’s not a matter for Ofcom. That is a matter for the BBC. Sorry, now I’ve forgotten what the question was. I’m so sorry.
[348] Dai Lloyd: Welsh-speaking Daleks. That’s a matter for the BBC as well, I suppose.
[349] Mr Mathias: We do suggest that the wording around that is strengthened and we do suggest a particular way that could be done. There have been plenty of examples in the past of most of the work on Welsh network programmes actually being done in London—particularly post-production—and we think that it should be made absolutely clear that if it’s badged as made in Wales, money should be spent in Wales. We would like to see that actually specifically made clear.
[350] Mr Wiliam: Mae gan Ofcom brofiad o hyn, wrth gwrs, mewn cyd-destun darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus eraill, a lot o brofiad a lot o ymarfer da wedi eu datblygu gan Ofcom. Mae yna record dda gan Ofcom o allu sgrwtineiddio hyn a gwneud yn siŵr bod eu canllawiau nhw yn cael eu dilyn o safbwynt sut ydych chi’n cyfrif rhywbeth fel ei fod wedi cael ei gynhyrchu o fewn Cymru.		Mr Wiliam: Ofcom does have experience of this in the context of other public service broadcasters, and a great deal of experience and a great deal of good practice has been developed by Ofcom. Ofcom has a good record in scrutinising this and ensuring that the guidance is followed in terms of how you assess something as having been produced in Wales.
[351] Bethan Jenkins: Jest imi ddeall eich sylwad ynglŷn â’r opt-out, rydych chi’n dweud ei fod lan i’r BBC, so ni fyddai yna ddim ffordd realistig lle mae Ofcom yn gallu dweud—neu bod yr ymgynghoriad, efallai, yn gallu newid y system fel bod hynny’n angenrheidiol a bod hynny’n dod mewn i’r system rheoleiddio. Ni fyddai hynny ddim yn realistig. Penderfyniad y BBC ynddi hi ei hun fyddai hynny, beth bynnag sydd yn digwydd gyda’r rheoleiddio.		Bethan Jenkins: Just for me to understand your comment regarding the opt-out, you said that it is for the BBC to decide, so there wouldn’t be a realistic way that Ofcom could say—or that the consultation could change the system so that would be necessary and so that would come into the regulatory system. It would be a BBC decision in and of itself, independent of regulation.
[352] Mr Wiliam: Yn union. Mae’n dangos y gwahaniaeth rhwng rheoleiddio a rheoli, mewn ffordd.		Mr Wiliam: Exactly. It shows the difference between regulation and management.
[353] Bethan Jenkins: So, jest eich barn chi fel pwyllgor yw hi y byddai’n rhywbeth defnyddiol.		Bethan Jenkins: So, it’s just your opinion as a committee that it would be useful.
[354] Mr Mathias: Yes.
[355] Mr Wiliam: Ie, yn bendant.		Mr Wiliam: Yes, definitely.
[356] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê, jest imi ddeall y gwahaniaeth.		Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to understand the difference there.
[357] Mae gan Dawn Bowden gwpwl o gwestiynau nawr. Diolch.		Dawn Bowden has some questions now.
[358] Dawn Bowden: Thank you, Chair. I think you’ve answered, probably, the issues around representation, unless you’ve got anything else you want to add. But I think the Welsh-speaking Daleks is a great idea. You should patent that idea, it’s great. But following on from Dai’s last question, I just wonder whether the BBC Studios development in any way restricts or impacts on the control that you’ve got—the ability to control where BBC productions actually take place or where the BBC expenditure is spent.
[359] Mr Mathias: Well, the point about regulation is that the BBC has to fulfil their regulatory requirements regardless of how they do it and so the BBC Studios issue is actually irrelevant to fulfilling the requirements of the regulation.
[360] Dawn Bowden: Okay, so you’ve got total control, or the BBC will have total control over that in terms of where that—
[361] Mr Wiliam: Mae’n fater mewnol i’r BBC i weithio mas sut maen nhw’n mynd i gydymffurfio â beth sydd angen iddyn nhw ei wneud ynglŷn â’r drwydded. Ond mater mewnol i’r BBC fyddai hynny.		Mr Wiliam: It’s an internal matter for the BBC to work out how they’re going to comply with what is required of them with the licence. But that is an internal matter for the BBC.
