Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol

The Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee

2/12/2015

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

Cynnwys
Contents

5....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant

......... Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations

5....... Ymchwiliad i Adolygiad Siarter y BBC: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 8—Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg

......... Inquiry into the BBC Charter Review: Evidence Session 8—Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg

45..... Papurau i’w Nodi

......... Papers to Note

45..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod

......... Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Peter Black	Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Christine Chapman	Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Labour (Committee Chair)
Alun Davies	Llafur Labour
Janet Finch-Saunders	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
John Griffiths	Llafur (yn dirprwyo ar ran Gwenda Thomas) Labour (substitute for Gwenda Thomas)
Mike Hedges	Llafur Labour
Bethan Jenkins	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Mark Isherwood	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Gwyn R. Price	Llafur Labour
Lindsay Whittle	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Curon Davies	Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Welsh Language Society
Colin Nosworthy	Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Welsh Language Society
Aled Powell	Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Welsh Language Society
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Claire Morris	Clerc Clerk
Sarah Sargent	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Robin Wilkinson	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:02. The meeting began at 09:02.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations
[1] Christine Chapman: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the National Assembly for Wales’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee. We have had apologies this morning from Gwenda Thomas, and John Griffiths will be attending in her place. I know Lindsay is a new member with us, so welcome, Lindsay, and Bethan, I know you’ve been here before, but you’re an official new member now, so welcome to you both.
[2] Lindsay Whittle: Thank you, Chair.
[3] Mike Hedges: Actually, they’re both old members. [Laughter.]
[4] Bethan Jenkins: Less of the ‘old’, Mike. [Laughter.]
09:03
Ymchwiliad i Adolygiad Siarter y BBC: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 8—Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Inquiry into the BBC Charter Review: Evidence Session 8—Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg
[5] Christine Chapman: This is the eighth evidence session relating to our inquiry into the BBC charter review. Can I give a very warm welcome to our panel this morning from Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg? Could you introduce yourselves for the record first, please?
[6] Mr Davies: Bore da. Curon Davies ydw i. Rwyf yma ar ran y gymdeithas ynghyd â’r ddau arall.		Mr Davies: Good morning. I’m Curon davies. I’m here on behalf of Cymdeithas yr Iaith along with my colleagues.
[7] Mr Nosworthy: Colin Nosworthy ydw i, swyddog cyswllt y Cynulliad, Cymdeithas yr Iaith.		Mr Nosworthy: I’m Colin Nosworthy, the Assembly liaison officer for Cymdeithas yr iaith.
[8] Mr Powell: Aled Powell, aelod o grŵp digidol Cymdeithas yr Iaith.		Mr Powell: Aled Powell, member of the digital group of Cymdeithas yr iaith.
[9] Christine Chapman: Welcome to you all. The Members will have received your written paper and read it, so if you’re happy we’ll go straight into questions.
[10] Mr Nosworthy: Os byddai’n bosibl i Curon wneud datganiad agoriadol, achos mae cyd-destun y dystiolaeth wedi newid tipyn ar ôl y cyhoeddiad am yr adolygiad gwariant—		Mr Nosworthy: If it would be possible for Curon to make an opening statement, because the context of the evidence has shifted a little following the announcement made in the comprehensive spending review—
[11] Christine Chapman: If you could be fairly brief, because, obviously, I’m sure we’ll be exploring these issues, but, Curon, if you’d like to—
[12] Mr Davies: Cafodd y dystiolaeth ei hysgrifennu cyn yr adolygiad gwariant yr wythnos diwethaf, a rhaid dweud ein bod ni yn condemnio’n llwyr y cyhoeddiad wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â chyllid S4C. Mae’r toriadau yn hollol groes i addewid y Ceidwadwyr yn eu maniffesto ar gyfer yr etholiad eleni, a oedd yn nodi’n glir eu bod nhw’n bwriadu diogelu arian S4C. Mae’n hanfodol bod y Cynulliad yn sefyll lan yn erbyn hyn, sydd yn benderfyniad hollol annemocrataidd. Mae’n anodd peidio dehongli hyn gan y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan fel rhywbeth sy’n weithred sbeitlyd ac yn rhagfarnllyd yn erbyn y Gymraeg.		Mr Davies: The evidence was drafted prior to last week’s comprehensive spending review, and I have to say that we condemn entirely last week’s announcement on the funding of S4C. The cuts are entirely contrary to the pledge made by the Conservatives in their manifesto for this year’s elections, which noted clearly that they intend to safeguard the funding of S4C. It is crucial that the Assembly stands against this cut, which is an entirely undemocratic decision. It’s difficult not to interpret this as something from the Westminster Government that is a spiteful, prejudiced act against the Welsh language.
[13] Rŷm ni’n falch bod y Prif Weinidog yma yng Nghymru wedi gofyn am gyfarfod â John Whittingdale, a rŷm ni’n gobeithio, y prynhawn yma, y bydd y Cynulliad yn gwneud penderfyniad i ymateb i hyn. Diolch.		We are pleased that the First Minister here in Wales has asked for a meeting with John Whittingdale, and we very much hope that, this afternoon, the Assembly will take a decision to respond to this. Thank you.
[14] Christine Chapman: Thank you. Okay, I’ve got an opening question, and then I will hand this over to other Members. The BBC Trust has suggested changing the wording of the BBC’s public purpose relating to the nations and regions, so that the BBC has to provide content to meet the needs of the nations, rather than merely representing them. To what extent would you, as an organisation, support this change? Who’d like to start? Aled.
[15] Mr Powell: Very much so. We believe the remit of the BBC should be on the level of the nations, reflective of what it attempts to be on the UK-wide basis. In the case of Wales, that would mean to be doing as much as possible bilingually, and whether that’s representing and reporting on sport or on democracy on a UK level—that the same level of attention is given on a Wales level.
[16] Mr Nosworthy: A gaf i jest ategu at hynny? Mae yna berygl ein bod ni’n gweld y BBC fel yr unig ddarparwr yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Mae’n rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus i atal sefyllfa rhag datblygu lle mae’r BBC yn cael ei weld fel yr unig gorff sy’n darparu darlledu cyhoeddus. Beth nad ydym am ei weld yw ehangu cylch gwaith y BBC i gael ei weld fel yr hyn sy’n darparu ac yn traflyncu S4C. Mae’n bwysig iawn, wrth gwrs, beth mae’r BBC yn darparu o ran Radio Cymru a BBC Cymru Fyw, ond mae S4C a’i hannibyniaeth yn hynod o bwysig hefyd.		Mr Nosworthy: May I just add to that? There is a risk that we see the BBC as the only provider of Welsh-language content. We must be guarded in preventing a situation from developing where the BBC is seen as the sole provider providing public service broadcasting. What we wouldn’t want to see is an expansion of the BBC’s remit to be seen as something that subsumes S4C. It is very important in terms of what the BBC provides in terms of Radio Cymru and BBC Cymru Fyw, but S4C and its independence is also extremely important.
[17] Christine Chapman: Okay, thank you. Alun, have you got some questions?
[18] Alun Davies: Diolch yn fawr. Diolch am eich dogfen; rwy’n credu ei bod yn help mawr o ran beth rydym yn trio’i wneud fan hyn.		Alun Davies: Thank you very much. Thank you for your evidence; I think it’s a great help in terms of what we’re trying to do here.
[19] Nid wyf yn siŵr fy mod yn dilyn yn union beth rydych chi’n trio’i ddweud yn y ddogfen yma. Rydych chi’n sôn amboutu sefydliad darlledu newydd o ryw fath. Efallai y byddai’n helpu petaech chi’n esbonio sut y buasai hynny’n helpu’r sefyllfa rydym yn ei hwynebu ar hyn o bryd. Sut ydych chi’n gweld hynny’n gweithio y tu mewn i’r drefn ddarlledu sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd?		I’m not sure that I follow exactly what you’re trying to say in this document. You mention a new broadcasting organisation of some kind. It might help if you could explain how that would help the situation that we face at present. How do you see that working within the current broadcasting arrangement that we have?
[20] Mr Powell: Wel, o ran y ffaith ein bod ni yma yng Nghymru dim ond efo un orsaf deledu ac un orsaf radio yn darlledu yn yr iaith Gymraeg, mae hynny’n ein rhoi ni y tu ôl i wledydd a rhanbarthau â ieithoedd eraill yn Ewrop. Yng Ngwlad y Basg, sefydlwyd eu sianel teledu Basgeg nhw yn yr un flwyddyn ag S4C, ond erbyn hyn maen nhw efo tri sianel deledu ac o leiaf dwy—		Mr Powell: Well, in terms of the fact that we here in Wales only have one television station and one radio station broadcasting in the Welsh language, that puts us behind other nations and regions in Europe. In the Basque Country, for example, their Basque channel was established in the same year as S4C, but they now have three television channels and at least two—
[21] Alun Davies: Cyhoeddus?		Alun Davies: Public?
[22] Mr Powell: Yn gyhoeddus—		Mr Powell: They are public—
[23] Alun Davies: Yn cael eu hariannu gan y wladwriaeth.		Alun Davies: They are funded by the state.
[24] Mr Powell: Fel rwy’n ei ddeall. Ac mae ganddynt ddwy orsaf radio hefyd. Mae’n rhaid cael hyn er mwyn cynnig dewis i’r gynulleidfa. Nid ydy’r gynulleidfa iaith Gymraeg yn wahanol i gynulleidfa unrhyw iaith arall o ran y ffaith bod ganddyn nhw ddiddordebau amrywiol ac eisiau gwylio a gwrando ar bethau gwahanol ar adegau gwahanol. Mae’n amhosib cyflawni hynny gyda dim ond un sianel ac un orsaf yn yr iaith Gymraeg.		Mr Powell: As I understand it, yes. And they have two radio stations also. This is necessary in order to provide choice to the audience. The Welsh-language audience is no different to any other audience in the sense that they have varied interests and they want to watch and listen to various different things at different times. It’s impossible to achieve that with just one tv channel and one radio station in the Welsh language.
[25] Mr Nosworthy: Rwyf i hefyd yn meddwl bod y syniad yn ceisio adlewyrchu’r newid yn y ffordd y mae’r gynulleidfa iau, yn enwedig, yn derbyn newyddion ac adloniant. Roeddem ni’n edrych ar ystadegau, ac rwy’n meddwl bod yr oedran o 16 i 24 yn treulio dros 26 awr yr wythnos ar-lein, yn bennaf. Felly, o ran hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg, yn enwedig i bobl yn eu harddegau, mae angen endid newydd sy’n mynd i ddarparu a gwireddu’r hawl sydd gan bobl i dderbyn newyddion a gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg, yn hynny o beth, a dyna ran o’r cynnig.		Mr Nosworthy: I also think that this idea tries to reflect the change in the way in which the younger audience, in particular, actually accesses news and entertainment. We were looking at statistics, and I think the 16 to 24 age group spends some 26 hours per week online, mainly. Therefore, in terms of promoting the Welsh language, particularly to teenagers, you need a new entity that will provide content to them and will actually deliver on people’s rights to receive news and entertainment through the medium of Welsh, in that regard, and that is part of the proposal.
[26] Alun Davies: Diolch am hynny; mae hynny’n helpu. Rydych hefyd yn dweud nad yw’r BBC yn ei weld fel rhan o remit y BBC i gryfhau’r iaith Gymraeg. O beth rwy’n ei weld, y BBC yw un o’r unig sefydliadau—efallai yr unig sefydliad Prydeinig—sydd yn cynnig gwasanaethau eang trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.		Alun Davies: Thank you for that; that helps. You also say that the BBC doesn’t see it as part of its remit to strengthen the Welsh language. From what I see, the BBC is one of the few organisations—perhaps the only British one—that offers a broad range of services through the medium of Welsh.
[27] Mr Powell: Mae’r BBC yn cynnig gwasanaethau trwy’r iaith Gymraeg, ond hefyd mae yna ddyletswydd a rôl ganddyn nhw i’w chwarae o ran ei ddarpariaeth ar gyfer y gynulleidfa di-Gymraeg. Mae yna lawer o faterion sydd yn cael eu trafod ar Radio Cymru ac yn cael sylw ar S4C sydd yn ymwneud â’r iaith Gymraeg sydd ddim yn cael yr un fath o sylw ag allbwn Radio Wales a sianeli Saesneg y BBC. Felly, mae’r gynulleidfa honno’n colli allan ar elfen bwysig o’n diwylliant ein gwlad ni.		Mr Powell: The BBC does provide services through the medium of Welsh, but they also have a duty and an important role to play in their provision for the non-Welsh-speaking audience in Wales. Many of the issues discussed on Radio Cymru and covered on S4C related to the Welsh language don’t get that same sort of coverage on the Radio Wales output or on the English-medium channels provided by the BBC. That audience is therefore missing out on an important element of our nation’s culture.
