Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance
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Russell George
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Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh
Conservatives
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Bethan Jenkins
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Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales
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William Powell
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Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Cadeirydd y
Pwyllgor)
Welsh Liberal Democrats (Committee
Chair)
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Joyce Watson
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Llafur
Labour
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Eraill yn bresennol
Others in
attendance
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Cenric Clement-Evans
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Deisebydd
Petitioner
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Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn
bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials
in attendance
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Kayleigh Driscoll
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Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
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Steve George
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Clerc
Clerk
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Lisa Salkeld
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Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
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Kath Thomas
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Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
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Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:01.
The meeting began at 09:01.
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Cyflwyniad,
Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introduction, Apologies and
Substitutions
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[1]
William Powell: Bore da, bawb. Good morning, all, and
welcome to this meeting of the Petitions Committee. We have no
apologies—a full complement of Members—and the normal
housekeeping arrangements apply. We shall have a substantial
visiting delegation in the public gallery from the Landtag of
Baden-Württemberg in Germany, and hopefully they’ll
enjoy their observation of today’s proceedings. They
represent the petitions committee from their state Parliament, and
we have an opportunity to link up with them later on.
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09:03
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Deisebau
Newydd
New Petitions
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[2]
William Powell: In the meantime, if we move straight to
agenda item 2—new petitions. Agenda item 2.1, P-04-653,
‘Ban the Use of Wild Animals in Circuses in Wales’.
This petition was submitted just last week by RSPCA Cymru and
collected 517 signatures on the Assembly’s website between 5
May and 9 October of this year. An additional 7,268 signatures were
gathered via the RSPCA Cymru website and offline by RSPCA
volunteers. And the text of that petition reads as follows:
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[3]
‘We, the undersigned: Believe the complex needs of wild
animals can never be adequately met in a circus environment; Note
that wild animals continue to face the prospect of life in an
unsuitable circus environment in Wales; Urge the Welsh Government
to ensure an outright ban on the use of wild animals in circuses is
introduced in Wales as soon as possible.’
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[4]
And in terms of additional information, we’ve got a weblink
there to a section of the RSPCA website that flags up further work
that the organisation has done. And we’re joined this morning
as well by Mr Fidler Jones of the RSPCA, and we’re very
pleased to have him on board in the public gallery this
morning.
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[5]
A first consideration letter was sent to the Minister for Natural
Resources on 15 September. We’ve got a response from the
Minister, and that is in the public papers. The petitioners have
also submitted further comments, which also are in the public
papers. Clearly, I think we need to ask the Minister to respond to
the further comments we’ve received from the RSPCA. Are there
any other actions that colleagues would like to see in relation to
this? Joyce.
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[6]
Joyce Watson: Thank you, Chair. I think that the
Minister’s letter is encouraging—that’s the first
thing—because she said that she shares the concerns that are
expressed. Yet, we do need answers on this and to see if
they’re going to move forward as requested; I suppose that is
the real bit of information that we want. I’m not absolutely
certain, Chair, whether I’ve signed this petition or not, but
I know that I would support it.
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[7]
William Powell: Okay. We’ll take that as a
precautionary declaration of interest in the matter. I also need to
indicate that I’ve expressed views previously and more
recently in support of this petition. Bethan, you indicated.
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[8]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n credu fy mod i wedi
arwyddo deiseb yr RSPCA, ond nid yr un yma. Rwyf jest eisiau gofyn
a allwn ni gael mwy o fanylion gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â
sut maen nhw’n mynd i gario mas yr adolygiad annibynnol yma.
Maen nhw’n dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i edrych ar y
dystiolaeth. Ydyn nhw’n mynd i gysylltu â mudiadau fel
yr RSPCA a mudiadau sydd yn gweithio er lles anifeiliaid i weld sut
fath o dystiolaeth sydd ganddyn nhw yn hynny o
beth? Ac rwyf eisiau gwybod
amserlen yr adolygiad annibynnol y mae’r Llywodraeth yn mynd
i’w wneud, felly, os bydden ni’n gallu gofyn mewn
llythyr yn ôl—. Hefyd, maen nhw’n dweud yn y
llythyr gan Rebecca Evans eu bod nhw’n cael trafodaethau brys
nawr gyda llywodraeth leol. Wel, mae trafodaethau yn un peth ond a
oes unrhyw beth yn mynd i ddigwydd o ganlyniad? Felly, a allwn ni
ofyn i’r Gweinidog a oes tystiolaeth, neu a oes unrhyw
gyfarfodydd yn mynd i fod yn digwydd, er mwyn inni ddeall yn iawn
beth sy’n cael ei wneud o ran y mater yma? Mae’n fater mawr yn fy ardal i, oherwydd
mae sioe ‘A Night with Lions and Tigers’ wedi
bod teithio o gwmpas fy ardal i yn benodol ar hyn o bryd. Rwyf
eisiau sicrhau bod llywodraeth leol yn cael digon o bwerau i allu
asesu’r sefyllfa yn ddigonol a chael y pwerau digonol er mwyn
gallu, os ydyn nhw’n penderfynu gwneud, mynd i mewn a gweld
sut mae’r cwmnïau yma yn gweithredu. So, dyna beth
fyddwn i’n gofyn amdano hefyd, yn ogystal â gofyn
i’r Gweinidog beth yw ei barn hi ynglŷn â chael
deddfwriaeth eilaidd i geisio cael ban yn ei gyfanrwydd yng
Nghymru.
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Bethan
Jenkins: I think I have signed the RSPCA petition, but not this
one. I just want to ask whether we can have more details from the
Government regarding how they’re going to carry out this
independent review. They say they’re looking at the evidence.
Are they going to be contacting organisations such as the RSPCA and
organisations that work for the welfare of animals to see the sort
of evidence that they have in that regard? And I want to know the
timetable regarding this independent review that the
Government’s going to undertake, so, if we could ask in a
letter—. They also say in the letter from Rebecca Evans that
they are having urgent discussions with local government.
Discussions are one thing, but is anything going to come from that?
So, can we ask the Minister if there is evidence or any meetings
planned, so that we can fully understand what is being done on this
issue? This is a big issue in my area, because the show ‘A
Night with Lions and Tigers’ has been travelling around my
area specifically at the moment. I want to ensure that local
government has adequate powers to assess the situation sufficiently
and to have sufficient powers in order that, if they decide to do
so, they can go in and see how these companies are operating. So,
that is what I would be asking for, as well as asking the Minister
what her opinion is on having subordinate legislation to try and
enforce a complete ban in Wales.
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[9]
William Powell: Diolch
yn fawr. Are you suggesting that we should also write at this stage
to the Welsh Local Government Association on the matter, given the
local government dimension, or—?
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[10]
Bethan Jenkins: We could either write to the WLGA or write
to the Minister, saying, ‘What is the nature of those
discussions? Are you coming together in any formal way to make
those discussions—to formalise those discussions? Because,
anybody can have a discussion, but what does that mean, then, for
the wider public?
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[11]
William Powell: Concretely, in terms of—
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[12]
Bethan Jenkins: Yes.
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[13]
William Powell: Okay. Thank you very much for your
contributions. Russell George.
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[14]
Russell George: Chair, I agree with what’s been said
this morning. I just think this is a truly important petition, and
I can see, certainly, this having a degree of cross-party support
in the Senedd as well. Hopefully, we’ll get a positive
response from the Minister on this petition.
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[15]
William Powell: Excellent. It’s made even more timely
and important because of the fact that legislation in another place
fell before Parliament was dissolved. Obviously, we’ve got
the remit here, and I think we can move forward on this. Excellent.