[362] Dawn Bowden: Because going back to the point that Glyn Mathias was making, if it’s not made in Wales, it can’t be badged as Wales. So, we don’t want to see productions in other BBC studios being badged as Wales if they’re not here.
[363] Mr Mathias: I would just add that one of the big issues around representation and portrayal, which are basically two sides of the same coin—and particularly portrayal—is how you quantify it. That’s one of the difficult issues here. Ofcom is producing a whole series of performance measures by which they will seek to assess the extent to which the BBC has fulfilled its regulatory requirements, and a lot of that, in terms of portrayal, will be public opinion surveys and so on. My own view on this issue is that public opinion surveys have a certain weakness. You’re asking the public to distinguish a particularly fine point. Do they like BBC programmes? Do they think Wales is particularly well portrayed in the BBC? These issues may get slightly confused. So, my own view is that this should be strengthened as much as possible. The BBC, for instance, must have started collecting its own data on how it is fulfilling these requirements, which they are obliged to fulfil. We could begin the assessment by assessing the BBC data, which they will be obliged to produce every single year.
[364] Dawn Bowden: Okay, thank you.
[365] Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, ar yr amodau rheoleiddio eraill.		Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, on the other regulatory conditions.
[366] Suzy Davies: I think you just started to talk a little bit about this, but I would like you to say more, if possible. Jeremy has already distinguished between the economic obligations of the floors that we were talking about earlier. Regulating portrayal, in particular, must be phenomenally difficult. Representation, perhaps, is a little bit easier, because that’s a quantifiable rather than a qualitative judgement, isn’t it? Can you tell us a bit more about these performance measures that you’re thinking of introducing? How light-touch can they be, lest you’re accused of wandering into management rather than governance?
[367] Mr Mathias: I have to say, we’re not introducing it, for a start—just to make a distinction.
[368] Suzy Davies: Okay—I need a little help with this one. You’re going to have to make sure that they’re complied with, so you don’t want it to be too big, do you?
[369] Mr Mathias: The performance measures are designed to assess—they are a methodology for assessing whether the BBC is complying or not. In terms of portrayal, public opinion surveys are the best. We particularly recommend that the wording in this area be strengthened, and we suggest that the BBC is obliged, every single year, to produce the data that shows that they are delivering against these requirements.
[370] Suzy Davies: The measurability of it.
[371] Mr Mathias: Yes, as the starting point for measuring.
[372] Suzy Davies: You have, not directly, but—. There’s no input from you about what those performance measures data sets should look like.
[373] Mr Mathias: I can only refer you to—. There is a document on performance measures, which I cannot recite to you.
[374] Suzy Davies: No, it’s all right; I wouldn’t remember anyway. Can I just ask you, then, about BBC One Wales and BBC Two Wales? You’ve indicated that you’re a bit unhappy at the moment with how non-news programming is balanced between those two. What would you be advising on this?
[375] Mr Mathias: The basic position—. I’ll start with the bottom line, which is that the BBC must be free to organise its programmes within the regulatory requirements, and that the management of programming is down to the BBC. However, we are concerned that the balance as to where the programmes—this increased number of non-news programmes that has been promised by the BBC—where they should appear. We’re concerned that the balance in the minimum quotas between BBC One and BBC Two is not correct. We would like to see it much nearer the Scottish balance, which has more minimum hours on BBC One than BBC Two. These are minimum hours; they wouldn’t necessarily unduly restrict the BBC for where it can place programmes. However, it is a kind of guide, and I would like to see more emphasis on the new non-news programming going onto BBC One.
[376] Suzy Davies: I’m very conscious of what Hywel Wiliam said as well: that despite the definite direction that a lot more stuff is going online, and people are producing their own playlists, there’s still a sufficient proportion of the population that sits down in front of the telly, and that makes this important.
[377] Mr Mathias: It is important, because the biggest audience is for BBC One Wales, not BBC Two Wales, and if the purpose of the exercise is to engage the Welsh audience with issues around Welsh society, Welsh politics and all the rest of it, then, as much as possible, that should be on BBC One. So, this guideline as to the minimum quotas, I think, gives the wrong signal.