[28] Alun Davies: Ond mae hynny’n sôn amboutu gwerthoedd y BBC ac nid y gwasanaeth.		Alun Davies: But that is talking about the values of the BBC and not the service.
[29] Mr Nosworthy: Rwy’n meddwl, beth roeddem ni’n edrych arnyn nhw pan oeddem yn edrych ar rai enghreifftiau yng ngwledydd Sbaen, er enghraifft, oedd bod y twf sydd wedi dod mewn gwasanaethau mewn ieithoedd lleiafrifol wedi dod o’r darlledwr cynhenid yn bennaf, yn yr enghreifftiau yr ydym ni wedi edrych arnyn nhw. Felly, dyna le mae yna sgôp i ehangu’r ddarpariaeth, a lle mae yna wahaniaeth rhwng sefydliad sydd ar lefel Brydeinig a lefel Gymreig yn hynny o beth. Rwy’n gwybod fod gennych chi ddiddordeb yn ffederaleiddio’r BBC ac y mae hwn yn gysylltiedig ag ef, ond, wrth gwrs, mae S4C yn sefydliad o natur wahanol, ac fe’i sefydlwyd am reswm penodol—am reswm hanesyddol penodol—ac mae mewn sefyllfa lot gwell i yrru agenda’r Gymraeg na sefydliad ar lefel Brydeinig achos, wrth gwrs, nid yw’n mynd i fod yn rhan greiddiol o sefydliad sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu ar lefel Brydeinig.		Mr Nosworthy: I think, what we were looking at when we were looking at some examples in the countries of Spain, for example, was that the growth that has been in their minority language services has come from the indigenous broadcaster mainly, in the examples that we have looked at. Therefore, that is where there is scope to expand the provision, and where there is a difference between an organisation on a UK level and on a Welsh level in that regard. I know that you are interested in the federalisation of the BBC and that is related, but, of course, S4C is a very different organisation of a different nature, and it was established for a specific reason—a specific historic reason—and they’re in a far better position to promote the Welsh language than a UK institution because it’s not going to be a core part of any institution that exists on such a UK level.
[30] Alun Davies: Rwy’n cyd-fynd â rhywfaint o’r dadansoddiad, ond un o’r pethau sydd yn fy mecso i yw bod y diwylliant Cymraeg ei iaith yn wynebu perygl o fod yn rhy gorfforaethol. Os ydych yn edrych ar y newyddion trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, y BBC yw’r unig ddarparwr difrifol ar draws y wlad, ac y mae hynny’n gallu bod yn broblem i ni. Os ydym yn sôn am ehangu darpariaeth y wladwriaeth, rydych yn sôn am ehangu, wedyn, y dylanwad corfforaethol ar yr iaith ac ar ddiwylliant yr iaith.		Alun Davies: I agree with some of your analysis, but one of the things that concerns me is that the Welsh-language culture faces the danger of being too corporate. If you look at the Welsh-medium news, the BBC is the only serious provider across the country, and that can be a problem for us. If we are talking about broadening the provision of the state, you are talking about widening the corporate influence on the language and culture of the language.
[31] Mr Nosworthy: Rwy’n meddwl fod angen i ieithoedd lleiafrifol gael eu hamddiffyn ac y mae angen ymyrraeth yn y farchnad i wneud hynny. Felly, mae’n anorfod, mewn ffordd, eich bod chi’n mynd i gael diwylliant o’r fath, i ryw raddau. Fel unrhyw fethiant yn y farchnad, y mae’n rhaid i’r wladwriaeth gamu i mewn, a dyna pam sefydlwyd S4C a dyna pam y mae angen yr ymyrraeth hynny. Rydym yn sôn yn y papur hefyd am y syniad o lefi neu ardoll i ychwanegu at yr arian. Mae hynny’n ffordd o ymyrryd yn y farchnad achos mae yna fethiannau. Mae yna lot o chwaraewyr yn y farchnad, megis Sky, ITV a Google, sydd ddim yn darparu llawer o gynnwys yn y Gymraeg, yn benodol yn enghraifft Sky—maen nhw wedi tynnu nôl ar sylwebaeth Gymraeg ar bêl-droed, er enghraifft. Mae hynny’n creu rheswm cryf, yn ein barn ni, dros godi treth ar y darlledwyr hynny er mwyn darparu cynnwys Cymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: I think that minority languages need to be protected and that there needs to be market intervention to achieve that. Therefore, it’s inevitable, in a way that, you are going to have such a culture developing, to a certain extent. Like any market failure, the state has to step in, and that’s why S4C was established and that’s why we need that intervention. In our paper, we also talk about a levy to add to the funding. That is one type of market intervention because there are market failings. There are many players in the market, such as Sky, ITV and Google, which don't provide much content through the medium of Welsh, in terms of Sky—they’ve withdrawn their Welsh-language commentary on football matches, for example. That gives a strong reason, in our view, to levy a charge on those broadcasters to provide Welsh-medium products.
[32] Alun Davies: Mae’n codi’r cwestiwn i fi: beth ydych chi’n ei wneud i sicrhau bod Sky yn gwneud hynny? Nid wyf yn anghytuno â’r dadansoddiad, ond y pryder sydd gen i yw ein bod ni’n gwybod ein bod wedi ennill bron pob dim rŷm ni wedi ei gael trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg trwy ymgyrchu mewn ffyrdd gwahanol a thrwy’r bobl sy’n gwneud y penderfyniadau yn gweld pwysigrwydd y Gymraeg. Felly, pan rwyf i’n meddwl amboutu darparwyr preifat gwahanol, mae yna le i’r wladwriaeth wneud pethau, yn amlwg—creu y strwythur—ond mae yna le hefyd i gwmnïau a busnesau preifat ddarparu gwasanaeth sydd ddim yn cael ei rheoleiddio—dim rheoleiddio ond rhedeg—sydd ddim yn cael ei rhedeg gan y wladwriaeth.		Alun Davies: That raises the question: what are you doing to ensure that Sky is doing that? I do not disagree with the analysis, but the concern that I have is that we know that we have won nearly everything through the medium of Welsh by campaigning in different ways and through the people making the decisions seeing the importance of the Welsh language. Therefore, when I think about the different private providers, there is scope for the state to do things, obviously—to create the structure—,but also there is scope for companies and businesses in the private sector to provide a service that is not regulated—not regulated but run—that is not run by the state.
09:15
[33] Mr Nosworthy: Un ateb i hynny—a gwnaf adael i Aled ddod i mewn, efallai—yw: os edrychwch ar y farchnad radio masnachol, mae gennym system sydd, yn araf deg, yn tynnu’r holl ddarpariaeth Gymraeg yn ôl oherwydd y farchnad rydd. Nawr, os ydych chi’n dadlau bod y farchnad rydd yn gallu camu mewn, ein profiad ni o’r farchnad rydd yn achos radio, er enghraifft, yw ei fod e’n golygu llai o ddarpariaeth Gymraeg. So, rwy’n meddwl bod ymyrraeth yn y farchnad yn hanfodol er mwyn darparu darlledu Cymraeg. Nid wyf yn siŵr, Aled, os ti eisiau—		Mr Nosworthy: One solution—and I will let Aled come in, perhaps—is: if you look at the commercial radio sector, then we have a system that, slowly, is withdrawing all of the Welsh-medium provision because of the free market. Now, if you’re arguing that the free market can step in, our experience of that in the case of radio, for example, is that it means less Welsh-medium provision. Therefore, I do think that market intervention is crucial in order to provide Welsh-medium broadcasting. I’m not sure, Aled, if you have anything to add.
[34] Mr Powell: Jest eisiau adleisio hynny, rydym ni wedi gweld, fel roedd Colin yn ei ddweud, Sky yn dechrau gydag addewid o sylwebaeth Gymraeg ac yn tynnu’n ôl ar hynny. Rydym ni’n ei chael hi’n anodd iawn i berswadio cwmnïau fel Google, Apple a Twitter i gynnig eu gwasanaethau nhw yn yr iaith Gymraeg, ac, felly, na, nid yw’r farchnad agored yn ymddangos fel pe bai yn ymdrechu i gwrdd â ni hanner ffordd.		Mr Powell: I just wanted to echo those comments. As Colin said, we have seen Sky starting with a pledge of Welsh-language commentary, and then withdrawing that. We find it very difficult to persuade companies such as Google, Apple and Twitter to provide their services through the medium of Welsh, and, therefore, the open market doesn’t seem to be responding and meeting us halfway.
[35] Mr Nosworthy: Mi wnaethom ni frwydro yn galed iawn i gael un cyfarfod gyda Google. Nid yw’n rhwydd iawn i ymgyrchu yn erbyn y corfforaethau mawr hyn i gael darpariaeth Gymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: We fought very hard to have one meeting with Google. It’s not very easy to campaign against these major corporations to achieve Welsh-medium provision.
[36] Christine Chapman: Okay, Alun? Okay, we’ll move on now, and I know other Members want to come in. Bethan, you had some questions.
[37] Bethan Jenkins: Jest i ddechrau, yn amlwg, nid wyf yn erbyn creu darlledwr newydd, ond jest cwestiwn yng nghyd-destun yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yr wythnos diwethaf: a yw yn realistig i ofyn am blatfform newydd pan fo yna doriadau yn digwydd nawr i S4C? Hynny yw, sut mae’r ddadl yn mynd i ddatblygu lle bod angen peidio â chael toriadau i S4C, ond wedyn rydym ni’n gofyn ‘Wel, mae yna angen platfform newydd hefyd’? Beth yw eich barn chi yn hynny o beth, achos nid yw’n gysyniad anghywir, rwy’n cytuno, ond beth sy’n mynd i ddigwydd nawr yn yr hinsawdd ariannol sydd ohoni?		Bethan Jenkins: Just to start, evidently, I’m not against creating a new broadcaster, but just a question in the context of what happened last week: is it realistic to ask for a new platform when there are cuts happening to S4C? That is, how is the argument going to develop where we need to not have cuts to S4C, but then we’re asking, ‘Well, we need a new platform as well’? What is your opinion in that regard, because it’s not an erroneous concept, I agree, but what is going to happen in the current financial climate?
[38] Mr Powell: Yn gyntaf, rydym ni’n anghytuno efo polisïau llymder; mae’r rheini yn ddewis gwleidyddol. Mae’r ffaith ein bod ni, fel roeddwn yn grybwyll gynnau, 30 mlynedd ar ôl sefydlu S4C, dim ond yn dal efo’r un sianel Gymraeg yn golygu ein bod ni tu ôl, hyd yn oed, rhai o ieithoedd lleiafrifol eraill Ewrop. Felly, nid yw’r hinsawdd economaidd yn newid y sefyllfa yna; mae angen mwy o ddewis, mae angen darparu ail sianel, ac ail orsaf radio i’r Cymry Cymraeg.		Mr Powell: First of all, we disagree with the policies of austerity; those are a political choice. The fact, as I mentioned earlier, that we are 30 years on from the establishment of S4C and still only have that one Welsh-medium channel does mean that we’re behind, even, some of the other minority languages in Europe. Therefore, the economic climate doesn’t change that situation; we need enhanced choice, we need a second channel and a second radio station operating through the medium of Welsh.
[39] Bethan Jenkins: Felly, mae cysyniad y BBC—nid wyf yn gwybod os gwnaethoch chi wylio’r dystiolaeth yr wythnos diwethaf, oedd yn dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i roi rhyw fath o adnodd arlein yn unig i Gymru. Beth fyddai rhywbeth fel yna—? A fyddai rhywbeth fel yna yn eich plesio chi, neu nid y BBC fyddai’n gwneud y ddarpariaeth yn eich barn chi?		Bethan Jenkins: So, the concept of the BBC—I’m not sure if you watched the evidence last week, where they said that they were going to provide some kind of online-only resource for Wales. What would something like that—? Would that kind of concept be satisfactory to you, or should the BBC not be making the provision in your opinion?
[40] Mr Powell: Mi ddylai ail ddarparwr fod yn un annibynnol o’r BBC, yn bendant; mae’n rhaid osgoi bod y—		Mr Powell: A second provider should be independent of the BBC, certainly; we must avoid—
[41] Bethan Jenkins: Ond yn dal i gael ei ariannu gan y wladwriaeth?		Bethan Jenkins: But it would still be funded by the state?