Good. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
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09:07
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Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am
Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions
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[16]
William Powell: Moving now to agenda item 3, updates to
previous petitions, we start with agenda item 3.1, P-04-564.
Previously, our committee has agreed to view this petition on the
restoration of inpatient beds, minor injuries cover and x-ray unit
to the Ffestiniog Memorial Hospital and deal with it jointly with
3.2, which is P-04-466, which, I remind colleagues, is
‘Medical Emergency—Preventing the introduction of a
poorer Health Service for North Wales’ and, indeed, 3.3,
which is P-04-479, ‘Tywyn Memorial Hospital X-ray & Minor
Injuries Unit Petition’. So, we continue to deal with these
in a grouped manner. Obviously, they all fall under the remit of
Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board. There’s some
common ground, but obviously there are specifics in each case for
us to consider.
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[17]
The first of those petitions, the one regarding Ffestiniog Memorial
Hospital, was submitted by Geraint Vaughan Jones, and was first
considered on 17 June 2014, with the support of 2,754 signatures.
We recall that it particularly relates to their concerns about the
focus on that memorial hospital in Blaenau Ffestiniog and their
aspirations for the outcome of, at that stage, what was
awaited—the report by Professor Marcus Longley on rural
healthcare in Wales. In relation to the second petition, we
haven’t got specific updates on that, I think it’s fair
to say. The lead petitioner in that case was Mike Parry, and it was
first considered on 19 March 2013, with the support of 306
signatures. And, finally, the Tywyn Memorial Hospital petition, and
we have late, or recent, correspondence—I’ll give
colleagues a moment to familiarise themselves with that; it was on
our desks when we arrived this morning—from Jennifer Windsor,
who’s one of the petitioners on the Tywyn and district
healthcare action group. That was considered by us first on 15 May
2013 and it had received 4,486 signatures. Colleagues will recall
we also took evidence from two of these three groups of petitioners
at our outreach meeting in north Wales back in November of 2013,
which was a very important opportunity.
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[18]
As requested by the petitioners, I would suggest that we should
probably write to the Minister on this matter to air the issue as
to whether or not decisions that have been taken by Betsi Cadwaladr
university health board in relation to matters pertaining to
Ffestiniog hospital and elsewhere dated from a period when the
previous management was in place, before the Welsh Government
intervention, and that that should be reviewed in case of some sort
of systemic failure in their decision-making process. I understand
the logic there. What views do colleagues have in relation to this
group of petitions? Joyce.
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[19]
Joyce Watson: Chair, we all know that there have been big
changes in Betsi Cadwaladr university health board, probably
preceding these petitions and during them. They do make requests,
and I think it is right and proper that we take those requests to
the appropriate avenue, and it might be the health board in some
cases and the Minister in other cases, and I agree wholeheartedly
that that’s what we’ll do; that’s what
we’re set up to do. But the letter that we have in front of
us highlights the issue of the minor injuries unit in Tywyn, and
the one issue that they want some clarity over is that, when the
minor injuries unit isn’t operating, there is an alternative
provision for those people that they can access. To that end, I
think we need to write to the health board asking what they have
come up with, because there has been, in other places, alternative
provision. It might not be in the hospital, but it’s there
nonetheless, and I think that’s a reasonable request that has
been asked of us.
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[20]
William Powell: Absolutely. Particularly for out of hours
and weekends, residents in that area need to know what is available
to them—
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[21]
Joyce Watson: Indeed.
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[22]
William Powell: —for clarity’s sake.
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[23]
Joyce Watson: Yes. And they have come up with those.
They’ve come up with them in the Tenby area, as I’m
sure you know.
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[24]
William Powell: Absolutely.
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[25]
Joyce Watson: And there are facilities that can be used, so
we need to know the answer. We also need to respect the request of
the petitioners to seek the answers to the other queries that
they’ve put in front of us.
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[26]
William Powell: Yes. Before I go any further, I should put
on the record that I have met a group of petitioners relatively
recently in Porthmadog in terms of the Ffestiniog Memorial Hospital
campaign, led by Geraint Vaughan Jones, and that was a very
informative meeting. I sought to give some procedural advice as to
how best to take forward their long-standing campaign, so I’d
like that to be in the public domain. Russell George.
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[27]
Russell George: Chair, if we are writing to the Minister as
well, I think we could also ask him to review the healthcare plans.
There is a group, the Mid Wales Healthcare Collaborative—I
think they could be, perhaps, involved with that as well.
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[28]
William Powell: I think that would make a lot of sense,
particularly as that particular body is beginning to take shape and
take forward its work agenda. I’m happy to do that.
It’s clear that, although they’re being treated in a
grouped manner, we’ve got distinct letters here reflecting
the different concerns that these petitioners have. Are colleagues
content with that approach? Good. Okay.
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[29]
Moving now to agenda item 3.4, P-04-494, ‘Robotic assisted
laparoscopic prostatectomy must be made available to men in Wales
now’, this petition was submitted by Professor Kevin Davies
MBE and first considered by us on 16 July 2013, with the support of
2,090 signatures. Colleagues will recall the detail of the asks
within this petition and also the memorable presentation that we
had with the robot present on the steps of the Senedd.
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09:15
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[30]
We last considered the petition on 30 June 2015, and agreed a
series of actions: to await further comments from the petitioner,
and also, to write, as suggested by the Minister for Health and
Social Services, to Betsi Cadwaladr university health board,
seeking further clarity on the funding that they would need to
provide robotic-assisted procedures within north Wales. A response
has been received from the health board, which is in the public
papers. We’ve also got detail, as colleagues will have had
the opportunity to study, of the comparative costs associated with
this being carried out on location in north Wales, or in the
Christie hospital. So, we’ve got that as an interesting point
of comparison. What we don’t have, at this time, is a
response from the petitioner, so I think, really, we have to await
that and potentially chase it as well, so that we can move things
forward. If colleagues are happy, then we’ll do just
that.
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[31]
Agenda item 3.5, P-04-603, ‘Helping Babies Born at 22 Weeks
to Survive’: This petition was submitted by Emma Jones, and
was first considered by us on 25 November 2014, having collected
2,543 electronic signatures and 216 paper signatures, so totalling
2,759. We last considered this petition on 16 June, having
previously asked the Health and Social Care Committee to consider
whether they had capacity for an inquiry into the current
guidelines for resuscitation of children born prematurely. The
committee agreed to await the response to the health
committee’s letter—our committee agreed to await the
response to the health committee’s letter to the chief
medical officer. At its meeting on 1 July, the Health and Social
Care Committee noted the response received from the CMO, and
welcomed the progress that’s been made. The committee agreed
to write again to the chief medical officer, specifically to be
asked to be kept informed about any further progress with regard to
the clinical consensus document that’s been developed by the
all-Wales neonatal network management group and the all-Wales
maternity network, and, in addition, to seek further information
about the timescales for the work that’s under way by the
maternity group and neonatal network to develop care pathways, both
for parents and babies, including the provision of palliative and
bereavement care and support.
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[32]
At its meeting of 17 September 2015, the Health and Social Care
Committee noted a further letter from the CMO, and I’ve also
been copied into a letter from the CMO to Darren Millar, the shadow
Minister for health, for which I’m grateful, and all of this
correspondence is in the public domain. At this time, crucially, we
haven’t heard from Emma Jones, who brought the petition to
us, and whose experiences motivated the bringing forward of this
petition. So, I think it’s fairly clear that we do need to
try to re-engage with her, but it’s obvious that she’s
triggered a really important discussion of this poignant and very
important matter. I wonder if colleagues have got any thoughts that
they’d like to add at this moment.