[378] Mr Wiliam: Pan rydych chi’n edrych ar yr allbwn presennol, rydych chi’n gallu gweld bod y mwyafrif o’r rhaglenni am Gymru yn cael eu darlledu ar BBC Un Cymru, nid BBC Dau. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae’n werth cofio—jest dros dro, ond mae e yn bwynt i ystyried—nid yw’r gwasanaeth BBC Dau Cymru mewn diffiniad uchel. Mae hwnnw yn cael ei ddarlledu mewn diffiniad safonol. So, mae yna lot o resymau pam y byddech chi’n moyn dewis, fel cynhyrchydd, i gael eich rhaglen chi ar BBC Un Cymru, yn benodol, os yn bosib, felly.		Mr Wiliam: When you look at current output, you can see that most of the programmes about Wales are broadcast on BBC One Wales, not BBC Two Wales. It’s worth bearing in mind that BBC Two Wales isn’t in high definition; it’s only available in standard definition. So, there are a number of reasons why you would choose, as a producer, to have your programming on BBC One Wales, if at all possible.
[379] Suzy Davies: Ocê, diolch am hynny.		Suzy Davies: Okay, than you for that.
[380] I’ve got two more questions, if that’s all right. The first one is about online, actually, because there is a growing audience for online and pick-as-you-choose viewing. Do you think there should be—? What are your views about the regulation of online content, particularly, at the moment? Or regulatory conditions, generally, if I can put it like that.
[381] Mr Mathias: Well, we do suggest that the wording in the document in the section on Wales is very weak on online. We do, in our paper, suggest a different formulation, which we think would be more up to date and more appropriate. It is something I suspect that’s been lifted from a previous service licence, and they just need to look at this, and we’re urging that they look at this again, not just to ensure that it provides an adequate service. We’re also particularly keen that it should mention educational support—Bitesize—because the Welsh curriculum is different from the English curriculum, and therefore Bitesize on our BBC Wales iPlayer is going to be different from the Bitesize in England. So, there are a number of issues around online that we think should be better reflected in the regulatory requirement.
12:00
[382] Suzy Davies: I completely agree with that point, actually, but is there going to be anything in the—? Would you advise that the regulatory conditions include something about signposting on that? Because your average Welsh youngster will still go to just BBC online, not BBC Wales online. So, it’s not just about having the content in the right place; it’s knowing where the right place is.
[383] Mr Mathias: I think that’s a very sensible suggestion. I haven’t included that, but that could be a very useful suggestion.
[384] Suzy Davies: Thank you. My final question is: what can you do when people don’t meet their regulatory conditions? What can you do when people are ignoring you?
[385] Mr Mathias: Ofcom can—
[386] Suzy Davies: Yes, I know it’s Ofcom. Sorry. What would you advise Ofcom to do in the circumstances where people are ignoring you?
[387] Mr Mathias: Well, it’s quite clear; it’s in the document. If Ofcom is not satisfied that the BBC has fulfilled the requirements, they can ultimately sanction them and fine them in order to—. And this is not new. All the broadcasting licences that Ofcom regulates have this power to sanction. Indeed, we have sanctioned—Ofcom has sanctioned—a number of broadcasters for not observing the requirements in their licence. The same will apply to the BBC. However, I suspect that that is unlikely to occur very soon, and unlikely to occur, but the power is there.
[388] Suzy Davies: The reason I asked it is because I’m not quite sure whether I’m on the same page as you in saying that mistakes—let’s call them that—aren’t likely to occur. I think, with the combination of requiring improved representation and portrayal and the potential for reduced actual investment in BBC Wales broadcasting—no, sorry, network production here—could lead to the BBC having to choose between: does it put money into drama on BBC Two Wales or does it say, ‘Right, I’m just running out of network production obligation money here, I shall go and make something cheap and cheerful that can be nothing to do with Wales and just plonked on the network somewhere late at night’?
[389] Mr Mathias: The only answer I would give to that is this: that in previous times, the BBC has been noted for cutting at the margins and the fringes and then backwards towards the centre. The reduction in BBC Wales’s budget over the last few years up to the present new commitment is an illustration of that. What these regulatory requirements will help to do is reduce the likelihood of that happening.