[42] Mr Powell: Fel rydym wedi ei godi yn y fan yma, mae gennym syniad yr ardoll i helpu ariannu hynny. Mewn papur trafodaeth y gwnaethom ei lansio llynedd yn Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Llanelli, mae yna nifer o wahanol syniadau yn cael eu rhoi ymlaen o ran codi arian heb ddibynnu yn hollol ar ffi’r drwydded na’r pwrs cyhoeddus.		Mr Powell: As we’ve raised here, we’ve proposed a levy to help with funding that. In a discussion paper that we launched last year at the Llanelli National Eisteddfod, there are a number of different ideas being mooted in terms of raising funds without relying entirely on the public purse or the licence fee.
[43] Mr Nosworthy: Rwy’n meddwl ei bod hi’n bwysig nodi y gwnaethom ysgrifennu’r dystiolaeth yma ar y sail ein bod ni’n meddwl bod Llywodraeth Prydain yn mynd i gadw at ei haddewid i ddiogelu arian S4C. Efallai y gallwch chi alw hynny yn naïf, ond rydym yn credu fod pleidiau yn sefyll ar eu maniffesto ac wedyn maen nhw’n delifro y maniffesto yna. Felly, nid ein lle ni oedd hi i ddarogan y byddan nhw yn torri addewid clir a wnaed i ddiogelu arian i S4C. Os wyt ti’n edrych ar y twf aruthrol sydd wedi bod yn y gwasanaethau Saesneg eu hiaith ym Mhrydain—teledu, radio ac arlein—a chymharu hynny â beth sydd wedi digwydd yn y Gymraeg, nid oes twf wedi bod yn y Gymraeg bron o gwbl o ran nifer y wasanaethau. Byddai rhywun yn disgwyl, fel mae Galisia a Gwlad y Basg yn dangos, lot mwy o wasanaethau. Felly, mewn ffordd, rydym ni ond yn gofyn am yr hyn a fyddai’n deg i’r Gymraeg, sef darparu rhagor o ddewis a rhagor o blatfformau. Mae Radio Cymru ac S4C mewn sefyllfa anodd oherwydd eu bod nhw yn ceisio darparu un gwasanaeth ar gyfer yr holl gynulleidfa, ac nid yw’n synnu rhywun fod gennym broblem o ran defnydd o’r Gymraeg ymysg pobl ifanc, er enghraifft, achos fod gennym sianeli sydd ddim yn gallu darparu ar gyfer yr holl gynulleidfa. So, dyna’r sail i rai o’r cynigion.		Mr Nosworthy: I think it’s important to note that we wrote this evidence on the basis that we thought that the UK Government were going to stick to their pledge to safeguard S4C’s funding. You may call that naïve, but we believe that parties stand on a manifesto and then deliver that manifesto. So, it wasn’t our place to predict that they would break a clear pledge made to safeguard the funding of S4C. If you look at the huge growth that there has been in English-medium services in Britain—television, radio and online—and compare that with what has happened through the medium of Welsh, there has been almost no growth at all in terms of the number of services provided through the medium of Welsh. One would expect, as Galicia and the Basque Country demonstrate, far more services to be available. So, in a way, we’re only asking for what would be fair provision for the Welsh language, namely providing further choice and more platforms. Radio Cymru and S4C are in a difficult position because they are trying to provide a single service for the entire Welsh-speaking audience, and it’s not surprising that you do have a problem in terms of the use of the Welsh language among young people, for example, because we have channels that simply can’t provide for the entire audience. So, that’s the basis for some of our proposals.
[44] Bethan Jenkins: Felly, i ehangu ar hynny, beth fyddai mwy o ddyletswyddau ar y BBC ar gyfer prif ffrydio yn edrych fel? Beth fyddai’r syniadau o ran ehangu nifer y caneuon yn y Gymraeg ar y radio, er enghraifft, a gweld yr Eisteddfod ar wahanol blatfformau yn fwy? Pa bethau byddech yn hoffi gweld y BBC yn eu gwneud yn benodol i brif ffrydio?		Bethan Jenkins: So, to expand on that, what would more duties on the BBC for mainstreaming look like? What would be the ideas in terms of having more songs in Welsh on the radio, for example, and seeing the Eisteddfod on different platforms more? What kind of things would you like to see the BBC doing specifically to mainstream?
[45] Mr Nosworthy: Rwy’n meddwl bod yr hyn rydym ni’n sôn amdano fe yn berthnasol i adolygiad y siartr, ond hefyd yn mynd tu hwnt i hynny, sy’n ei wneud e’n anodd, oherwydd bob tro rwyf wedi ysgrifennu at y Llywodraeth am S4C, maen nhw wastad yn dweud, ‘Mae’n bwysig eich bod chi’n ymateb i adolygiad siartr y BBC.’ Wel, mae yna bethau—. Rydym ni’n pryderu am ddibynnu ar y BBC i ddarparu pethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac rydym ni’n gweld y dylid sefydlu pethau yn annibynnol ar y BBC i wella’r plwraliaeth er mwyn gwneud hynny. So, nid ydym yn gweld, o reidrwydd, taw’r BBC fyddai ffynhonnell hynny, ond, cyn belled ag eu bod nhw’n datblygu gwasanaethau newydd, dylen nhw wneud y Gymraeg yn wreiddiol iddyn nhw.		Mr Nosworthy: I think what we’re talking about is relevant to the charter review, but also goes beyond that, and that makes it difficult, because every time I’ve written to the Government on S4C, they always say, ‘It’s important that you respond to the BBC charter review’. Well, there are things—. We are concerned about relying on the BBC to provide Welsh-medium material, and we believe that things that are independent of the BBC should be established to improve plurality in order to achieve that. Therefore, we don’t necessarily see that the BBC should be the source of that, but, as far as they do develop new services, they should put the Welsh language at the heart of those.
[46] Bethan Jenkins: Dyna beth oeddwn yn trio gofyn: o ran ehangu ar y dyletswyddau hynny, beth yn gwmws byddech chi eisiau ei weld? Rwy’n deall y pwynt o ran bod angen i bobl eraill wneud mwy, ond beth yn gwmws byddech chi eisiau gweld y BBC yn gwneud mwy ohono?		Bethan Jenkins: That is what I was trying to ask: in terms of broadening those duties, what exactly would you want to see? I understand the point that other people need to do more, but what exactly would you want to see the BBC doing more of?
[47] Mr Nosworthy: Un enghraifft, rwy’n meddwl, ydy os ydych yn edrych ar Radio Cymru a’r cwtogiad yn nifer yr oriau. Rydym ni’n meddwl dylent wneud mwy o oriau ar Radio Cymru, a dylai fod mwy o ddarpariaeth yn hynny o beth. Rwy’n meddwl, os edrychwch chi ar wasanaethau ar-lein y BBC, nid yw beth sydd ar gael yn Gymraeg yn gyfatebol i’r hyn sydd ar gael yn Saesneg. So, mae pethau mae nhw’n gwneud yn barod lle mae angen mwy o ddarpariaeth Gymraeg. Enghraifft arall ydy—.		Mr Nosworthy: One example, I think, is if you look at Radio Cymru and the cut in the number of hours. We believe that there should be more Radio Cymru broadcast hours, and there should be greater provision in that regard. I think, if you look at the BBC’s online services, what’s available through the medium of Welsh doesn’t correspond to the English-medium provision. So, there are things that they’re already doing where we need more Welsh-medium provision. Another example is—.
[48] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi wedi codi hyn gyda’r ymddiriedolaeth o gwbl, gydag Elan Closs Stephens, ac yn y blaen?		Bethan Jenkins: Have you raised this with the trust at all, with Elan Closs Stephens, and so forth?
[49] Mr Nosworthy: Rydym ni wedi ymateb i’r adolygiad, ac rydym ni wedi codi hyn. Enghraifft arall roeddwn yn mynd i sôn amdano yw faint o gerddoriaeth Gymraeg sy’n cael ei chwarae ar Radio Wales a faint o ddarpariaeth sydd i ddysgwyr. Rydym ni wedi cwrdd â’r BBC i godi hynny, achos nid ydym yn gweld Radio Cymru fel yr unig fodd i ddarparu ar gyfer dysgwyr a darparu cerddoriaeth Gymraeg. Mae’n bwysig eu bod, ar Radio Wales, ac ar draws platfformau’r BBC, yn darparu ar gyfer y Gymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: We’ve responded to the review, and we have raised this. Another example that I wanted to mention is how much Welsh-language music is played on Radio Wales and how much provision there is for Welsh learners. We’ve met with the BBC to raise that, because we don’t see Radio Cymru as the only platform to provide material for Welsh learners and to provide Welsh-language music. It’s important that Radio Wales provides this and that it’s provided across the BBC’s platforms also.
[50] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Diolch.		Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Thank you.
[51] Christine Chapman: Thank you. Gwyn.
[52] Gwyn R. Price: Good morning. The Welsh Government and the IWA have both called for an extra £30 million a year for BBC Cymru Wales. What is your view on this?
[53] Christine Chapman: Who’d like to start? Who’d like to respond?
[54] Mr Nosworthy: Sori, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny, os rwy’n cofio’n iawn, yng nghyd-destun darpariaeth Saesneg yn bennaf. Beth rydym ni wedi canolbwyntio arno fe yn ein cynigion ydy sut i ehangu’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg ei iaith, a sicrhau tegwch i hynny. Dyna pam rydym ni wedi bod y sôn am y syniad o ardoll er mwyn ychwanegu at adnoddau, a dyna pam rydym ni wedi bod yn sôn am syniadau eraill i ehangu cynnwys y Gymraeg. Nid wyf yn siŵr, Aled, os wyt ti moyn ychwanegu o ran—. Hynny yw, wrth gwrs ein bod yn cefnogi gwasanaethau yn cael eu darparu yn Saesneg, ond, i fod yn deg i ni, rwy’n meddwl bod ein tystiolaeth ni yn canolbwyntio ar ehangu’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg.		Mr Nosworthy: Sorry, I think that, if I remember correctly, is in the context of English-medium provision mainly. What we have focused on in our proposals is how to broaden the Welsh-medium provision, and ensure fairness for that. That’s why we’ve been talking about the idea of a levy to add to resources and that’s why we’ve talked about other ideas to broaden the Welsh-medium content. I’m not sure, Aled, whether you want to add something in terms of—. That is, of course we support services being provided in English, but, to be fair to us, I think that our evidence focuses on expanding the Welsh-medium provision.
[55] Mr Powell: Ie, ac, os oes unrhyw gynnydd yn y gyllideb i wasanaethau Saesneg, dylai hynny gael ei efelychu yn y cyfraniad i’r gwasanaethau drwy’r iaith Gymraeg hefyd, buaswn yn disgwyl.		Mr Powell: Yes, and, if there is any increase in the budget for English language services, that should be reflected in an increase for services through the medium of Welsh too, I would expect.
[56] Gwyn R. Price: Could you expand on the similar mechanisms you say exist in other countries?
[57] Mr Nosworthy: O ran beth, sori? O ran arian?		Mr Nosworthy: In terms of what, sorry? In terms of funding?
[58] Gwyn R. Price: You were saying, in terms of Welsh, you want it expanded here, and you say, in other countries, maybe Spain, they look at that as well. Could you expand on what they do, and that you’d perhaps like to follow?
[59] Mr Nosworthy: Mae yna lot o fanylion yn y papur rydym wedi ei gyflwyno i’r pwyllgor. Rydym ni wedi sôn am nifer o enghreifftiau, rhai ohonyn nhw nid wyf yn gallu eu ynganu, o ran enwau darlledwyr Gwlad y Basg a Galisia, mae’n flin gyda fi. Ond os edrychwch chi ar rheini—gallwn ddarparu mwy o fanylion i’r pwyllgor, ond maen nhw’n tueddu i ddarparu mwy nag un sianel deledu, mwy nag un gorsaf radio. Rydym ni wedi edrych ar—. Mae peth o’n gwaith ni ynghylch y lefi neu’r ardoll yn edrych ar beth maen nhw’n ei wneud yn Ffrainc a gwledydd eraill o ran codi ardoll neu lefi ar gwmnïau ffôn neu ar hysbysebwyr neu ar elw darlledwyr preifat er mwyn creu ffynhonnell arian ar gyfer darlledu cyhoeddus. So, mae yna lot o fanylion yn y papur, ond mae yna lot o fodelau ar gyfer hynny.		Mr Nosworthy: There are many details in the paper that we’ve submitted to the committee. We’ve talked about a number of examples, some of which I cannot pronounce, in terms of the names of broadcasters from the Basque Country and Galicia, I’m sorry. But if you look at those—we can provide more details to the committee, but they tend to provide more than one tv channel, more than one radio station. We’ve looked at—. Some of our work on the levy looks at what they’re doing in France and other countries in terms of raising a levy on phone companies or advertisers or on the profits of private broadcasters in order to create a funding source for public broadcasting. So, there are lots of details in the paper, but there are lots of models for that.