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[33]
Bethan Jenkins:
Dim ond ynglŷn â’r
llythyr gan Ruth Hussey, yn dweud ei bod hi’n hapus i ni
rannu’r ddogfen rydym yn trafod gyda hi, ond, byddwn
i’n dweud, a oes modd inni ofyn a yw hi’n gallu
cael—. A ydy hynny jest i roi’r ddogfen iddi hi, neu a
ydy hi’n gallu cael barn ar y ddogfen a rhoi syniadau gerbron
ar y ddogfen? Rwy’n gweld bod e’n rhywbeth positif, ond
efallai nad yw e’n werth ei wneud os nad yw hi’n gallu
cael barn ar yr hyn sydd yn y ddogfen. Jest i gadarnhau;
rwy’n gwybod bod hyn yn ‘semantics’,
ond mae’n bwysig i mi ei bod
hi’n teimlo ei bod hi’n rhan o’r broses. Felly,
os bydden ni’n gallu sgwennu’n ôl at Dr Ruth
Hussey yn gofyn a oes posibiliad wedyn iddi hi gael barn yn y
broses—.
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Bethan Jenkins: Only on the letter from
Ruth Hussey, which says that she’s happy to share the
document that we’re discussing with her, but, I would say,
can we ask whether she can have—. Is that just to give her
the document, or can she give her opinion on the document and put
some ideas forward? I think it is a positive thing, but perhaps
it’s not worth doing unless she can give her opinion on
what’s in the document. Just to confirm; I know this is
semantics, but it’s important to me that she feels that she
is part of this process. So, if we could write back to Dr Ruth
Hussey asking whether there’s a possibility that she could
put her opinion forward in this process—.
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[34]
William Powell: I’m very happy to write in that vein,
if colleagues support, and I sense they probably do. Moving to
Russell George.
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[35]
Russell George: Chair, I support that; that’s a good
action. I also think that this is a petition that’s
potentially drawing to an end, in a positive way, because
it’s actually achieved what it should achieve. I think that
this is a particularly important petition for our committee, and
I’m pleased to see that it looks like it’s,
potentially, coming to a resolution, in a positive sense.
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[36]
William Powell: Absolutely. And I think, when we do reach
that point, it’s clear that we need to write in the warmest
and strongest terms to the petitioner, with our thanks for raising
it. But, I think we’ve got a couple more steps, probably,
before that occurs. But I concur with your points.
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[37]
Russell George: I agree that we’re not there yet, but
it’s going that way, I think.
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[38]
Joyce Watson: Agreed.
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[39]
William Powell: Excellent. Good.
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[40]
Agenda item 3.6 is P-04-630, ‘Facebook Regulations for Looked
after Children’. This petition was submitted by Christine
Williams, and was first considered on 12 May 2015, with the support
of 11 signatures. You’ll recall the lady’s concerns
regarding the vulnerability of young people to the vagaries of
social media, and the dangers associated. We last considered this
petition on 22 September, and agreed to seek the outstanding
responses, both from Children in Wales and the Children’s
Commissioner for Wales, and we’ve got responses from both.
Colleagues will have noted the contents of both the
children’s commissioner’s letter, in detail, as indeed
also the response from Children in Wales. We’ve also got a
further response from the petitioner and her comments are also in
the public papers.
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[41]
I think we’re getting close, really, to the conclusion of our
consideration of this petition. I don’t know whether
colleagues are of a like mind, in that respect. It’s led to
the airing of some very important issues. But I think, probably, we
are fairly close to drawing things to a conclusion. Joyce
Watson.
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[42]
Joyce Watson: Yes, it’s hugely important. It’s
important for all children—Facebook, and other forms of
correspondence—and we don’t underestimate that in any
way at all. The correspondence has also made it clear that those
organisations charged with the care of children don’t take
this issue lightly. But, I don’t feel—and I welcome the
fact that we’ve had this debate around what is a critical
issue—that we can go any further with this, myself, not at
this moment. So, I would thank the petitioner for bringing the
issue to our attention, but I would propose closing it.
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[43]
William Powell: That sort of ties in with my own views
there, really. I think, in writing to the petitioner to mark the
closure of the petition, we should thank her very much for bringing
this important issue forward. But, also, I would suggest that we
ensure that the Minister is made aware of the most recent
correspondence, so that account can be taken of it in the upcoming
period, and so that it can be built into any relevant policy
formulation.
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[44]
Joyce Watson: Agreed.
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[45]
William Powell: Good.
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[46]
Moving now to agenda item 3.7—
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[47]
Joyce Watson: Do we have consensus on 3.6?
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[48]
William Powell: Yes, I think we have a consensus on that. I
sense that from people’s nodding in support.
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[49]
And before we proceed any further, I would like to extend a warm
welcome: Einen schönen guten Morgen an unsere
Delegation aus Baden Württemberg—a very warm
welcome to the petitions committee of the State Parliament of Baden
Württemberg. We look forward to engaging with our colleagues
from Germany later on, and I hope that they find our deliberations
interesting, as we continue.
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[50]
So, agenda item 3.7 is P-04-540, ‘Stop Sexism In Domestic
Abuse’. This petition was submitted by Healing Men, and was
first considered by us on 11 March 2014, having collected 238
signatures. We recall that we last considered this petition on 24
February, and were minded at that stage to close the petition, but
an agreement emerged at the eleventh hour to seek further views
from the Minister on the petitioners’ most recent comments,
and also to await the Minister’s response before considering
how to proceed further. We have now received comment from the
Minister, and his letter is available to us in the public papers.
It would appear that his response was delayed due to an
administrative oversight, and we are grateful now for having
received that. We haven’t, at this time, received further
correspondence from Mr Stott, the lead petitioner, and I
don’t believe we’ve had anything in the last couple of
days. So, we are in a situation where we’re awaiting further
feedback on that ministerial comment from the lead petitioner.
Joyce Watson.
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[51]
Joyce Watson: Thank you, Chair. I think, again, the petition
has raised issues that have been aired, but the Minister is
resolute in the answer that we’ve received and made it
absolutely clear that the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse
and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 does indeed apply to all
victims of gender-based violence, and that it’s headed up
because the majority of victims are female. Those are the facts.
There is no movement on that whatsoever, and I can see little point
in keeping this petition open, because we’re getting to a
stage, I feel, where the only option we have is to close it. Of
course, you know, we send the correspondence on to the petitioner,
as we did in the previous one. But, you know, when we’ve done
everything we can do, it’s time to close.
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[52]
William Powell: I understand that perspective, Joyce, and I
have some sympathy with it. I’m just concerned about the
theme of consistency of treatment, which you are usually a keen
advocate of. So, I would just like to explore this a little
further. Russell George.
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[53]
Russell George: I think, Chair, given the fact that there
was that delay from the Minister’s office, albeit that there
was some technical issue for that, to be fair to the petitioner, if
he’s had to wait so long to get the Minister’s reply
via us, then we should give him a little bit more time—if
we’ve only written to him in the last couple of
weeks—to reply. So, let’s just wait four more weeks,
and if we haven’t had a reply, then of course, I think we can
close it. But, I think we do need to make sure that we give him
time, to be consistent.
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[54]
William Powell: I’m grateful for that, and it looks as
though a critical commentator is about to speak. Bethan
Jenkins.