[390] Suzy Davies: Okay. Thank you.
[391] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Rydym yn symud ymlaen at fesurau perfformiad, ac mae gan Hannah gwestiynau.		Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We move on to performance measures, and Hannah has questions.
[392] Hannah Blythyn: In addition to the enforceable regulatory conditions, there’s also this wider set of performance measures that have been outlined. Do you think that Ofcom’s proposals to assess the BBC’s performance against its public purpose, which is to
[393] ‘reflect, represent and service the diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom’s nations and regions and, in doing so, support the creative economy across the United Kingdom’
[394] —does that go far enough?
[395] Mr Wiliam: Wel, mae hwn, wrth gwrs, yn un o’r pump o ddibenion cyhoeddus gan y BBC. Felly mae hynny’n helpu i greu fframwaith ar gyfer sut y mae’r BBC yn cael ei reoleiddio. Felly, mae’n rhywbeth y bydd Ofcom, wrth gwrs, yn ei gymryd o ddifrif ac yn ei weld yn bwysig iawn, iawn, felly. Byddai gallu mesur hyn—. Mae’r sgwrs yr ydym newydd ei chael, wrth gwrs—. Er enghraifft, sut ydych chi’n asesu a mesur y gwahaniaeth rhwng, er enghraifft, portreadu neu gynrychioli? Mae yna elfennau rydych chi’n gallu eu mesur ac mae yna elfennau sydd yn fwy dibynnol, efallai, ar fewnbwn ymchwil—ymchwil gan y BBC, ymchwil gan Ofcom, ymchwil gyda’r cyhoedd—ac wedi hynny creu darlun llawn o’r ddarpariaeth, ac wedi hynny asesu a yw hynny’n ddigonol ai peidio, felly. Mae’n broses reoleiddiol sydd yn gorfod cael ei gwneud dros gyfnod, ond y mae wedi’i seilio, yn y lle cyntaf, ar y dystiolaeth y byddai’r BBC yn ei darparu ar y pwynt yna, ac wedyn byddai Ofcom yn adeiladu arno fe. Felly, mae yna gynllun blynyddol, fe fydd yna adolygiad o’r cynllun, adroddiad blynyddol bob blwyddyn, ac mae’r elfennau yma i gyd yn bwydo i mewn i’r broses yna o reoleiddio ac asesu.		Mr Wiliam: Well, of course, this is one of the five core purposes, and that creates a framework for the regulation of the BBC. This is something that Ofcom takes very seriously and sees as being very important. Being able to measure that—. In terms of the conversation we’ve just had, of course—. How do you assess and measure the difference, for example, between portrayal and representation? There are elements that can be measured but there are elements that are more reliant on research—research from the BBC, from Ofcom, research with the public—and then that creates that bigger picture of the provision, and then you can assess whether that is adequate or not. That’s a regulatory process that has to be carried out over a period of time, but it is based initially on the evidence provided by the BBC at that point, and then Ofcom would build on that. So, there is an annual plan, there would be a revision of the plan, an annual report, and all of these elements feed into that regulatory process and the process of assessment.
[396] Hannah Blythyn: So, how will that process and the plan and report be used to drive improvements in that area?
[397] Mr Mathias: Partly because Ofcom doesn’t—. The staff don’t go home after producing the final document. They’re there to constantly monitor and measure what the BBC is doing as to the various performance measures that we’ve described—or failed to describe, as the case may be. The annual plan and the powers of investigation, which Ofcom has—they don’t have to wait for an annual plan if they’re concerned about a particular issue; they can investigate and find out what’s going on. So, as Hywel says, it’s an ongoing process.
[398] Hannah Blythyn: Just one final question from me: what role can and should the National Assembly for Wales play in feeding into Ofcom’s assessments of the BBC’s performance?
[399] Mr Mathias: I think the National Assembly for Wales, as you already do, should ask the BBC to come and account for their services in Wales on a regular basis, and you should also ask Ofcom to come on a regular basis and account for their administration of the regulatory document that we’ve got here.