[60] Christine Chapman: Aled.
[61] Mr Powell: Roeddwn i jest yn meddwl efallai y byddai’n haws os wyf yn cynnig darparu copi o’r ddwy ddogfen yma. Mae yna un sy’n trafod yn benodol darlledwr aml-blatfform newydd ac un arall am wahanol syniadau o ran codi arian, ffyrdd amgen. Achos mae yna lot o fanylder fedraf i ddim gofio o dop fy mhen.		Mr Powell: I was just thinking it might be easier if I offered to provide a copy of these two documents. One specifically discusses a new multiplatform broadcaster and another covers various different ideas in terms of alternative methods of raising funding. Because there’s a great deal of detail that I can’t remember off the top of my head.
[62] Christine Chapman: If you could make that available, that would be very helpful. Thank you. If we could move on now, then, to Mark. You’ve got some questions.
[63] Mark Isherwood: Bore da. You’ve called for a more federal BBC. What do you mean by ‘more federal’ as opposed to ‘federal’, and what evidence do you have that the current structures aren’t working in the interests of Wales?
[64] Mr Nosworthy: Gallaf ddelio â’r ail ran yn gyntaf—nid wyf yn siŵr os yw ti’n moyn dod i mewn, neu Curon. O ran y ffaith nad yw’r strwythur presennol yn gweithio, os edrychwch ar sut y mae negodi ynghylch S4C wedi digwydd, mae’n eithaf clir: yn 2010, roedd yna negodi o fewn 24 awr i bennu gyllideb S4C, heb drafodaeth gyda’r Cynulliad a heb drafodaeth gyda gwleidyddion yng Nghymru o gwbl.		Mr Nosworthy: I’ll deal with the second part first—Aled or Curon might want to come in later. In terms of the current structure not working, if you look at how the negotiations on S4C happened, it is quite clear: in 2010, there was negotiation within 24 hours to set S4C’s budget, without discussion with the Assembly and without discussion with Welsh politicians at all.
[65] Os edrychwch chi ar y llythyr ar 3 Gorffennaf eleni a oedd cynnwys cymal ynghylch ariannu S4C, nid oes atebolrwydd am y penderfyniadau hynny. So, pan ydym yn sôn am ddatganoli darlledu, mae hynny, rydym ni’n meddwl, yn hanfodol oherwydd mae gennym sefyllfa lle mae penderfyniadau ynghylch S4C yn cael eu gwneud gan swyddogion yn Llundain heb ymgynghori â phobl yng Nghymru. Felly, mae gennym broblem fawr iawn ynghylch atebolrwydd.		If you look at the letter on 3 July this year, which included a clause about funding S4C, there is no accountability for those decisions. So, when we talk about devolving broadcasting, that, we think, is vital because we have a situation where decisions about S4C are being made by officials in London without consulting with people in Wales. So, we have a very major problem in terms of accountability.
[66] Jest un enghraifft arall o ran problem y BBC, sy’n fwy penodol i’r BBC, achos mae hwn jest yn rhan o’r ateb, os edrychwch chi, a nid yw’r ffigurau o fy mlaen i, ar y toriad—a rwy’n meddwl fod tystion eraill wedi cyfeirio at hyn—i Radio 4 o’i gymharu â’r toriad i Radio Cymru, beth sydd yn digwydd o fewn system ganolog ydy bod y canol yn cael ei amddiffyn yn fwy nag ardaloedd eraill. Yn achos radio, dyna’r hyn yr ydym ni wedi ei weld yn digwydd.		Just one other example in terms of the BBC’s problem, which is more specific to the BBC, because this is just part of the solution, if you look, and I do not have the figures before me, at the cut—and I think that other witnesses referred to this—to Radio 4 compared with the cut to Radio Cymru, what’s happening within a centralised system is that the centre is protected more than other areas. In the case of radio, that is what we have seen happening.
[67] Mr Powell: O ran strwythur, buaswn i’n hoffi bod Cynulliad Cymru’n penodi aelodau ymddiriedolaeth BBC Cymru a fyddai’n sicrhau bod Cymru’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn allbwn y gwasanaethau ar y BBC.		Mr Powell: In terms of structure, I would want to see the Assembly appointing members to the BBC Wales trust, which would ensure that Wales could be properly reflected in terms of the BBC’s output.
[68] Alun Davies: Y Cynulliad, nid y Llywodraeth?		Alun Davies: The Assembly, not the Government?
[69] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, nid wyf yn meddwl ein bod ni wedi mynd i fanylder hynny, ond yr egwyddor ydy bod darlledu’n cael ei ddatganoli.		Mr Nosworthy: I don’t think that we’ve gone into that much detail, but the principle is that broadcasting should be devolved.
[70] Christine Chapman: Thank you. Mark, any other questions?
[71] Mark Isherwood: If you could clarify, because, on the one hand, you’re calling for devolution and, on the other hand, you’re talking about a more democratic voice within the current structure, where funding decisions, under any UK Government, would still remain primarily at a non-devolved level. So, could you clarify what it is that you’re actually asking for? Which model are you advocating?
[72] Mr Nosworthy: Rwy’n meddwl mai beth rŷm ni’n galw amdano, mewn egwyddor, yw datganoli’r holl faes. Rwy’n meddwl, yn y strwythur sydd ohoni, mai ffederaleiddio yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Gobeithio bod hynny’n ateb y cwestiwn yn fwy penodol.		Mr Nosworthy: I think that what we’re calling for, in principle, is devolving the whole field. I think, in the current structure, that federalisation is the best way ahead. I hope that that answers your question in a more specific way.
[73] Mark Isherwood: So, Aled’s comment is more of a ‘if we can’t get that far, that’s a stop-gap’ proposal?
[74] Mr Nosworthy: Ydy.		Mr Nosworthy: Yes.
[75] Bethan Jenkins: It’s better than the current situation.
[76] Christine Chapman: Hang on a second. If we can have one voice at a time because it is difficult to pick up in the transmission, then. Alun, you had a supplementary.
[77] Alun Davies: Rwyf jest eisiau sôn am ddatganoli darlledu achos, i ryw raddau, rwyf ambell waith yn cytuno â chi achos mae yna gymaint o gawlach wedi’i wneud gan San Steffan, ambell waith rwy’n teimlo fod angen datganoli’r peth. Ond yn eich papur—rwy’n trio chwilio amdano yn awr—rŷch chi’n sôn am drosiant BSkyB, trosiant ITV a throsiant Google ac ati, a rŷch chi’n sôn am gorfforaethau mawr, rhyngwladol. Un o brif gyfrifoldebau rheoleiddio darlledu yw’r rheoleiddio economaidd o rai o’r corfforaethau yma. Nawr, nid wyf i’n credu ei fod e’n realistig bod hynny’n digwydd yng Nghymru. Nid wyf i’n hollol convinced bod e’n realistig bod e’n digwydd yn San Steffan chwaith, cofiwch. Rwy’n credu ein bod ni’n symud i sefyllfa lle mae rhywfaint o’r rheoleiddio yma’n digwydd ar lefel Ewropeaidd. Felly, a fuasech chi’n cytuno nad yw datganoli darlledu yn ymateb i’r broblem rydym ni’n ei wynebu, ond bod datganoli cyfrifoldeb ac atebolrwydd, efallai, yn fwy pwysig na datganoli y rheoleiddio economaidd yma, sydd ddim, nid wyf yn siŵr, yn realistig?		Alun Davies: I just want to talk about devolving broadcasting, because, to an extent, I sometimes agree with you because there’s been such a mess made of this by Westminster, sometimes I feel that we need to devolve this. But in your paper—and I’m just trying to look for it now—you mention the turnover of BSkyB and ITV’s turnover and Google’s turnover and so forth, and you’re talking about major international corporations. One of the main responsibilities of regulating broadcasting is the economic regulation of some of these corporations. Now, I don’t believe that it’s realistic that that would happen in Wales. I’m not convinced that it’s realistic for it to happen in Westminster either. I think we’re moving to a situation where some regulation is going to happen at the EU level. So, would you agree that devolving broadcasting isn’t a response to the problem that we face, but devolving responsibility and accountability, perhaps, is more important than devolving economic regulation, which I’m not sure is realistic?
09:30
[78] Mr Nosworthy: Gwnaf i drio ateb yn gyntaf ac wedyn Aled—. Rwy’n meddwl, yn ein papur ni am y lefi neu ardoll, rŷm ni’n cadw’r opsiynau yn agored ynghylch ar ba lefel y byddai rhywun yn gosod yr ardoll yna. Mae’r pwynt yn ddigon teg ynghylch Ewrop, achos mae’r corfforaethau hyn yn gweithio ar lefel Ewropeaidd. Nid yw hynny’n dweud nad ydw i’n meddwl y dylai’r pwyllgor edrych ar hyn—os ydych chi’n sôn am dreth hysbysebion, rhai trethi, mae yna fodd gwneud hynny ar lefel Gymreig, o bosib. Wrth gwrs, pan rŷch chi’n sôn am gwmnïau rhyngwladol, efallai bod e’n fwy addas i’w wneud ar lefel Ewropeaidd a Phrydeinig.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, I’ll try and answer that question first and then Aled—. I think, in our paper on the levy, we do keep the options open as to at what level that levy would be set, because the point on Europe is fair enough, because these corporations do work at an EU-wide level. That isn’t to say that the committee shouldn’t look at this—if you’re looking at taxes on advertising, some taxes, then that could be delivered at a Welsh level. Of course, when you’re talking about multinationals, then it’s more appropriate perhaps to do that at a European or UK level.
[79] Rwy’n meddwl, ynghylch y pwynt am ddarlledu yn fwy cyffredinol, mae’n bwysig cofio y gwnaeth comisiwn Silk arolwg barn a oedd yn dangos bod y mwyafrif o bobl o blaid datganoli darlledu. Os ŷch chi’n edrych ar hanes beth sydd wedi digwydd i S4C, nid oes modd dadlau bod y system bresennol yn dderbyniol. Nid yw e’n dderbyniol bod adran yn Whitehall gyda Gweinidog sydd ddim yn cynrychioli Cymru yn gwneud penderfyniad ynghylch yr unig sianel Gymraeg. Mae’n sarhad ar Gymru, i ddweud y gwir, fod hynny yn gallu digwydd. Ac mae hynny’n arwain at sefyllfa yn yr adolygiad o wariant lle rŷch chi’n cael cynnydd yn yr arian ar gyfer twristiaeth yn Lloegr, rŷch chi’n cael cynnydd ar gyfer chwaraeon yn Lloegr, ac rŷch chi’n cael toriad—sydd yn lot yn fwy na’r toriad mae’r adran yn ei dderbyn—i S4C. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu problem fawr.		In terms of the point on broadcasting more broadly, it’s important to note that the Silk commission carried out a survey that demonstrated that the majority of people were in favour of the devolution of broadcasting. If you look at the history of what’s happened to S4C, one cannot make the case that the current system is acceptable. It simply isn’t acceptable that a department in Whitehall with a Minister who doesn’t represent Wales makes a decision about the only Welsh-language channel in existence. It is an insult to Wales, if truth be told, that that can happen. And that leads to a situation in the CSR where you see an increase in funding for tourism in England, you see an increase in funding for sport in England, but you see a cut—which is far greater than the cut that the department itself has experienced—to S4C. That reflects a major problem.
[80] Alun Davies: Mae’n adlewyrchu sut mae’r Tories yn trin Cymru.		Alun Davies: It reflects how the Tories treat Wales, if truth be told.
[81] Mr Nosworthy: Ie, ond, nid yw e’n sefyllfa dderbyniol bod hynny’n gallu digwydd. Mae’r graddau mae rhywun yn datganoli, mae’r rheini’n fanylion sydd yn werth eu trafod, ond rwy’n meddwl nad oes modd cyfiawnhau sefyllfa lle, yn 2010, roedd yna doriad a gafodd ei wneud, gyda’r BBC, swyddogion y BBC yn Llundain, Gweinidogion yn Llundain, heb ymgynghori o gwbl gyda phobl Cymru, yn gwneud toriadau i S4C. Mae’n ei wneud yn anodd iawn i gael craffu digonol ar sefyllfa y sianel.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, yes, but it’s not an acceptable situation that that can happen. The degrees of devolution are details that are worth discussing, but I don’t think you can justify a situation where, in 2010, a cut was made, with the BBC, officials of the BBC in London and Ministers in London, without any consultation with the people of Wales, imposing a cut on S4C. It makes it very difficult to provide adequate scrutiny of the situation of the channel.