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[55]
Bethan Jenkins: Wel,
rwy’n credu ein bod ni wedi—. Rwy’n cytuno na
allwn fynd ymhellach gyda hwn, ond rwy’n cytuno, efallai jest
er mwyn bod yn deg, y dylem aros am y sylwadau yn ôl, gan fod
y Gweinidog wedi dweud bod yna broblem wedi bod gyda’r
cyfathrebu. Ond, rwy’n credu y dylai’r deisebwr fod yn
ymwybodol na fyddwn yn gallu cymryd y mater yma ymlaen yn awr,
oherwydd bod y Bil wedi mynd drwy’r broses honno. Felly, mae
hyn jest i fod yn deg, buaswn i’n dweud.
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Bethan Jenkins: Well, I do think that
we have—. I agree that we can’t go any further with
this, but, just in order to be fair, I think it would be right for
us to wait for the comments, as the Minister says that there has
been a problem in communication. But, I think the petitioner should
be aware that we won’t be able to take this matter any
further now because the Bill has gone through the process. So,
it’s just to be fair, really, you know?
|
|
[56]
William Powell:
Chwarae teg.
|
William Powell: Fair play.
|
|
[57]
I think you’re absolutely right in that respect. I think
Joyce’s comments are certainly valid, that we have come very
close to the end of the road here, but, for the sake of
consistency, let’s hear from Mr Stott, if he’s got
comments to make. And then we must, I think by common consent, move
to close, but we’ll await those comments first from Mr Stott,
as lead petitioner. Good.
|
|
[58]
Agenda item 3.8 is P-04-631, ‘Save our service—Large
Animal Rescue in North Wales’. This petition was submitted by
Sabina Dunkling and collected 1,394 signatures. We recall the
petitioner’s concerns regarding the large animal rescue
service, and specifically the fact that we have disparity in terms
of service in this respect in different parts of Wales. The
committee considered the petition for the first time on 12 May and
agreed to write, seeking views on the petition, to the following:
the North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority and to the Royal Society
for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals; and also to the Fire
Brigades Union, seeking information on the situation in south
Wales, and mid and west Wales. A response has been received from
the RSPCA, which is in the public papers. At this stage,
we’ve not received a response from the FBU, but the
RSPCA’s response does indicate that the fire services in
south Wales and mid and west Wales continue to offer rescue
services in respect of large animals. The petitioner hadn’t
written to us at the time the papers were being finalised, and I
think that remains the case.
|
|
09:30
|
|
[59]
I think really we probably do need to await comments from the
petitioner, but we could also chase up correspondence from the
North Wales Fire and Rescue Service in particular, to get directly
from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, what the situation is.
That was a very unfortunate choice of words. [Laughter.]
|
|
[60]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwyf jest eisiau dweud fy mod yn
meddwl ei fod yn wael nad yw Gwasanaeth Tân ac Achub Gogledd
Cymru wedi ymateb. Mae cryn sbel wedi bod. Fy nghynnig oedd
ysgrifennu at yr awdurdod tân yn y gogledd hefyd, os nad ydym
wedi gwneud. Mae’r ‘fire authority’ yn cael ei
wneud lan gan gynghorwyr. Fe allem ofyn iddyn nhw edrych yn
strategol ar benderfyniad de Cymru a chanolbarth Cymru i beidio
â chael gwared ar yr help maen nhw’n ei roi i
anifeiliaid mawr, a gweld os ydynt yn gallu cydweithio mewn rhyw
ffordd neu a oes ffordd y gallent gomisiynu allan y gwasanaeth
hwnnw, ac edrych ar ffyrdd newydd o weithredu yng nghyd-destun y
ffaith nad yw’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n anodd inni
drafod yn bellach heb ein bod yn gwybod yn iawn pam fod y
penderfyniad hwnnw wedi cael ei wneud. Rwy’n credu bod angen
inni siaso hynny hefyd, yn ogystal â siarad â’r
awdurdod. Nid wyf yn gwybod os yw’r clerc yn edrych
yn—.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to say
that I think it is bad that the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service
hasn’t responded, because quite a lot of time has passed. My
proposal was to write to the fire authority in north Wales also, if
we have not done so. The fire authority is made up of councillors.
We could ask them to look strategically at the decision made by
south Wales and mid Wales not to get rid of the assistance they
provide to large animals, and to see whether they can co-operate in
any way or could they commission out the service in any way, and
perhaps look at new ways of operating in the context of the fact
that it is not happening at the moment. It’s difficult for us
to discuss further without knowing why that decision was made. I
think we need to chase that as well, as well as talking to the
authority. I’m not sure whether the clerk is—.
|
|
[61]
Mr George: Nid wyf jest yn siŵr a ydym wedi ysgrifennu
at yr awdurdod neu’r gwasanaeth. Nid wyf yn cofio. Os nad
ydym ni wedi ysgrifennu at yr awdurdod, fe wnawn ni wneud
hynny.
|
Mr
George: I’m just not sure whether we have written
to the authority or the service. I can’t quite remember. If
we haven’t written to the authority, we can certainly do
that.
|
|
[62]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Okay.
|
|
[63]
William Powell: Okay, that’s helpful. I think it would
be sensible to do as Bethan has requested in terms of seeking that
clarity from the authority. But, since we’ve not had a
response from the FBU, maybe it would also be sensible to write to
the respective authorities in both south Wales and mid and west
Wales to get chapter and verse on their approach. Then we can
perhaps drill down to understanding better what the level of
service is that’s available across Wales, if colleagues are
happy with that.
|
|
[64]
Bethan Jenkins: Yes, fine.
|
|
[65]
William Powell: Okay. Agenda item 3.9 is P-04-511,
‘Support for children and young people participation
standards’. This petition was submitted by Powys Youth Forum
and was first considered on 11 November 2013 and had the support of
39 signatures. We recall the aspirations of the Powys Youth Forum
at that time. We last considered the petition on 30 June and agreed
to write to Children in Wales, asking them to respond to the
petitioner’s specific concerns, especially around the matter
of where meetings are located. Response has been received from the
chief executive of Children in Wales. We’ve also got a
response from the petitioners. Both pieces of correspondence are
amongst our public papers today. I think probably we need to be in
contact with the Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty on
this one, to seek a response to the points made in the letter from
Children in Wales. I don’t know whether colleagues have got
any other thoughts as to the best way forward on this one. Joyce
Watson.
|
|
[66]
Joyce Watson: Again, a good petition in bringing forward
issues, and we’ve had some fairly comprehensive answers. So,
I think that what you’re suggesting is the way forward and
we’ll wait and see what the results of that are.
|
|
[67]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yr unig beth fyddwn i’n dweud
yw bod lot o’r pwyntiau yn y llythyr gan y deisebwyr, gan
fforwm Powys, yn cyfeirio at beth mae Children in Wales yn dweud. A
oes proses lle gallwn ofyn i Children in Wales ymateb i’r hyn
y mae Fforwm Ieuenctid Powys yn dweud? Mae’r rhan fwyaf
o’u sylwadau nhw yn ymwneud â sut mae Children in Wales
yn gweithio. Ond, nid wyf yn siŵr os yw hynny’n bosibl
achos nid at Children in Wales mae’r ddeiseb. Ond, nhw sydd
yn rheoli beth sy’n digwydd gyda’r safonau.
|
Bethan Jenkins: The only thing I would
say is that a lot of the points made in the letter by the
petitioners, by the Powys Youth Forum, refer to what Children in
Wales is saying. Is there a process whereby we can ask Children in
Wales to respond to what Powys Youth Forum is saying, because the
majority of the comments relate to how Children in Wales operate?