[400] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gen i gwpwl o gwestiynau ychwanegol. Rydych chi wedi dweud fel pwyllgor ymgynghori y dylai’r amodau rheoleiddio gynnwys y 10 awr o gynnwys yr wythnos y mae’r BBC o dan orfodaeth statudol i’w darparu i S4C, a hefyd datganiad ei bod yn ofynnol i Radio Cymru fod yn wasanaeth Cymraeg dynodedig. I ba raddau ydych chi'n credu y byddai'r newidiadau hyn yn helpu cynulleidfaoedd Cymru?		Bethan Jenkins: I have a couple of additional questions. You have said, as an advisory committee, that regulatory conditions should include the 10 hours of content a week that the BBC is under a statutory requirement to provide for S4C, and also a statement that it’s a requirement for Radio Cymru to be a dedicated Welsh language service. To what extent do you think these changes would assist Welsh audiences?
[401] Mr Wiliam: Rŷm ni’n sôn ar ddiwedd ein hymateb ni am S4C. Mae beth sy'n berthnasol i S4C, wrth gwrs, i gyd mewn statud yn barod, felly rwy’n credu, os o gwbl, jest mater yw hi o gynnwys cymalau sy'n dweud, ‘Am hwn, gwelwch yr adran berthnasol o Ddeddf Cyfathrebu 2003’, er enghraifft. Yn achos Radio Cymru, wrth gwrs, beth rŷm ni’n poeni am yw nad yw’r geirio’n hollol glir. Mae'n bwysig gwneud y pwynt ei fod yn wasanaeth iaith Gymraeg a jest mater technegol oedd hynny i wneud yn siŵr bod y geiriau’n iawn.		Mr Wiliam: At the end of our response, we mention S4C. What’s relevant for S4C is all contained within statute already, so I think if at all, it’s just a matter of including clauses that say, ‘For this, see the relevant section of the Communications Act 2003’. In the case of Radio Cymru, of course, what we’re concerned about there is that the wording isn’t entirely clear. It’s important to make the point that it is a Welsh language service and that was just a technicality in terms of ensuring that the wording was correct.
[402] Bethan Jenkins: Y cwestiwn arall sydd gen i—ac fe wnes i ofyn hyn i Ofcom y tro diwethaf—yw: yn amlwg, mae hyn yn rhywbeth y bydd Ofcom yn ganolog yn rheoleiddio, ond pa fewnbwn ydych chi’n credu y byddai Ofcom Cymru yn ei gael? A oes yna ddigon o adnoddau i allu rhoi tystiolaeth neu gymorth i Ofcom yn ganolog, neu a ydych chi’n credu, efallai, y dylai rôl Ofcom Cymru fod yn fwy yn hynny o beth? Oherwydd rydym yn siarad am bortreadu Cymru, rydym yn siarad am bethau efallai y byddai Ofcom Cymru yn deall yn well nag Ofcom sydd ddim yma yng Nghymru, o ran staffio ac yn y blaen. Beth yw eich barn chi ar hynny, gan fod mwy o reoleiddio yn awr yn mynd i ddigwydd i’r BBC yng Nghymru yn benodol?		Bethan Jenkins: The other question I have, and what I asked Ofcom last time, is: this is something that Ofcom, centrally, will be regulating, but what input do you think that Ofcom Wales would have? Are there sufficient resources to provide evidence or assistance to Ofcom centrally, or do you think, perhaps, that the role of Ofcom Wales should be more in that sense? Because we’re talking about the portrayal of Wales and we’re talking about things, perhaps, that Ofcom Wales would understand better than Ofcom that isn’t here in Wales, in terms of staffing and so forth. What are your views on that, because more regulation is going to happen now in terms of the BBC in Wales specifically?
[403] Mr Mathias: I think Ofcom constantly listens—it is obliged to listen to representations made by the staff at Ofcom Wales, as they are obliged to listen to the representations made by our advisory committee. It’s an ongoing, regular process, which has, as I previously described, helped to produce more emphasis on the nations than previously existed. I don’t think it’s our role to talk about the numbers of staff at Ofcom Wales—that is a matter for them—but the input from Wales is consistent.