[82] Mr Powell: Ac o ran rheoleiddio hefyd, mae darlledu yn cynnwys nid jest y gorsfoedd cenedlaethol ond y gorsafoedd radio lleol hefyd. Rŷm ni wedi gweld, dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, dirywiad yn y ganran o ddarpariaeth Gymraeg sy’n orfodol arnyn nhw wrth i Ofcom yn Llundain ddosbarthu’r trwyddedi iddyn nhw. Mae hynny’n mynd yn groes i ymdrechion Llywodraeth Cymru i gryfhau’r iaith Gymraeg.		Mr Powell: In terms of regulation too, broadcasting includes not only those national channels and stations, but also local services. We have, over the past few years, seen a decline in the percentage of Welsh-medium provision that they are required to provide as Ofcom in London distribute the licenses to them. That is contrary to the efforts of the Welsh Government to strengthen the Welsh language.
[83] Mr Nosworthy: Rŷm ni wedi cael problemau enfawr ac rŷm ni wedi trio sicrhau oriau darlledu yn Gymraeg Radio Ceredigion. Nid yw’r system reoleiddio yn caniatáu rheoleiddio; mae’n gwbl annerbyniol bod y sefyllfa yna yn gallu digwydd. Roedd hyd yn oed sefyllfa lle roedd yna ymgynghoriad ar ddarpariaeth Radio Ceredigion, o ran nifer yr oriau, ac roedd yna gymaint o atebion yn dweud, ‘Peidiwch â thorri’r allbwn Cymraeg’, wnaethon nhw ddim caniatáu hynny, ond, wedyn, fe wnaethon nhw jest ailhysbysebu’r drwydded heb yr amodau Cymraeg. So, mae gennym ni broblem enfawr, ddifrifol gyda’r modd mae’r cyfryngau’n cael eu rheoleiddio, oherwydd y system sydd gyda ni ar lefel Brydeinig.		Mr Nosworthy: We’ve had huge problems and we ran a campaign to secure broadcast hours through the medium of Welsh at Radio Ceredigion. The regulatory system doesn’t allow any regulation; it is entirely unacceptable that that situation can arise. There was even a situation where there was a consultation on Radio Ceredigion’s provision, in terms of the number of hours, and there were so many respondents saying, ‘Well, don’t cut the Welsh-medium provision’, that they didn’t permit that, but, then, they just re-advertised the license without the Welsh-language conditions. So, we have a huge problem with the way in which the media are regulated because of the situation we have at the British level.
[84] Alun Davies: Mae hwnnw’n bwynt digon teg.		Alun Davies: That’s a fair point.
[85] Christine Chapman: Okay, thanks. Mark, have you any other questions? And then I want to move on to others.
[86] Mark Isherwood: Just briefly—. You focused primarily on the CSR, but you’d already said you wanted a more federal BBC before the CSR announcement, so it’s not just about how much money, there are other factors at play. So, I’m still trying to clarify in my mind what it was that led you to call for this prior to the CSR, not because of it, and in terms of—Alun’s touched on it—regulation in Wales, why, particularly, you feel that regulation here would improve the broader situation. What evidence, again, do you have that this would be better than the system that we currently have?
[87] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, rwy’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi ateb y pwynt hwnnw yn yr ymateb yn gynharach i Alun Davies o ran beth yw’r broblem gyda’r system reoleiddio. Mae profiad S4C a’r toriadau hynny yn enghraifft o sut y mae’r system bresennol yn ein hamddifadu ni. Mae enghraifft o radio masnachol. Hefyd, actually, fel roeddech yn sôn, nid oes amodau Cymraeg ar deledu lleol ychwaith. Nawr, byddai rhywun yn meddwl, gyda system sy’n cael ei rheoleiddio yng Nghymru, y byddai yna amodau Cymraeg ar ddarpariaeth teledu lleol. Gwnaethom godi hyn gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ar y pryd, Jeremy Hunt, ac yr oedden nhw jest yn gwrthod gwneud hynny.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, I think that we’ve answered that point in the previous answer to Alun Davies in terms of what is the problem with the current regulatory system. The experience of S4C and those cuts are an example of how the current system deprives us. There is an example of commercial radio. Also, actually, as you mentioned, there are no Welsh conditions on local television either. Now, one would think that, with a system regulated in Wales, there would be Welsh conditions on the provision of local tv. We raised this with the Secretary of State at the time, Jeremy Hunt, and they just refused to do that.
[88] Beth oedd rhan gyntaf dy gwestiwn? Rwy’n meddwl fy mod wedi ceisio ateb y cwestiwn. O, ie; y cwestiwn ynghylch y CSR a’r cysylltiad â ffederaleiddio’r BBC. Rwy’n meddwl bod hyn yn deillio o’r egwyddor ein bod ni’n credu bod angen datganoli darlledu i Gymru, a’n bod ni’n gweld llawer iawn o enghreifftiau, fel yr oeddem yn sôn, o deledu lleol, radio masnachol, a’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn S4C. Felly, yr egwyddor y dylid datganoli darlledu, ac felly y BBC i adlewyrchu hynny, yw’r rheswm ein bod yn galw am hynny.		What was the first part of your question? I think I have tried to answer the question. Oh, yes; the question in terms of the CSR and the link with federalising the BBC. I think that that stems from the principle that we believe that we need to devolve broadcasting to Wales, and that we see many examples, as we mentioned, of commercial radio, local tv, and what is happening in S4C. So, the principle of devolving broadcasting, and therefore the BBC to reflect that, is the reason why we are calling for that.
[89] Christine Chapman: Okay. Thank you. Mark, any other questions?
[90] Mark Isherwood: Finally, can you tell us at this stage how you would see a Welsh regulatory system working in practice? What structure? Who would make the decisions?
[91] Mr Nosworthy: Nid oes dim. Gallwn ddarparu nodyn pellach ar hynny. Rydym wedi gosod rhai o’r pethau allan yn y ddogfennaeth, ond os ydych moyn rhagor o fanylion ynghylch sut y gallai hynny ddigwydd, gallwn ni wneud hynny.		Mr Nosworthy: There is none. We can provide a further note on that. We have set out some of these things in the documentation, but if you want more details about how that could work, we could provide a note on that.
[92] Mark Isherwood: If you have worked-up ideas and suggestions, yes. I’ll conclude by emphasising, let’s just say, that discussions are ongoing.
[93] Christine Chapman: Okay. Thank you. Right, we are over halfway through and I know that some Members want to come in as well. So, I want to make sure that they all have the opportunity. So, I’ve got John first, then Mike.
[94] John Griffiths: Yes. You’ve touched on funding, which obviously is absolutely crucial, and we know that the CSR announcement the other week contained bad news for S4C in terms of reductions in UK funding going forward. We’re yet to find out what the licence fee element of S4C’s funding will be, but obviously it’s a very difficult situation for S4C. I just wonder what you would set out as the main reasons justifying an increase in funding to S4C, as you believe should take place, in the context of the general difficulties with the public purse and cuts to so many other public services. As part of that, what do you see as the consequences for S4C if that increased investment that you are calling for doesn’t take place?
[95] Christine Chapman: Aled.
[96] Mr Powell: O ran rhagweld beth fydd cyfraniad S4C o ffi’r drwydded, mae DCMS wedi dweud y gallai’r BBC dorri eu grant nhw o hyd at 20 y cant. Yn yr un llythyr, mi ddaru nhw ddweud y byddai’r Llywodraeth wedyn yn gwneud i fyny am unrhyw ddiffyg. O ran cynyddu cyllid S4C, fe fyddai’n gam da i fynd yn ôl at beth oedd y cyllid bum mlynedd yn ôl, i ddechrau. Rŷm ni wedi gweld y gwasanaeth yn cael ei grebachu oherwydd y toriadau ers hynny, ac fe ddywedwyd ar y pryd y byddai toriadau pellach yn peryglu gallu’r sianel i barhau i gyflawni’r hyn y mae’n ei wneud. Bum mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, rŷm ni’n gweld toriadau eto, eto ac eto, ac mae dyfodol y sianel yn wirioneddol mewn perygl. Felly, mae’n hollbwysig bod y gyllideb yn cael ei chynyddu yn ôl i beth yr oedd o. Ond hefyd, fel unrhyw gwmni, mae S4C angen sicrwydd o un flwyddyn i’r llall o ran beth fydd ei chyllideb er mwyn cynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol, yn enwedig pan rŷch chi’n ystyried bod lot o gynyrchiadau teledu—dramâu yn arbennig—yn cymryd blynyddoedd i’w paratoi. Felly, un o’n prif alwadau ni ydy mynd yn ôl i system lle mae fformiwla ariannu wedi’i gosod mewn statud a bod y ffigwr hwnnw’n cynyddu efo chwyddiant.		Mr Powell: In terms of predicting the contribution to S4C through the licence fee, DCMS have said that the BBC could cut their grant by up to 20 per cent. In the same letter they said that the Government would then make up for any shortfall. In terms of increasing S4C’s funding, it would be a positive step to return to the funding levels of five years ago, initially. We have seen the service reduced because of the cuts since then, and it was said at the time that further cuts would risk the channel’s ability to continue to achieve its output. Five years on, we are seeing yet more cuts, and the future of the channel really is in the balance. Therefore, it is crucially important that the funding is increased to previous levels. But also, as with any company, S4C needs the assurance from one year to the next of what its budget will be in order to plan for the future, particularly when you consider that many tv productions— dramas in particular—can take many years of preparation. Therefore, one of our main demands is to return to a system where you have a funding formula that is set in statute and that that figure should increase in line with inflation.
[97] Christine Chapman: Colin, did you want to come in?
[98] Mr Nosworthy: Jest i ddweud, rwy’n meddwl bod y tyst o BECTU wedi rhoi’r ddadl yn gryfach. Hynny yw, y rheswm am y toriad oedd y dirwasgiad, os yw’r dirwasgiad drosodd, dylid dychwelyd i’r lefel cyn hynny, yn rhesymegol. Rydym ni, fel mudiad, yn erbyn y polisi o lymder fel mater o egwyddor, ond y sefyllfa rŷm ni’n galw amdani yw dychwelyd y grant i’r lefel yr oedd arni yn gynt, a’r un safbwynt sydd gan BECTU a’r undebau eraill.		Mr Nosworthy: Just to say, I think that BECTU’s witness put the argument most strongly. That is, the reason for the cut was the recession, and if the recession is finished, we should return to the level before that—that’s logical. We, as an organisation, are against austerity as a matter of principle, but the situation we’re calling for now is to return the grant to the previous level, and that’s the same position that BECTU and the other unions have.
[99] Mr Powell: Fel rŷch chi’n ei weld o’r dogfennau hyn, yn ystod yr un pum mlynedd, mae trosiant ac elw darlledwyr preifat fel ITV a BSkyB wedi cynyddu a chynyddu i ffigurau brawychus. Er bod S4C yn sianel gyhoeddus, mae hi’n gorfod cystadlu yn erbyn y sianeli a darlledwyr preifat hyn.		Mr Powell: As you see from these documents, during that same five-year period, the turnover and profits of private broadcasters such as ITV and BSkyB have increased exponentially to quite shocking figures in some cases. Although S4C is a public broadcaster, it does have to compete with these private broadcasters also.
[100] Christine Chapman: Okay, thank you. John, any further questions?
[101] John Griffiths: Yes, Cadeirydd. Just in terms of the statutory formula, then, which would go directly to the S4C authority, what do you see as the main advantages? I think we could probably all think of advantages of a statutory formula, but could you set out briefly what you would see as the main advantages of that statutory formula?
[102] Mr Nosworthy: Mae llawer iawn o fanteision, ond rwy’n meddwl yr egwyddor ydy, os oes gen ti wasanaeth sydd ar lefel Brydeinig sy’n gallu cael ei weld fel un ymylol, mae angen mesurau arbennig i amddiffyn hynny. Dyna pam roedd yna fformiwla ariannu mewn statud, oherwydd mae angen sefydlogrwydd ar ddarlledwr mewn iaith lai yng nghyd-destun Prydeinig. Byddai’n darparu’r sefydlogrwydd a’r gallu i gynllunio ymlaen llaw.		Mr Nosworthy: There are many advantages, but I think the principle is, if you have a service that is on a UK level and can be seen as a marginal one, we need special measures to protect that. That’s why there was a statutory funding formula, because we need stability for broadcasters in a minority language in a British context. It would provide that stability and the ability to plan ahead.