But, I’m not sure whether that is possible for us because the
petition isn’t directed towards Children in Wales. But, they
manage what happens with regard to the standards.
|
|
[68]
William Powell: I think it’s not only possible, but
probably appropriate for us to go back to Children in Wales, since
they’ve been name checked and very specific points have been
made relating to how they operate, I think it’s only fair
that we should do that, and it will also take things to another
level. So, I’m happy to do that if colleagues are content.
Okay.
|
|
[69]
We now move to agenda item 3.10, P-04-399. We’ve previously
agreed to consider this in a grouped fashion along with petition
P-04-433. The first of those is 3.10, which is petition P-04-399,
‘Slaughter Practices’. Now, this petition was submitted
by Royce Clifford and was first considered on 19 June 2012, having
collected 400 signatures, calling upon the National Assembly for
Wales,
|
|
[70]
‘to urge the Welsh Government to ban the practise of
slaughtering animals without pre-stunning them.’
|
|
[71]
We’ve also got the long-standing petition in item 3.11,
petition P-04-433, ‘CCTV in Slaughterhouses’. Now, this
petition was submitted by Kate Fowler and was first considered on 6
November 2012 and has the support of 1,066 signatures, calling for
the Welsh Government to introduce mandatory CCTV in slaughterhouses
for the benefit of vets, but also for use in training and also to
deter practices that have been identified by the campaigning
organisation Animal Aid in their campaign work.
|
|
[72]
We considered these petitions last on 14 July of this year, and we
agreed to write to ask the Deputy Minister to notify committee once
she’d reviewed the content of the Farm Animal Welfare
Committee opinion, and also to await the petitioners’ views
on the Minister’s response. Now, as colleagues will recall,
the Minister made a written statement on closed-circuit television
in slaughterhouses on 8 October. In this, she outlined that, and I
quote,
|
|
[73]
‘The FAWC report strongly recommends that all Food Business
Operators should install CCTV in all areas where live animals are
kept and where animals are stunned and killed.’
|
|
[74]
The Minister also made clear her own view; and again, I quote:
|
|
[75]
‘My firm belief is that every slaughterhouse in Wales should
have CCTV installed in line with the FAWC recommendations. I am
determined to make this happen.’
|
|
[76]
So, we’ve got a fairly emphatic view there from the Minister,
drawn from her written statement of 8 October. Responses have been
received from both petitioners, and the response from Animal Aid in
particular indicates that they are greatly encouraged by the Deputy
Minister’s clear commitment. I think it would be sensible to
draw to the attention of the Deputy Minister the response received
from Animal Aid—colleagues may recall that, in a previous
life, the Deputy Minister was actively involved in promoting this
petition at the time, so it’s perhaps not surprising that
there’s that unanimity on this issue—and maybe also to
ask for her comments on how these proposals can be taken forward in
terms of how CCTV footage may be assessed and monitored. Are
colleagues happy with that, and are there any other thoughts as to
how best to proceed?
|
|
[77]
Bethan Jenkins: That’s fine.
|
|
[78]
William Powell: Excellent. Okay. I think that would be a
sensible way forward in that case.
|
|
[79]
Since we’re slightly ahead of ourselves in terms of the
agenda, and I understand that we need to make arrangements for the
evidence session, I propose that we take a short period of recess
and resume as soon as our petitioner is available for scrutiny.
Thank you very much, colleagues.
|
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:38 a
09:59.
The meeting adjourned between 09:38 and 09:59.
|
|
Sesiwn
Dystiolaeth—P-04-522 Asbestos mewn Ysgolion
Evidence Session—P-04-522 Asbestos in Schools
|
|
[80]
William Powell: Bore da a chroeso cynnes iawn i Cenric
Clement-Evans.
|
[81]
William Powell: Good morning and a very warm welcome to
Cenric Clement-Evans.
|
|
[82]
William Powell: We move, together, to agenda item 4, our
evidence session on petition P-04-522, ‘Asbestos in
Schools’, and a review of petitions, which we’ll also
come to later on. My colleagues will recall that this petition was
submitted by Cenric Clement-Evans and was first considered on 10
December 2013, and has the support of 448 signatures. Cenric, if I
could ask you to introduce yourself for the levels and also, maybe,
to make a brief opening statement, if you wish.
|
|
[83]
Mr Clement-Evans:
Yn gyntaf, a gaf i ddweud cwpl o
eiriau yn Gymraeg? Rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn i’r pwyllgor
am yr amser rydych chi wedi’i roi i’r ddeiseb ac am
ystyried hyn dros fisoedd. Roeddwn am ddweud cwpl o eiriau yn Gymraeg i ddechrau; byddaf
i’n troi at y Saesneg. Rwy’n un o Lerpwl, fel y mae
rhai ohonoch yn gwybod, felly heb gael addysg drwy gyfrwng Cymraeg,
ond mae addysg yn bwysig iawn i mi.
|
Mr Clement-Evans: First of all, can I
say a couple of words in Welsh? I’m very grateful to the
committee for the time you have put aside to look at this petition,
and for considering it over a number of months. I wanted to say a
couple of words in Welsh to start with; I will, then, switch to
English. I’m from Liverpool, as you may know, so I
haven’t had Welsh-medium education, but education is very
important to me.
|
|
10:00
|
|
[84]
So, I’d just like to say thank you very much again for
hearing the petition and considering it over what are now very,
very many months.
|
|
[85]
To introduce myself, I am a lawyer, a personal injury lawyer, and
I’ve specialised throughout my career in workplace injuries,
including industrial disease. What drew my attention to this in the
first place was acting for a lady diagnosed with mesothelioma who
was a school cleaner. She was a lady with limited educational
ability and in fact had gone to a school that was a special needs
school. The only place that she could have been exposed, or mainly,
would have been in the schools where she had either gone as a pupil
or then worked later on. I got to hear about the work that Michael
Lees did, who was campaigning in the UK on the issue of asbestos in
schools. Michael had lost his wife to mesothelioma some 15 years
ago. This was about the time I joined my present law firm, NewLaw
Solicitors, when the all-party parliamentary group in Westminster
produced a booklet on asbestos in schools, and reading it, it
became clear to me that actually it was very English-centric, which
is not a criticism of the booklet, but that’s as these things
are. So my journey then started with me writing to my Assembly
Member to ask, arising from what was said in the booklet—that
75 per cent of our schools in Britain contained asbestos—my
question, which my Assembly Member put to the Minister, and which
was: ‘How many schools in Wales contain asbestos?’ The
answer then came back that, effectively, this isn’t a matter
for Welsh Government, which, as someone who campaigns on behalf of
injured people, sort of spurred me on a little bit, because I see
that this is an area where, actually, unusually for what I do, I
can help shape the future and prevent people being exposed to
asbestos needlessly in the generations to come.
|
|
[86]
So, that’s effectively, Chair, why I’ve ended up here,
and from that and from discussions, the ‘Right to Know’
petition was born. As you’re aware, it was a call, really,
for accessible information for guardians and parents of
schoolchildren, but also others who work in schools—with easy
access and central access. As a lawyer dealing with industrial
disease, I’m all too familiar with documents disappearing
over the years. That’s what’s happened, and indeed one
benefit, if we had a central database in Wales, as we look at
changes with regard to local authorities, and reductions, and
possibilities of the ebb and flow of schools, with closures and
openings, is that that documentation and information could be
retained, which would help people in the future should they sadly
find themselves faced with a diagnosis of mesothelioma.