[404] Mr Wiliam: O safbwynt y pwyllgor ymgynghorol, mae yna ddigon o dystiolaeth i ddangos bod y pwyllgor yn cael dylanwad ac yn gallu helpu i ddatblygu ac addasu polisi Ofcom. So, mae yna dystiolaeth gryf i ddangos hynny.		Mr Wiliam: In terms of the advisory committee, there’s enough evidence to show that the committee is having an influence and can develop and change Ofcom policy. There’s clear evidence of that.
[405] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi wedi gweld newid ers y penodiad o Gymru i fwrdd canolog Ofcom? A ydych chi’n credu y bydd hynny hefyd yn helpu o ran cynrychiolaeth o Gymru’n ganolog?		Bethan Jenkins: Have you seen a change since there’s been an appointment from Wales on Ofcom’s central board? Do you think that that will also assist in terms of the representation of Wales on a central level?
[406] Mr Mathias: Undoubtedly it will do so, because the process won’t be quite so much pushing from the bottom upwards, but there will be somebody at board level who will also have an understanding of these issues. So, it’s bound to assist, and the advisory committee has pressed for some years now for that appointment to take place.
[407] Bethan Jenkins: Nid wyf i’n credu bod yna gwestiynau eraill, felly diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Os oes unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol, byddwn ni’n siŵr o gysylltu â chi. Ond rydym ni’n bwriadu rhoi tystiolaeth i mewn hefyd fel rhan o’r broses yma, felly byddwn ni’n hapus i ddanfon unrhyw beth atoch chi yn y man, hefyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.	Bethan Jenkins: I don’t think there are any further questions, so, thank you very much. If there are any additional questions, I’m sure we’ll get in touch with you. But we intend to provide evidence as part of this process, and we would be happy to send you anything in the meantime, as well. Thank you very much.
12:10
Papurau i'w Nodi Papers to Note
[408] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 5, papurau i’w nodi, ac mae papur 5.1, ymateb Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i adroddiad ein pwyllgor ni ‘Y Darlun Mawr: Safbwyntiau Cychwynnol y Pwyllgor ar Ddarlledu yng Nghymru’ gennych chi yn eich pecyn. A oes unrhyw sylwad am yr ymateb hwnnw? Na, dim ar hyn o bryd—	Bethan Jenkins: We move on to item 5, papers to note, and paper 5.1, the UK Government response to the committee’s report ‘The Big Picture: The Committee's Initial Views on Broadcasting in Wales’—you have that paper in your pack. Are there any comments on that response? No, not at the moment—
[409] Suzy Davies: I did have one observation, actually, which is—[Inaudible.] On the iPlayer, I would probably agree with him. I’ve just been checking now and S4C is quite easy to find on the iPlayer, but in terms of smart televisions, S4C is disadvantaged compared with Channel 4—not on normal tvs, but certainly there. So, I don’t think that’s a whole answer, if I can put it like that.
[410] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi eisiau cadw hyn at pan rydym ni’n dod at gasgliadau yn yr adolygiad S4C?	Bethan Jenkins: Do you want to keep this until we come to a conclusion on our S4C review?
[411] Suzy Davies: It’s just an observation for the record at this stage.
[412] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê, diolch.	Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thanks.
[413] Wedyn mae papur 5.2 ar ddyfodol S4C—rhagor o wybodaeth gan BECTU. Rwy’n siŵr eich bod chi wedi darllen y llythyr hwnnw. Mae BECTU yn dweud, yn unol â ni yn ysgrifennu at Tinopolis, eu bod nhw eisiau cael nodyn gan Tinopolis mewn ymateb i’w sylwadau nhw gerbron y pwyllgor. Ond, jest ar gyfer y record, nid ydym ni wedi cael unrhyw beth nôl gan Tinopolis yn ymateb i gonsyrn BECTU. Rydym ni wedi cyfathrebu hynny wrth BECTU yn barod, drwy gyfathrebiaeth, ond jest er mwyn eich bod chi’n ymwybodol o hynny.	Then we have paper 5.2 on the future of S4C—further information from BECTU. I’m sure you’ve read that letter. BECTU says that, in addition to our writing to Tinopolis, they want to have a note from Tinopolis in response to their comments before the committee. But, just for the record, we haven’t had anything back from Tinopolis in response to BECTU’s concern. We have communicated that to BECTU already through correspondence, but just so that you’re aware of that.