[103] Mae sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd lle rwyt ti’n cael arian trwy’r adolygiad gwariant ac rwyt ti’n cael arian trwy’r ffi drwydded. Nid yw’r arian o’r ffi drwydded yn mynd i gael ei gyhoeddi tan yr haf, neu bryd bynnag fydd hynny. Nid yw’n galluogi’r sefydliad i gynllunio, ond hefyd, ni ddylai arian i S4C ddibynnu ar benderfyniad Ymddiriedolaeth y BBC; fe ddylai fod yn rhywbeth sy’n gallu sefyll ar ei draed ei hun.		There is a situation at present where you have funding through the CSR and through the licence fee. The licence fee money is not going to be announced until the summer, or whenever it may be. That doesn’t allow the organisation to plan, but also, funding for S4C shouldn’t depend on a decision by the BBC Trust; it should be something that can stand alone.
[104] Rwy’n meddwl bod tystion eraill wedi sôn am adlewyrchu chwyddiant yn y fformiwla hefyd, fel bod yr arian yn mynd lan ac yn adlewyrchu hynny. Y rheswm rŷm ni yn y sefyllfa rŷm ni ynddi nawr—sefyllfa gwbl annerbyniol sydd yn peryglu bodolaeth y sianel—yw eu bod nhw’n gallu torri unrhyw bryd, oherwydd bod y ddeddfwriaeth a oedd yn bodoli wedi cael ei diddymu a bod yna jest prawf o arian digonol. Dyna pam rŷm ni yn y sefyllfa lle mae gwir berig i’r unig sianel deledu Cymraeg, oherwydd nid oes yna fformiwla ariannu mewn statud, ac mae hynny’n gwbl hanfodol er mwyn sicrhau bodolaeth y sianel yn hynny o beth, ond hefyd fel ei bod yn gallu cynllunio ymlaen llaw.		I think other witnesses mentioned reflecting inflation in the formula as well, so that the money goes up and reflects that. The reason we’re in the position we’re in now—an unacceptable position that imperils the future of the channel—is because they can cut, whenever, because the legislation that did exist has been abolished and there’s just a test of the necessary funding. That’s why we’re in this situation where we face a real danger for the only Welsh-medium channel, because there is no statutory funding formula, and that’s vital to ensure the existence of the channel, but also so that they can plan ahead.
[105] Christine Chapman: Okay, John?
[106] John Griffiths: Fine. Diolch yn fawr.
[107] Christine Chapman: Mike.
[108] Mike Hedges: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Mae’n flin gen i, mae’r cwestiwn yn Saesneg.		Mike Hedges: Thank you very much, Chair. I do apologise, I’ll be asking my questions in English.
[109] You’ve called for a thorough review of S4C’s requirements. I tend to agree with that. Do you think now is the right time, with the declining budget, to do it? Shouldn’t that be something we should be doing when S4C has got increasing budgets, so you could actually look to expand it? My view is that it is a period of retrenchment we’re in at the moment, and trying to protect what we’ve got.
[110] Mr Nosworthy: Rŷm ni wedi dweud y dylai fod yna adolygiad, oherwydd dyna oedd addewid y Llywodraeth ar y pryd, wrth wneud y newidiadau. Roedden nhw wedi addo adolygiad pob pum mlynedd, os cofiaf yn iawn, felly, o ran cadw at eu gair, dylen nhw wneud hynny. Mae yna berig, ac rŷm ni’n clywed y ddadl yn cael ei gwneud dros adolygiad fel cyfiawnhad ar gyfer toriadau pellach. Mae’n dibynnu ar gylch gorchwyl yr adolygiad o ran beth fyddai ein safbwynt ni ar adolygiad. Ond, yn sicr, nid yw’r sefyllfa bresennol, lle rwyt ti’n trio edrych ar S4C yn rhannol trwy brism yr adolygiad gwariant ac yn rhannol trwy adolygiad y siartr, yn galluogi rhywun i gael sgwrs gall am y sianel yn gyffredinol, a darpariaeth Gymraeg yn fwy cyffredinol.		Mr Nosworthy: We have said that there should be a review, because that was the pledge made by the Government of the day when they made the changes. They had promised a five-yearly review, if memory serves me, so in terms of sticking to their word, then they should certainly do that. There is a risk, and I’ve heard the argument made that having a review could be justification for further cuts. It would depend upon the remit of any review, of course, in terms of what our position would be on a review. But, certainly, the current situation, where you’re trying to look at S4C partially through the prism of the CSR and partially through the prism of the charter review, doesn’t enable one to have a proper conversation on the channel more broadly, and Welsh-medium provision more broadly.
09:45
[111] Christine Chapman: Any other questions?
[112] Mike Hedges: Yes. Can I do what I always do, which is talk about sport? We have a problem—the Welsh football association, for very good financial reasons, sold Welsh international football to Sky and, of course, the premiership is also on Sky. If you look at Scotland, for example, BBC Alba show Scottish premier division matches and get the sort of viewing figures that can exceed a million for some of the bigger games. So, that is something that is missing from S4C. They’re not going to be able to show live football in competition with Sky; Sky will not allow that. But, one thing I’ve asked for, and would you agree with me, is to run it later and show it as live so that you play the whole match, but you play it an hour or two hours later? It’s not ideal, but it would be actually providing an opportunity for terrestrial television and S4C to show Wales football matches, albeit later, and, also, the same thing with the premiership.
[113] Christine Chapman: Have you got any views on this?
[114] Mr Powell: I might be wrong, but I was under the impression it was the Union of European Football Associations that sold the rights to Sky, not the—
[115] Mike Hedges: The Welsh FA sold them. Each football association sells their own rights.
[116] Mr Powell: Okay, I thought UEFA had pulled in that. Anyway, ideally—
[117] —buasai gemau’n cael eu darlledu ar S4C a byddai hynny ar gael trwy wledydd Prydain i gyd, petai S4C ar gael ar Freeview ar draws holl wledydd Prydain. Byddai hynny’n ddelfrydol, a byddent yn cael eu darlledu yn fyw ac yn Gymraeg. Y safbwynt y mae Sky wedi’i gymryd ydy bod yna alw pitw am y gwasanaeth efo sylwebaeth Gymraeg. Os felly, ni fedraf i ragweld y bydden nhw’n gwrthwynebu bod S4C yn darlledu efo sylwebaeth Gymraeg ar yr un pryd achos ni fyddai hynny’n amharu llawer ar eu gwasanaethau nhw.		—matches would be broadcast on S4C and that would be available throughout the whole of the UK if S4C were available on Freeview across the UK. That would be the ideal, and they would be broadcast live and with Welsh commentary. The stance taken by Sky is that there was scant demand for Welsh-medium commentary on its service. If so, I can’t see why they would object to S4C broadcasting with Welsh commentary at the same time, because that wouldn’t have much of an impact on their services.
[118] Ond y gwir yw, pan oedd y gemau ar S4C, mi oedden nhw’n denu llawer mwy o wylwyr nag ydyn nhw ar Sky efo sylwebaeth Gymraeg. Mi oedd yna broblem—roedd y sylwebaeth Gymraeg ddim ond ar gael trwy un ffordd o wylio. Nid oedd o ar gael os oeddech chi’n gwylio dros y we neu trwy focsys gwahanol. Felly, roedd yna lawer o ffactorau yn golygu nad oedd o’n bosib i bob gwyliwr fedru dewis y sylwebaeth Gymraeg.		But the truth is that when the matches were on S4C, they attracted far more viewers than they do on Sky with Welsh-language commentary. There was a problem where the Welsh-medium commentary was only available through one sort of platform. It wasn’t available if you were watching online or through different boxes. There were a number of factors that meant that it wasn’t possible for all viewers to select the Welsh-language commentary.
[119] Nid wyf i’n meddwl y byddai fo’n deg i’r darllediad o’r gêm, efo sylwebaeth Gymraeg, ddigwydd ar ôl y gêm ei hun, achos mi fyddai hynny’n tanseilio’r iaith Gymraeg ac yn cynnig gwasanaeth israddol, yn enwedig wrth gofio natur y gêm. Er enghraifft, pan ddaru i Gymru golli’r gêm ddiwethaf ond dal mynd trwodd oherwydd canlyniad ar yr un pryd mewn gwlad arall, wel, mae hynny’n rhan o’r cyffro—bod y pethau yma’n cyd-ddigwydd yn fyw. Na, nid wyf i’n gweld y byddai darlledu yn y Gymraeg yn hwyrach yn ffordd ymlaen o gwbl.		I don’t think it would be fair for the broadcast of the match with a Welsh-medium commentary, to happen after the event, as it were, because that would undermine the Welsh language and provide a second-rate service, particularly bearing in mind the nature of the game. For example, when Wales lost the last match, but still went through because of a result at the same time in another country, well, that’s part of the excitement—that these things happen concurrently live. I don’t think that broadcasting later through the medium of Welsh would be any way forward.
[120] Mr Nosworthy: Rydym ni’n dod o’r safbwynt bod gan bobl yr hawl sylfaenol i weld a chlywed y Gymraeg. Os ydym yn dilyn y peth trwyddo, dylai gemau pêl-droed Cymru fod yn fyw ar S4C a dylai fod yn hawl inni—i weld y gemau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Un peth y mae S4C yn ei ddweud ydy bod costau chwaraeon yn uchel iawn iddyn nhw. Rydym ni wedi sôn yn y papur am y syniad o’r posibiliad o edrych ar hawliau darlledu arbennig i ieithoedd lleiafrifol. Mae’n syniad sydd angen edrych arno fe achos mae cost chwaraeon yn uchel ac, hefyd, byddai potensial i gynyddu cyrhaeddiad y sianel trwy wneud hynny.		Mr Nosworthy: We come from the viewpoint that people have a basic right to hear and see the Welsh language. If we follow that through, Welsh football games should be live on S4C and that should be a right of ours—to see the games through the medium of Welsh. One thing that S4C is saying is that the costs of sport are very high for them. We’ve mentioned in the paper the idea of the possibility of looking at special broadcasting rights for minority languages. It’s an idea that we need to look at, because the cost of sport is high, and, also, there would be potential to increase the channel’s reach by doing that.
[121] Mike Hedges: Can I just say it was the last-but-one match, actually, where they qualified when they lost, rather than the last match? They actually won the last match. [Laughter.] If you’re going into that, this is well outside the competency of this committee. It would really be something that would have to be on a pan-European level, because Sky have paid an awful lot of money to the Football Association of Wales for exclusivity, and, much as we might want them to, they’re not going to give that up unless instructed to by a higher body.
[122] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, rwy’n meddwl efallai fod angen i’r pwyllgor edrych i mewn i hynny, os oes modd o fewn cylch gorchwyl y pwyllgor, oherwydd rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n rhannol gysylltiedig gyda darpariaeth sylwebaeth Gymraeg. Felly, ynghlwm â’r cynnig, efallai fod lle i ddadlau nad yw Sky yn cydymffurfio â’r hyn roedd yn ei gynnig ar y dechrau, sef y sylwebaeth Gymraeg ar y pryd. Felly, mae cwestiynau i’w codi ynghylch darpariaeth Sky yn hynny o beth.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, I think the committee perhaps does need to look into that, if it’s possible within the committee’s remit, because I do think that was partially related to the provision of Welsh-medium commentary. So, perhaps there is room to make the case that Sky is in dereliction of what they offered initially, which was a Welsh-medium option for the commentary. So, there are some questions to ask on Sky’s provision in that regard.
[123] Christine Chapman: Aled, did you want to come in?
[124] Mr Powell: Byddai datganoli darlledu yn caniatáu hefyd i Lywodraeth Cymru osod rhai digwyddiadau chwaraeon fel rhai o bwysigrwydd cenedlaethol i Gymru, ac felly i warchod yr hawliau fel eu bod nhw’n cael eu darlledu gan y sianeli cyhoeddus, yn yr un modd ag sy’n wir am nifer o ddigwyddiadau o bwys ar lefel Brydeinig o ran y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan.		Mr Powell: Devolving broadcasting would also allow the Welsh Government to earmark some sporting events as being of national importance to Wales, and to therefore protect the rights so that those events are broadcast by public broadcasters, in the same way that a number of major British events are protected by the Westminster Government.
[125] Christine Chapman: Thank you. Now, we’ve got about 10 minutes, and I know some Members want to come in. Peter first.
[126] Peter Black: Yes, thank you, Chair. You say in your evidence that the best way to improve the state of Welsh-language broadcasting is to expand S4C services, rather than to rely solely on the BBC, and, obviously, you quote the lack of a high-definition service as supporting that. You also state that S4C should have a role in running the proposed new multiplatform Welsh-language service. Can you expand on why you think S4C is the right vehicle for that particular expansion, rather than relying on the BBC or other broadcasters?