Mesothelioma is a cancer, usually of the lining of the lung, but
also of the abdomen as well, and it is almost always caused by
exposure to asbestos, and in comparative terms, lower dosages of
asbestos compared to other asbestos diseases. So, the petition
asked for the questions to be asked: ‘Is there asbestos in
the school?’ and ‘Is it being managed in accordance
with the control of asbestos regulations?’ And it also asked
for access to that information online.
|
|
[87]
As the petition was being considered, I then became involved in the
Asbestos in Schools group in the UK, and I also became an observer
member of the Joint Union Asbestos Committee. That has given me
access to more and more information. I don’t pretend to be an
expert, as such, but I have gained considerable knowledge.
|
|
[88]
But, in addition to being a lawyer—and some used the term
‘campaigning lawyer’—I am also a father. I am
chair of a parent and teachers association of a Welsh-medium high
school in Cardiff. I am also a chair of a junior football club and
I’m also a husband. So, my kids are going through school and
my wife works on supply as a teaching assistant, which takes her
through many different schools in the Cardiff area, as it happens.
So, I look at it from different angles as well.
|
|
[89]
The issue, with regard to what is being asked for in the petition,
is that there is this lack of agreement between the UK Government
and Welsh Government as to who is responsible for policy with
regard to asbestos in schools. I can evidence that with responses
that have been given in both places—in Westminster and,
indeed, here in Wales. During the course of this journey, as you
know, Chair, I have called for a steering group, similar to that
set up by the Department for Education in England, to be set up in
Wales. I’m more concerned, always, about going forward and
what happens in the future. I do have, and I’ll be able to
give the committee a copy of this, a reply from the chair of the
Asbestos in Schools steering group, which I received only
yesterday, which is why the committee hasn’t seen it.
|
|
[90]
For me, Chair, ultimately, I don’t care who is responsible
for the issue of asbestos in schools in Wales, as long as someone
takes responsibility. The position at the present time is that the
Department for Education say, in short, that it is a matter for
Welsh Government. Welsh Government say that it’s not a matter
for us because it’s a matter of health and safety. Somewhere
in between, into a devolutionary crack, schools in Wales are
falling.
|
|
[91]
I would urge Welsh Government, if their position is correct, that,
actually, what they ought to be saying to UK Government, by
whatever means, which are well beyond my knowledge, is, ‘You
need to do something about it’, and I don’t see that.
So, that’s by way of an introduction, and I will try and help
the committee as much as I can, but I do have the e-mail, which I
can read. I put questions, which were late to the committee on 22
September, to the chair of the steering group and he’s come
back to me, as I say, yesterday.
|
|
[92]
William Powell: Excellent. Mr Clement-Evans, thank you very
much for joining us this morning and for those opening remarks.
You’ve always been an assiduous petitioner in attending our
sessions and monitoring the progress of the petition that
you’ve brought.
|
|
[93]
Before I go any further, I should declare something of an interest:
I’m a member of Powys County Council and, in the context of
that, I’m an LEA governor both of a secondary school and my
local primary school, and I have had some engagement with issues
around asbestos, asbestos management and the disclosure of the
presence of asbestos in that context. So, I should make that clear
just now. Also, I’d like to kick off with a first line of
questioning, which is: what level of demand is there currently, in
your experience, from parents to have more information as to the
presence of asbestos in schools, and what is the evidence for
that?
|
|
[94]
Mr Clement-Evans: That is a very good question. I
don’t have an answer to that, because, as far as I’m
aware, no-one’s asked that question. But, of course, if you
are unaware of the presence of asbestos, then you’re not
going to ask about its presence. Indeed, there are certainly
surveys carried out by the National Union of Teachers, asking about
teacher awareness. You’d expect those who respond to an NUT
survey to be fairly active people within that union. The level of
awareness, again, is comparatively low. So, I don’t answer
the question, but one of the things that I have been doing is
raising awareness and the media has supported that. But, on almost
a daily basis, Chair, I tweet for the Joint Union Asbestos
Committee. I’m the main person doing that. There is, almost
on a daily basis, some story in the news in the UK with regard to
asbestos in schools. You may be aware that there was an issue,
leading, I think, to the closure of classrooms in schools in Stoke,
either yesterday or the day before yesterday, and one sees
parents’ reactions in the media reporting of these
stories.
|
|
[95]
William Powell: Yes, absolutely. At my own party’s
federal conference, I had some engagement with NUT on this very
issue, and I know it was a matter of great concern to them and,
indeed, to my former union, the Association of Teacher and
Lecturers, when I was active in the profession. One more question
from me before I open it up to colleagues, and that is: in what way
would you like to see the Welsh Government making information
available to parents on the levels of asbestos in schools in
Wales?
|
|
[96]
Mr Clement-Evans: Well, I think the first thing, going
forward, is to have it available online. Now, I know there are
issues about accessing things online, as we saw reported in the
media only yesterday, with the lack of knowledge in Wales with
regard to the ability to use digital services. Nevertheless,
that’s what one would be looking for, so that you have the
information there and easily accessible. That would, no doubt,
help, for instance, the emergency services, and there’s a
duty upon stakeholders to have information under the control of
asbestos regulations available for the emergency services so that,
when they go to, for instance, in particular you think in terms of
fires, it’s very, very easily available for them. That would
be an offshoot of this, but, yes, online in due course.
|
|
[97]
William Powell: That’s helpful. Russell George.
|
|
[98]
Russell George: Thank you, Chair. I just wondered how you
would suggest this obstacle might be overcome. Some people might
think that it might cause undue concern amongst parents, if a
letter comes home saying that there’s asbestos in the school.
People perhaps don’t understand all the circumstances, and
just the headline itself could cause undue concern. So, how would
you suggest that that’s overcome?
|
|
[99]
Mr Clement-Evans: That’s a very, very difficult one,
because I always get—well, I don’t always get it, but I
have had the question as to whether I’m scaremongering.
I’m very, very careful to avoid overstating the risk of
mesothelioma. You don’t want everybody running scared.
Mesothelioma is a really horrible, painful way to die, and
that’s not something that one would overstate in the
campaign.
|
|
10:15
|
|
[100]
You talk about asbestos and its risks. I mean, it’s a very
difficult one, isn’t it? I mean, for years, I guess, society
has grappled with tobacco and the effects, and, increasingly, the
message has been ramped up as to the effects of it. So, I
don’t think there’s an easy answer. It is easy, I know,
for people to levy at me the charge of, ‘Well, you’re a
lawyer, and you’re overstating these things for your own
benefit’. And I hope that people look at the media work that
I have done over the last couple of years, look at the papers that
you have seen presented by me, and see that I don’t overstate
it. We’ll always have the media, potentially, overstating it,
for their own purposes, but I’m very careful of that.
|
|
[101]
Russell George: From what I can see, and from what
you’re saying, it is that parents should have the choice, and
have the information presented to them.
|
|
[102]
Mr Clement-Evans: Yes.
|
|
[103]
Russell George: I understand that.
|
|
[104]
Mr Clement-Evans: One of the difficulties as well, in terms
of, ultimately, if someone’s in a situation where they are
faced with this diagnosis and seeking compensation, you are looking
at, very often, an exposure that took place 30, 40, even 50 years
ago, and there is actually no awareness of the exposure at all. So,
forensically—I’m not sure whether that’s
answering the point—but, forensically, it’s quite
painstaking trying to just tease out of someone how they might have
been exposed, at a point in time where you have to be incredibly
sensitive. You’re going in and you’re speaking to
people, with their families, at a really awful time. At the same
time, you are having to act quickly to try and get information, to
take it to other places to get information.