[414] Jeremy Miles: So mae Tinopolis wedi cael gwahoddiad i ymateb i’r llythyr yma ac nid ydyn nhw wedi dewis ymateb, neu nid ydyn nhw wedi ymateb hyd yn hyn.	Jeremy Miles: So, Tinopolis have been invited to respond to this letter and they haven’t responded, or not yet—is that the case?
[415] Bethan Jenkins: Nid ydyn nhw wedi ymateb. Rydym ni wedi rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw ymateb ac nid ydym ni wedi cael unrhyw ymateb er mwyn iddyn nhw geisio cyfiawnhau, efallai, rhai rhannau o dystiolaeth a oedd wedi cael eu rhoi nad oedd BECTU yn hapus â nhw. Roeddwn i jest eisiau rhoi hynny ar y record ichi. Os oes unrhyw beth rydych chi eisiau inni ei wneud, rydym ni’n hapus i—.	Bethan Jenkins: They haven’t responded. We’ve given them that opportunity, but we haven’t received a response for them to justify the evidence that they provided that BECTU wasn’t particularly happy with. I just wanted to put that on the record for you. If there’s anything that you want us to do, we are happy to do so.
[416] Jeremy Miles: Yr unig beth y byddwn i’n ei ddweud—nid yn benodol yng nghyd-destun yr anghytundeb yma rhwng BECTU a Tinopolis—ond rwy’n treulio lot o amser yn trafod rôl S4C mewn datblygu sgiliau a datblygu’r gweithlu ac ati, a’r effaith economaidd. Os ydy’r dystiolaeth yn mynd i ddangos nad yw cwmnïau, ar y cyfan, yn ymwneud ag undebau yn eu meysydd nhw, rwy’n credu bod hynny’n rhywbeth y dylem ni gael trafodaeth bellach amdano fe fel pwyllgor ac edrych ar oblygiadau hynny.	Jeremy Miles: All I would say, not specifically in the context of this disagreement between BECTU and Tinopolis—I spend a lot of time discussing the role of S4C in developing skills and developing the workforce and so forth, and economic impact. If the evidence is going to show that companies, on the whole, aren’t involved with unions in their areas, then I think that’s something we need further discussion on as a committee, and to look at the implications of that.
[417] Bethan Jenkins: Mae hynny’n iawn. Wrth inni ddod at gasgliad ar yr adolygiad hwnnw, efallai y gallem ni drafod hynny fel argymhelliad hefyd. Ond rwy’n cymryd y pwynt: os nad yw cwmnïau yn mynd i ymwneud â’r undebau llafur, sut, felly, ydyn nhw’n mynd i ddeall beth yw’r hyn sydd yn amharu neu yn effeithio ar eu bywydau nhw?	Bethan Jenkins: That’s fine. As we come to a conclusion on that inquiry, perhaps we could discuss that as a possible recommendation. But I do take your point: if companies aren’t going to engage with the trade unions, how are they going to understand what the problems and impacts are?
[418] Jeremy Miles: Yn enwedig mewn cyd-destun lle mae’r diwydiant, ar y cyfan, yn ddiwydiant llawrydd, ac felly mae’r berthynas rhwng cyflogwyr a staff, a dweud y gwir, yn hollol wahanol i sectorau eraill.	Jeremy Miles: Particularly in a context where the industry, as a whole, is freelance, and the relationship between employers and staff is very different to other sectors.
[419] Bethan Jenkins: Wel, mae’n siŵr y gallwn ni edrych ar hynny yn y dyfodol, felly. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny.	Bethan Jenkins: I’m sure we could look at that in the future, therefore. Thank you very much for that.
12:13
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar gyfer Eitem 7 Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting for Item 7
Cynnig:	Motion:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).	that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved.
[420] Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 6, felly, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus gyda hynny?	Bethan Jenkins: Item 6, therefore, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting. Is everybody content?
[421] Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.	Dai Lloyd: Content.
[422] Bethan Jenkins: Bodlon. Diolch yn fawr iawn.	Bethan Jenkins: Content. Thank you very much.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:14. The public part of the meeting ended at 12:14.