[127] Mr Nosworthy: Mae’r cyngor rydym ni wedi ei gael yn dweud bod awdurdod S4C yn gorff sy’n gymwys i fod yn atebol iddo fe ac y gellid sefydlu rhagor o wasanaethau o dan awdurdod S4C. Rwy’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi cael trafodaethau. Yr hyn nad ydym ni eisiau ei weld yw un darparwr, sef y BBC, yn dominyddu’r farchnad Gymraeg. Mae hynny’n wir o ran y Saesneg hefyd, ond yn arbennig o wir o ran y Gymraeg. Rydym ni eisiau sefydlu endid newydd. Un opsiwn ydy ei wneud yn atebol i awdurdod S4C, ond rydym ni’n meddwl, trwy greu endid annibynnol—y darlledwr newydd yma—y gellid creu egni a ffresni, a hefyd galluogi’r Gymraeg i fod yn barod ar gyfer oes cydgyfeiriant, lle nad ydym ni jest yn edrych ar dderbyn pethau trwy'r cyfryngau presennol, trwy radio a theledu, gan fod pobl ifanc yn edrych cymaint ar-lein, ar YouTube, ac yn y blaen, fel bod gennych chi ddarlledwr yn barod ar gyfer y byd aml-blatfform. Mae S4C yn gyfyngedig o dan y statud i fod yn sianel deledu yn bennaf. Mae angen ailedrych ar hynny. Mae’n annhebygol iawn y gallai hynny ddigwydd ar lefel Brydeinig. Byddai hynny’n fantais o ran datganoli darlledu hefyd, o bosib.		Mr Nosworthy: The advice we have received states that the S4C authority could have another body accountable to it and that more services could be established under the S4C authority. I think we have had discussions. What we don’t want to see is one provider, namely the BBC, dominating the Welsh market. That’s also true in the English market, but is especially true in Welsh. We want to establish a new entity. One option is to make it accountable to the S4C authority, but we think, through the creation of an independent entity—this new broadcaster—that it would be possible to create an energy and freshness, and also allow the Welsh language to be ready for the convergence era, where we’re not just looking at receiving things through current media, such as radio and television, given that young people look so much online, on YouTube, and so on, so that you have the broadcaster that is ready for the multiplatform age. S4C is limited by statute to be a television channel primarily. We need to look at that again. It’s very unlikely that that could happen at a UK level. That would be a benefit resulting from the devolution of broadcasting as well, perhaps.
[128] Peter Black: I accept that can’t be done at a UK level, and, obviously, what you’re describing sounds quite interesting. Are you just creating another monopoly provider, though, in S4C?
[129] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, mae hynny’n bwynt diddorol. Byddai’r BBC yn dal i ddarparu rhai gwasanaethau yn Gymraeg, ond byddai S4C yn darparu mwy. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna deimlad ein bod ni angen rhagor o ddarparwyr. Rydym ni wedi cynnwys yr opsiwn bod hynny’n dod o dan S4C, ond mae opsiwn arall lle gallai fod yn gwbl annibynnol. Y prif bwynt yw bod annibyniaeth ar y BBC o ran darlledwr arall. Mae perygl, wrth gwrs, fod y BBC yn mynd i draflyncu S4C mwy a mwy achos yr adolygiad gwariant a newidiadau eraill, ond annibyniaeth ar y BBC yw’r prif beth, ac un opsiwn yw i weld hynny yng nghyd-destun atebolrwydd i awdurdod S4C.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, that’s an interesting point. The BBC would still provide some services in Welsh, but S4C would provide more. I think there is a feeling that we need more providers. We’ve included the option that that comes under S4C, but there is another option, which is that it could be completely independent. The main point is that there is independence from the BBC in terms of other broadcasters. There is a risk that S4C will be subsumed into the BBC more and more because of the spending review and other changes, but independence from the BBC is the main thing, and one option is to see that in the context of accountability to the S4C authority.
[130] Peter Black: At the moment, we’ve got S4C, which can’t afford the HD channel; they’re reliant on the BBC for, I think, 15 hours of broadcasting, or something like that in terms of doing that; they obviously don’t have a radio channel; and their online presence is fairly limited. So, what sort of resources do you think we’re going to need to set up this multimedia entity, which I think we’re all attracted to but which I think would be quite expensive?
[131] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, rwy’n meddwl yn y papur ein bod ni wedi sôn am gost sefydlu o ryw £10 miliwn, ac wedyn costau rhedeg y gwasanaeth o £5 miliwn. Dyna pam rydym ni wedi sôn am y lefi fel ffynhonnell arall o arian, er mwyn ehangu hynny. Nid oeddem ni’n disgwyl toriad i arian S4C yn yr adolygiad gwariant. Rydym ni’n gweithredu ar y sail bod llywodraethau yn cadw at addewidion maniffesto. Felly, rydym ni wedi ysgrifennu ein cynigion ni ar y sail hyderus ein bod ni’n mynd i’w gweld nhw yn cadw at yr addewid hynny. Rydym ni eisiau bod yn uchelgeisiol dros y Gymraeg. Fel roeddwn i’n dweud yn gynharach, mae twf aruthrol wedi bod yn nifer y gwasanaethau Saesneg. Mae Cymraeg yn aros gydag un orsaf radio, un sianel deledu—y lleiafswm y mae siartr ieithoedd lleiafrifol Ewrop yn caniatáu i Lywodraeth Prydain ei ddarparu. Ond eto, os ydych chi’n edrych ar wledydd eraill, mae lot fwy o ddarpariaeth.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, I think in the paper we’ve mentioned the establishment cost of £10 million and then service running costs of about £5 million. That’s why we’ve mentioned the levy as another source of funding, in order to broaden that. We didn’t expect a cut to S4C funding in the spending review. We’re operating on the basis that governments stick to manifesto commitments. So, we’ve written our proposal based on the confidence that we are going to see commitments adhered to. We want to be ambitious for the Welsh language. As I said earlier, there’s been great growth in English-medium services, but Welsh still has one radio station and one tv station—the minimum that the European charter for minority languages allows the UK Government to provide. But again, if you look at other countries, there is much more provision.
[132] So, rwy’n derbyn y pwynt bod S4C yn wan. Rydym ni eisiau cryfhau’r sefyllfa yna, ac rydym ni’n disgwyl i’r Llywodraeth—. Dylai’r Llywodraeth wrthdroi’r penderfyniad i wneud y toriadau, a dylem ni weld, fel oedd y ddadl ar y pryd—y dirwasgiad oedd y rheswm dros dorri arian S4C; mae’r dirwasgiad drosodd yn ôl y Llywodraeth, felly dylai lefel ariannu S4C ddod nôl at y lefel yr oedd hi ar y pryd. Felly, rydym ni wedi gosod allan cynigion i ehangu darpariaeth Gymraeg. Mae’n siomedig tu hwnt, i ddweud y lleiaf, fod Llywodraeth Prydain, trwy’r toriadau, yn bygwth yr hyn sydd gyda ni yn barod.		So, I accept the point that S4C is weak. We want to strengthen that situation, and we expect the Government—. The Government should overturn the decision to make cuts and, as we saw, the argument at the time was that the recession was behind the cuts, and the recession is over according to the Government, so the level of funding for S4C should return to the level that it was at that time. Therefore, we have set out our proposals to expand Welsh-medium provision. We’re very disappointed, to say the least, that the UK Government, through the cuts, is threatening what we have already.
[133] Peter Black: Diolch yn fawr.
[134] Christine Chapman: Lindsay.
[135] Lindsay Whittle: Diolch yn fawr. Bore da. Diolch yn fawr am ddod. Rwy’n dysgu Cymraeg, ond, y bore yma, mae’n rhaid imi siarad yn Saesneg, yn anffodus.		Lindsay Whittle: Good morning. Thank you very much for coming. I am a Welsh learner, but this morning I will have to ask my questions in English, unfortunately.
[136] The Welsh Government’s view is that there should be an independent review of the partnership between S4C and the BBC. Do you share that view? Who should carry out the review, in your opinion?
[137] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, fel roeddwn i’n dweud yn gynharach, y rheswm yr ydym ni wedi dweud bod yna ddadl dros adolygiad yw oherwydd yr addewid a wnaed yn ôl yn 2010, sef, os cofiaf yn iawn, y byddai adolygiad cyn newid sefyllfa ariannol S4C. Byddwn i’n gyndyn o ddweud y byddai’r adolygiad yna yn ateb i bopeth, achos byddai cylch gorchwyl yr adolygiad hynny mor bwysig. Nid ydym ni wedi ystyried pwy ddylai wneud yr adolygiad, os oes yna un. Rwy’n meddwl bod Llywodraeth Prydain wedi gwneud addewid i redeg adolygiad, ac felly yr awgrym oedd y byddai Llywodraeth Prydain yn gwneud hynny. Ond nid oes gyda ni farn glir ynghylch pwy ddylai wneud hynny.		Mr Nosworthy: Well, as I was saying earlier, the reason why we have said that there is a case for a review is the pledge made back in 2010, if I remember correctly, namely that there would be a review before any change to the financial position of S4C. I would be reluctant in saying that a review would be a panacea, because the remit of that review would be so important. We haven’t considered who should carry out that review, should there be one. I do think that the UK Government had made a pledge to have that review, and therefore the suggestion was that it would be conducted by the UK Government, but we have no clear view on who should carry out that review.
[138] Lindsay Whittle: Okay. The UK Government hasn’t exactly covered itself in glory, especially with the funding cuts. If you look at what’s happening to BBC Alba, I mean, it’s devastating there. S4C’s in a really fragile condition, and I think the BBC’s involvement in funding has led to tensions. Your evidence—I think it’s paragraph 4.1.2—says you’re concerned about these tensions. What evidence do you have that there are tensions there?
[139] Mr Nosworthy: Y rheswm rydym ni’n cynnwys hynny yw’r rheswm y  sefydlwyd S4C yn y lle cyntaf, sef fel na fyddai dadl rhwng y ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau Saesneg a’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau Cymraeg. Y perig ydy bod gyda chi sefyllfa lle rydych chi’n brwydro rhwng gwahanol wasanaethau achos nad oes sail gadarn i S4C. O ran y tensiynau, rwy’n meddwl yr hyn yr ydym ni wedi ei weld ydy partneriaeth un ffordd, os liciwch chi. Er bod yna fodd i groesawu bod gwasanaethau S4C ar iPlayer, dylai S4C Clic gael ei chryfhau fel ei bod hi’n gallu darparu ar y platfform hynny. Felly, er bod manteision o gael S4C ar iPlayer, nid ydym ni’n  gweld y buddsoddiad y byddai rhywun yn ei ddisgwyl gan S4C i’w galluogi nhw fel darlledwr annibynnol i ddarparu’r pethau hynny. I fod yn onest, o ran y tensiynau, mae’n eithaf clir—mae’n anodd i ni ddweud—os wyt ti’n edrych ar y llythyr ym mis Gorffennaf gan Whittingdale ac Osborne at y BBC, eu bod yn awgrymu bod y BBC yn gallu gwneud rhagor o doriadau i’w cyfraniad nhw i S4C, sy’n awgrymu efallai bod y BBC wedi bod yn gwneud—. Nid i ni yw hi i gwestiynu ond—. Hynny yw, mae fel bod rhywun wedi gofyn am y caniatâd hwnnw. Rydym ni’n gwybod o dystiolaeth y BBC yr oedden nhw’n pryderu am gael y cyfrifoldeb am S4C yn y lle cyntaf. Mae tensiynau yn cael eu hamlygu yn yr ohebiaeth gyhoeddus rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r BBC.		Mr Nosworthy: We’ve included that because the reason for the establishment of S4C in the first place was that there shouldn’t be any conflict between English-medium provision and Welsh-medium provision. The risk is that you have a situation where you see some conflict between the various different services because there is no firm foundation for S4C. In terms of the tensions, I think what we’ve seen is a one-way partnership, if you like. Although one could welcome the fact that S4C’s services are now available on iPlayer, S4C Clic should be strengthened so it does make provision on that platform. Although there are benefits and advantages in having S4C on iPlayer, we don’t see the investment that one would expect by S4C to enable them as an independent broadcaster to actually make that provision itself. To be honest, in terms of the tension, it’s quite clear—it’s difficult for us to say—if you look at the letter of July from Whittingdale and Osborne to the BBC, that they suggest that the BBC can make further cuts to their contribution to S4C, which suggests that perhaps the BBC has been making—. It’s not for us to question that, but—. That is, it does appear that someone has asked for that permission or consent. We know from the BBC’s evidence that they were concerned about taking responsibility for S4C in the first place. Tensions are being highlighted in the public correspondence between the Government and the BBC.
10:00
[140] Lindsay Whittle: Thank you very much.
[141] Christine Chapman: Thank you. Finally, Janet.
[142] Janet Finch-Saunders: Thank you. You’ve raised concerns regarding a lack of democratic discussion around the funding of S4C. Could you just elaborate on that for me, please?