|
|
[105]
I’ve probably gone off the point a little bit, but it’s
about having that awareness. I mean, I discovered, to my surprise,
last summer—because I was asked to do an interview on
it—that, as a student in Aberystwyth, I spent three years in
Pantycelyn, and they were asking me questions about that, because,
apparently, there was asbestos to be found in those halls. Well, of
course, I was blissfully unaware of that. I got up to all sorts of
things, which, I, clearly, wasn’t prepared to discuss on the
radio, as a student. You know, I was asked whether I’d taken
a drill around, and, I have to say, I could deny that one, but, you
know. [Laughter.]
|
|
[106]
Russell George: Thank you.
|
|
[107]
William Powell: Thank you. Joyce Watson.
|
|
[108]
Joyce Watson: You’ve talked about the steering group
and the fact that you’ve been engaging with it. And
I’ve read your papers, and you suggest that we ought to have
such a steering group in Wales, if I remember it rightly. But the
Minister says that that would only duplicate the efforts that are
currently happening. Now, what is your view on that?
|
|
[109]
Mr Clement-Evans: My view—well, is this a potent
moment to read from the e-mail that I’ve received, and then I
can pass it to you, and I can also—
|
|
[110]
William Powell: That would be timely. Please do so; we have
time.
|
|
[111]
Mr Clement-Evans: Just to clarify this first of all,
I’d asked him the following questions:
|
|
[112]
‘Can you confirm for avoidance of doubt that the work of the
Steering Group is ongoing?’,
|
|
[113]
because there was a suggestion from the Minister that it
wasn’t, and so I wanted just to be clear. Then I said,
|
|
[114]
‘Have there been representations been to the Steering
Group’—
|
|
[115]
—apologies for my English—
|
|
[116]
‘on behalf of schools in Wales (other than of course
reference to issues arising from Cwmcarn High School)’,
|
|
[117]
which I knew had been referred. And I’ve never sat on it, and
I never attended, by the way.
|
|
[118]
‘Does the remit of the Department for Education Asbestos in
Schools Steering Group include schools throughout the UK or is it
limited to schools in England only?
|
|
[119]
‘If the remit of the group is limited to schools in England,
could that be broadened to include schools in Wales?
|
|
[120]
‘If so what would be required to
enable this to happen, including presumably specific input from
those with specific knowledge of the education system in
Wales.’
|
|
[121]
Now, I hope you agree that those were open questions and careful
questions. As is acknowledged in my e-mail, I had met him very
briefly at what was the retirement of Michael Lees, and he just
basically said to me, ‘Can you write to me?’, and
that’s what I did. So, his response was yesterday:
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[122]
‘I can confirm that the work of the Asbestos in Schools
Steering Group is ongoing.
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[123]
‘The Department for Education’s remit is for schools in
England. As such, the Asbestos in Schools Steering Group, which was
set up by the department in 2012, only covers the issue of asbestos
management in schools in England.
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[124]
‘The remit of the committee means it has not received
specific representations on behalf of schools in Wales, though as
you suggest references to schools in Wales will have been made in
the course of its discussions.
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[125]
‘Focussing on schools in England enables the group to
consider the specific issues faced by English schools, which exist
in a different policy framework to those in Wales. I would
therefore suggest it is right that the remit of the Steering Group
is to consider schools in England.
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[126]
‘Clearly, however, many of the issues that schools encounter
with regard to asbestos management in Wales will be similar as
those faced by schools in England. We are therefore happy to work
with the Welsh Government to share the findings of the group as
their work continues.’
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[127]
So, an introduction to my response would be this: I am not an
expert on the education system in Wales, but I am aware that there
are differences and, indeed, evolving differences, as devolution
continues to evolve generally. My main concern, certainly at this
time, is that the Department for Education steering group meets,
but has no representation from Wales. So, that would make me very,
very uncomfortable that there is no specific representation from
Wales. And, I, throughout my career, have gone around banging many
drums with regard to Wales. I’m on the executive committee of
the Association of Personal Injury Lawyers. They’re now aware
that Wales exists. Similarly, that’s why I speak at the Joint
Union Asbestos Committee; I put a Welsh perspective, the Asbestos
in Schools group the same, and I’ve given Welsh updates at
the all-party parliamentary group on occupational health as well.
And it’s that lack of representation that would really
concern me. Ideally, I would want the Minister to have the best
advice available from those in education in Wales, hence my
suggestion. And I’m picking up from some of the letters that
were sent by this committee in the summer of 2014 to Wales TUC, to
Governors Wales—I know that there was no response from the
Welsh Local Government Association, as far as I’m
aware—but also asbestos experts, so there is a Welsh angle.
If there was Welsh representation on what is, I guess, an unelected
body in itself, I suppose I’d be more comforted, but I think,
ultimately, if we believe in devolution, then the place to have the
steering group is in Wales.
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[128]
Joyce Watson: So, you feel very strongly that there should
be Welsh representation on that. So, that’s one thing.
Let’s assume we had that. What do you think would be the
advantage? Do you think that there are, for example, issues
specific to Wales that might not be considered by this steering
group?
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[129]
Mr Clement-Evans: I’m afraid I cannot answer that
question, but that almost is to roll back devolution into the
bottle, isn’t it, I think, as we remind ourselves,
celebrating—or not celebrating, but
remembering—Tryweryn where the people of Wales were
represented by Members of Parliament who voted against the drowning
of a village for water for my home city, as it happens. So, I
can’t answer that in any other way, I’m afraid. It just
seems self-evident that Welsh education is different. There are
bound to be differences.
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[130]
Joyce Watson: Okay. Finally from me, what do you think a
Wales-specific policy could look like? Have you, in terms of the
subject—and we’re talking here about asbestos in
schools—. Or have you not got that far?
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[131]
Mr Clement-Evans: I haven’t got that far because I am
a lone voice who has been trying to get the commitment for there to
be a policy with regard to Wales. Now, I have had a lot of support
from many groups. If you look at the Right to Know website you will
see logos, certainly from many trade unions in Wales, and
significantly Wales Trades Union Congress, and also many charity
groups, and support from colleagues in England for the work that
I’m doing. So, I don’t think it would be for me to do
that. I think that there are more important people in Wales who
would be able to define that policy.
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[132]
Joyce Watson: Finally from me, the Minister has said
continually—and this is really the hub of it all, isn’t
it—that the HSE, the Health and Safety Executive, are
ultimately responsible in Wales. We’ve got a paper that tells
us how they look at the risk protection and all that underpins
that. I suppose what we’re trying to do here, because we will
move forward with this, is make some recommendations in that area.
So, are you concerned that the HSE are not taking this seriously,
or are you concerned that—? This is what we need to draw
out.
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[133]
Mr Clement-Evans: I understand that question. In simple
terms, there has been a complaint made, as I have said in papers
previously, to the parliamentary ombudsman with regard to the HSE
investigation into Cwmcarn. It is oft repeated that asbestos is
safe unless it is disturbed. Well, first of all, it may be trite
for me to say this but, unless you know where it is, you
don’t know if you are disturbing it. It’s a little more
complex than that that the experts would tell us. What I would
commend to you is the policy of Caerphilly County Borough Council,
who have put in place a process of removing asbestos from areas
where children can come into contact with the asbestos. One of the
things that was appalling to learn with regard to Cwmcarn was that
kids, not misbehaving, were able to scrape asbestos insulation
boards with their chairs and desks in their normal everyday
behaviour. Again, the evidence—. I am not an asbestos expert
but I am told that the asbestos fibres are released by the banging
of doors—I can take you to some information but it would
probably take too much time—and the closing of windows. I
have a 15 year old, which is a challenge to me, I have to say, as
he’s doing his GCSEs; he will often slam and bang his way
around the house, particularly if he’s challenged as to how
much work he’s doing at home. So, schools are unique places
in that they contain children. Most of us like to think that we
behave in a certain way as adults, but kids are kids—which
probably hasn’t quite answered the question. You’ve
asked about the HSE. There is a difference of opinion, but then I
guess you might say, well, there’s always a range of expert
opinions. But, certainly, Caerphilly borough council took the
action it did on the basis of two opinions, which were contrary to
that of the HSE, ultimately.