[143] Mr Nosworthy: Wel, hynny yw, mae yna demtasiwn—		Mr Nosworthy: Well, that is, there is a temptation—
[144] Janet Finch-Saunders: I’m not saying I disagree, actually, with you on that.
[145] Mr Nosworthy: Un enghraifft ydy, fel rwyf i wedi sôn yn gynharach, yn 2010, gwnaed penderfyniad yn llythrennol o fewn 24 awr, neu gwpl o ddiwrnodau, am arian S4C. Cawsoch chi’r un math o beth yn y llythyr ym mis Gorffennaf gan Whittingdale ac Osborne at y BBC. Mae’n sarhaus, y ffordd mae’n cael ei drin, achos nid oes hyd yn oed ymdrech i ymddangos fel eu bod nhw’n cynnwys lleisiau democrataidd Cymru yn y broses. Fe wnaethom ni ysgrifennu at John Whittingdale yn ceisio darganfod beth oedd ystyr gwneud lan y diffyg yn y llythyr rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r BBC. Gwnaethom ni ysgrifennu tair gwaith. Gwnaethom ni byth gael ateb gan John Whittingdale a gwnaethom ni gael ateb gan swyddog a oedd ddim yn ateb y cwestiwn. Mae’n anodd ymwneud â’r broses—		Mr Nosworthy: One example, as I’ve mentioned earlier, is in 2010, there was a decision made, literally within 24 hours, or a couple of days, about S4C’s funding. You had the same kind of thing in the letter in July from Whittingdale and Osborne to the BBC. It’s insulting, really, the way it’s being dealt with, because there’s no effort, even, to appear as if they’re including the democratic voices of Wales in the process. We wrote to John Whittingdale to try and find out what the meaning of making up the deficit was in the letter between the Government and the BBC. We wrote three times, and we never had an answer from John Whittingdale. We did get a response from an official, who didn’t answer the question. It’s difficult to be involved in the process—
[146] Janet Finch-Saunders: It’s not good.
[147] Mr Nosworthy:—pan nad wyt ti’n gallu cael pethau sylfaenol fel—. Rydym ni wedi bod yn trio cael cyfarfod gyda John Whittingdale i drafod hyn. Nid oes dim elfen o graffu neu ymwneud â’r broses, a beth sydd gyda chi yw fait accompli yn cael ei osod rhwng trafodaethau rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r BBC yn Llundain sydd ddim yn cymryd i ystyriaeth llais pobl Cymru na’r Cynulliad chwaith. Mae’r sefyllfa’n ddifrifol, yn ddifrifol iawn.		Mr Nosworthy:—when you can’t get basic things such as—. We’ve been trying to get meetings with John Whittingdale to discuss this. There’s no element of scrutiny or involvement in the process, and what you have is a fait accompli being set out in discussions between the BBC and the Government in London that don’t take into consideration the voice of the people of Wales or the Assembly either. So, you know, the situation is serious, very serious.
[148] Mi wnaethom ni redeg ymdrech gref iawn i atal y Llywodraeth rhag diddymu’r fformiwla ariannu statudol. Roedden nhw, yn y lle cyntaf, yn ceisio cael y grym i ddiddymu S4C fel corff. Ni a lwyddodd i atal hynny rhag digwydd, ond nid oes dim elfen o ddemocratiaeth yn y broses.		We carried out a very strong campaign to prevent the Government from abolishing the statutory funding formula. In the first place, they were trying to get the power to abolish S4C as a body. We were the ones who succeeded in stopping that from happening, but there is no democratic element to the process.
[149] Wrth edrych ar lythyr Whittingdale ac Osborne, mae yna awgrym yn y fan yna eu bod nhw wedi penderfynu beth sydd yn arian digonol, achos maen nhw’n dweud, ‘Gwnawn ni benderfynu sut i wneud lan y diffyg’, nid ‘A ddylid gwneud lan y diffyg?’ Ond nid ydym ni’n gallu cael unrhyw atebion am beth yw ystyr hynny. Roedd hynny’n awgrymu bod arian o’r Llywodraeth yn mynd i gynyddu, achos os wyt ti’n caniatáu i’r BBC wneud toriad, mae’n awgrymu bod y grant gan Lywodraeth Prydain yn mynd i fynd lan. Ond maen nhw wedi ei dorri fe. Nid yn unig maen nhw wedi ei dorri fe, ond maen nhw’n ei dorri fe yn ystod y cyfnod pan maen nhw’n caniatáu i’r BBC dorri’r arian. Nawr, beth yw ystyr gwneud lan y diffyg neu benderfynu sut i wneud lan y diffyg mewn cyd-destun lle maen nhw’n torri’r arian gan y Llywodraeth a chaniatáu i’r BBC dorri’r arian? Nid ydym ni’n gwybod beth yw’r sefyllfa. Nid oes un elfen o ddemocratiaeth yn y broses.		In looking at the letter from Whittingdale and Osborne, there is a suggestion there that they had decided what is sufficient funding, because they say, ‘We’ll decide how to make up the shortfall’, not ‘Should the shortfall be made up?’ But we can’t get any answers as to the meaning of that. That suggested that funding from the Government was going to increase, because if you allow the BBC to make a cut, it suggests that the grant from the UK Government is going to go up. But they’ve cut it. Not only have they cut it, but they’ve cut it during the period when they’re allowing the BBC to cut the funding. Now, what is the meaning of making up the shortfall or deciding how to make up the shortfall in a context where they’re cutting Government funding and allowing the BBC to cut the funding? We don’t know what the situation is. There’s not one democratic element in the process
[150] Christine Chapman: Aled.
[151] Mr Powell: Mae’r toriad wythnos diwethaf yn groes i faniffesto’r blaid Geidwadol yng Nghymru ac yn dangos y sefyllfa’n glir. Os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan hyd yn oed yn gwrando ar lais eu plaid eu hunain yng Nghymru, yna, ydynt, mae’r penderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud yn hollol annemocrataidd.		Mr Powell: Last week’s cut is contrary to the manifesto of the Conservative party in Wales, and that demonstrates the situation clearly. If the Government in Westminster isn’t even listening to their own party in Wales, then, yes, the decisions are taken in an entirely undemocratic way.
[152] Christine Chapman: Janet, any other questions?
[153] Janet Finch-Saunders: To what extent are you confident that the value of indigenous language broadcast is being considered during the charter renewal process? You’re not—.
[154] Mr Nosworthy: Dim o gwbl. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna un pwynt ychwanegol o ran y Papur Gwyrdd. Mae anghysondeb difrifol yn y rhesymeg, ac rwy’n meddwl bod y BBC, i fod yn deg, wedi gwneud y pwynt yna mewn rhai sesiynau. Maen nhw’n dweud ar yr un llaw nad ydyn nhw eisiau i’r BBC ehangu i mewn i feysydd yn ormodol, ond ar y llaw arall maen nhw’n dweud, ‘Wel, mae ffigurau gwylio ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn isel’. Nid ydyn nhw’n gallu ei gael e’r ddwy ffordd. Nid wyt ti’n gallu dweud ar yr un llaw, ‘Nid yw’r pethau rydych yn eu darparu yn cael digon o wylwyr’ ond, ar y llaw arall, ‘Ni ddylid gwneud pethau eraill’. Rwy’n meddwl bod anghysondeb ynghlwm â hynny. Aled, oeddet ti’n moyn dweud rhywbeth?		Mr Nosworthy: Not at all. I think there’s one additional point in terms of the Green Paper. There is a serious inconsistency in the rationale, and I think the BBC, to be fair, has made that point in some sessions. They say on the one hand that they don’t want the BBC to expand into certain areas too greatly, but, on the other hand, they say, ‘Well, the viewing figures for minority languages are low’. They can’t have it both ways. You can’t say on the one hand, ‘Those things that you’re providing aren’t attracting enough of an audience’, but on the other hand, ‘You shouldn’t be doing other things’. I think there is an inconsistency there. Aled, did you want to come in?
[155] Mr Powell: Mae’n adlewyrchu’r diffyg sylw cyffredinol sydd yna i’r ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn allbwn y BBC ar draws gwledydd Prydain. Mae diffyg ymwybyddiaeth brawychus o fodolaeth yr iaith Gymraeg jest dros Glawdd Offa, sydd yn fater y  byddwn yn disgwyl byddai’n dod o dan gylch gwaith y BBC ar lefel Brydeinig hefyd.		Mr Powell: It does reflect the general lack of coverage for minority languages in the BBC’s output across the nations of Britain. There is a shocking lack of awareness of the existence of the Welsh language just over Offa’s Dyke, which is an issue that I would have expected to be included in the BBC’s remit on a UK level.
[156] Mr Nosworthy: Ond hefyd, mae penderfyniad wedi cael ei wneud o ran arian S4C y tu allan i gyd-destun adolygiad y siartr. Felly, i ba raddau mae’r adolygiad yn berthnasol? Ond, ar yr un pryd, mae Gweinidogion yn ysgrifennu yn ôl atom ni yn dweud—. Wel, mae Gweinidogion yn ysgrifennu’n ôl at bobl eraill, yn dweud, ‘Ymatebwch i adolygiad y siartr’ ond, ar yr un pryd, maen nhw’n gwneud penderfyniadau sydd ddim yn cymryd hynny mewn i ystyriaeth.		Mr Nosworthy: But also, a decision has been made on the funding of S4C outwith the context of the charter review negotiation. Therefore, to what extent is that review relevant? But, at the same time, Ministers are writing back to us saying—. Well, Ministers are writing to other people, saying, ‘Respond to the charter review’, but at the same time, they are making decisions that don’t take that into account at all.
[157] Christine Chapman: Bethan, finally, then, because we’ve run over now. Bethan.
[158] Bethan Jenkins: Jest yn dilyn ymlaen o hynny, felly. O ran y memorandwm o ddealltwriaeth sydd yn bodoli rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth San Steffan, a ydych chi’n meddwl bod hynny wedi cael ei dorri yn barod, oherwydd yr hyn sydd yn digwydd gydag S4C, neu ydych chi’n credu bydd y memorandwm hwn yn gallu arwain at ddatblygiadau mwy positif o’r siartr?		Bethan Jenkins: Just following on from that, therefore. In terms of the memorandum of understanding that exists between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, do you think that that has been breached already, because of what’s happening with S4C, or do you believe that the memorandum will be able to lead to more positive developments from the charter?
[159] Rwy’n deall, gyda’r toriadau, bod hynny wedi digwydd, felly mae’n ateb y cwestiwn ynglŷn â hynny. Ond, a fydd y memorandwm yma, sy’n mynd i esblygu at Gomisiwn y Cynulliad nawr, yn mynd i allu mynd i’r afael gyda rhai o’r pryderon ynglŷn â’r BBC yn torri, a fydd yn effeithio ar botensial delifro drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?		I understand that with the cuts, that’s happened, so that answers that question. But will that memorandum, which is going to go to the Assembly Commission now, be able to tackle some of the concerns about the BBC cuts, which will affect the potential of delivery through the medium of Welsh?
[160] Mr Nosworthy: Nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i ystyried y memorandwm yn fanwl. Ond, o’r profiad rydym wedi gweld, nid yw Llywodraeth Prydain yn cymryd ystyriaeth o’i brosesau ei hunan o ran adolygu’r siartr, a’i addewid i wneud adolygiad o S4C cyn gwneud penderfyniad ynghylch ariannu S4C. Felly, mae’n codi cwestiwn mawr a fyddai dull o’r fath yn ddigonol i sicrhau nad ydynt yn gwneud yr un peth eto. Rwy’n meddwl bod cwestiwn mawr yn hynny o beth.		Mr Nosworthy: I haven’t had an opportunity to consider the memorandum in detail. But, from our experience, the UK Government doesn’t take account of its own processes in terms of reviewing the charter, and their pledge to carry out a review of S4C before making a decision on the funding of S4C. Therefore, that raises a major question as to whether such an approach would be adequate in ensuring that they don’t do the same again. I think there is a major question there.
[161] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.
[162] Christine Chapman: I think, on that point, we will draw this part of the meeting to a close. Can I thank our witnesses very much? I think we’ve had a really good discussion this morning, and this will certainly help us in our deliberations. So, can I thank the three of you for attending? You may like to check the Record when we send it to you, to check that there are no inaccuracies. So, thank you very much for attending.
10:08
Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note
[163] Christine Chapman: Before I close the meeting publicly, could I invite the committee to note some papers there? Okay; thank you.
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting
Cynnig:		Motion:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).		that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved.
[164] Christine Chapman: Are you content for us to move into private session for the remainder of the meeting? Okay; thank you.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:08. The public part of the meeting ended at 10:08.