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10:30
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[134]
Bethan Jenkins: I think what we’re trying to get at,
as you know from having watched us, is that HSE will say that it
has power over regulation and the policy will be from Welsh
Government, but then Welsh Government are saying, ‘No,
it’s HSE’s responsibility’. So, I suppose what
we’re trying to ask is: what do you think would be a way
forward for us to try and ensure that a body of government takes
responsibility for this action? Because how it reads to me now is
that the Minister is waiting for the UK Government’s
reporting and committee steering group to progress and to
potentially emulate or to adapt what they are doing. Is that how
you see it? Do you know if the Minister has given any evidence to
the English committee steering group, so that we can at least then
be assured that he is putting some input into the whole process?
For me, I agree with you, if it’s not going to include Welsh
voices, if Wales are not going to be around the table, then how are
we to say that those policies will be able to be adapted for Wales
if we’ve had no representation on it?
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[135]
Mr Clement-Evans: I would very much doubt that the
Minister—. The steering group is a group of experts who meet
on a regular basis and inform, ultimately, the Department for
Education as to policy, and I think that’s its purpose. I
don’t think that the steering group has ever taken evidence,
but I could be wrong on that. What has happened with regard to
evidence is that the Education Select Committee heard
evidence—I believe that was in about April 2013—from
the then Minister for schools, if I have the title correct, David
Laws MP, at that time, it also heard from the HSE, and it also
heard from the epidemiologist, Julian Peto, it heard from Julie
Winn, on behalf of the Joint Union Asbestos Committee, and Michael
Lees, and there may, forgive me, have been another. So,
that’s the evidence that I’m aware that’s been
given.
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[136]
There have been statements, as I’ve said, in early 2014, to
questions asked by Lord Wigley in the House of Lords and also Hywel
Williams MP. What Baroness Randerson, as Parliamentary Under
Secretary of State for Wales at the Wales Office, said on 14
January 2014 was this:
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[137]
‘The Health and Safety Executive has responsibility for
regulations and guidance as it applies to the management and
control of asbestos in all workplaces in Great Britain, including
schools. However, within this framework, the development of
policies for the management and control of asbestos in schools is a
matter for the Welsh Government.’
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[138]
She then referred to the report by the Committee on
Carcinogenicity, which was commissioned, she said, by the
Department of Education:
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[139]
‘The report was a statement on the vulnerability of children
to asbestos and made no recommendations; however, in England, the
Department for Education is undertaking a review of its policy on
asbestos management in schools. It is for the Welsh Government to
decide whether they wish to review any policies as a result of the
report.’
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[140]
I’m not aware of any policy. No-one has come back and said
that there is one. But, forgive me, I have raised this issue and
pointed out that there appears to be this disconnect. I would be
astonished if the Minister was waiting for me to give him a way
forward. I would really hope that I’ve made this fairly clear
over a period of time. Whether it is resolved by there being
agreement—. It appears that this disconnect is because nobody
is actually talking to each other and saying, ‘This is the
position’. England is saying, ‘Wales, it’s up to
you’, and Wales is saying, ‘No, it’s nothing to
do with us’. They can carry on doing that forever and a day,
but that’s not going to get us anywhere. I don’t know
how to get people to talk. I have certainly spoken to politicians
from all parties, elected both in Wales and in England, but
I’m no further forward.
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[141]
Bethan Jenkins: I think that’s the key though,
isn’t it? I think that’s why you’re asking about
the steering group for Wales because, for me, we can’t wait
for England to progress their work without us having our own unique
take on what is happening here in Wales. It is frustrating, on
behalf of the committee and myself, that nobody will take
responsibility. So, I think, following on from today, I’d
like to see that we can try and get to the end of this
conversation—
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[142]
Mr Clement-Evans: Absolutely.
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[143]
Bethan Jenkins: —so that we can have—I would
support that call for a Welsh committee—so that we can move
this forward for the benefit of the people of Wales.
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[144]
Mr Clement-Evans: If I can respond as well. We’ve
taken, and I have taken, an awful lot of this committee’s
time in going around in a very large circle and giving you lots of
information, and I’m sure that you’re grateful for the
long papers that I send you, but actually it’s not dealing
with the core issue.
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[145]
If I had my computer open, I could—. Julian Peto, and
I’m probably going to paraphrase it slightly, and he hates
this—this was evidence he gave in the transcript—and
I’m not sure he likes it being used, but he says something to
the effect that it is what the children are breathing that matters;
everything else is hot air. I’m sure that every one of us in
this room agrees with this because that’s what we have to do
going forward. If, ultimately, Welsh Government take responsibility
for policy and are content with the guidance of the HSE, that is a
different debate; that is a different argument altogether, but
we’re not getting to that.
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[146]
William Powell: Joyce, one point from you and then we will
draw things to a conclusion.
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[147]
Joyce Watson: Only to say that it isn’t entirely true
to say that nobody’s taking responsibility for the issue.
But, moving on from that, it’s about clarity as to how
that’s moving forward. As I understand it, that is what
you’re calling for, so that we know how it’s moving
forward.
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[148]
We know that there is responsibility placed on the HSE. We know
that there is guidance that’s been issued from the Welsh
Government about asbestos management in schools. We know all those
things are happening. What we need to move forward, as I understand
it, is a clear path that satisfies both those organisations, that
is the Government, the elected organisation, and the HSE, and
that’s the way that I understand it. But I just wanted to say
that it isn’t entirely true to say that nobody is taking
responsibility for asbestos in schools. It might be a muddled
picture and it might need clarity according to the petition.
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[149]
William Powell:
Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod ac am y
sesiwn ddiddorol y bore yma.
|
William Powell: Thank you very much for
coming to the committee and for the interesting session this
morning.
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[150]
I think it’s been an extremely useful session and
you’ve brought some really solid evidence, particularly the
most recent e-mail exchange that you shared with us this morning,
Cenric, that we will be able to take forward when we’ve got a
confirmed date with the Minister for education to take this matter
forward. We’re also grateful to you for agreeing to
contribute your thoughts shortly regarding the wider petitions
process. I think it would be fair to say that you’ve not
entirely convinced us, despite your protestations, that
you’re not something of an expert in terms of the field of
asbestos, because if you’re not then I don’t quite know
who is.
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[151]
Mr Clement-Evans: I’m a lawyer. Can I take a moment
for a plug? This is relevant to the committee, in that there is a
cross-party group on asbestos this evening, after your Plenary
session. So, if any of you are available, you would be very
welcome. We have an agenda that I’m hoping is more than just
asbestos in schools, but actually relates to how we approach
asbestos for the future, including treatment and research issues,
and I’m hoping that we start something rolling. So, I
apologise for the plug, but as it’s relevant to the four of
you—in fact, I withdraw the apology. [Laughter.]
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[152]
William Powell: Thank you very much indeed. We’re
about to move to agenda item 5, which will involve my calling on
the motion under Standing Order 17.42. But, first of all, I would
assure you as lead petitioner on this that we will be considering
today’s evidence at a future meeting, and also that a
transcript will be provided for you of today’s session for
your records also.
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[153]
I would also wish to say, before we move to private session, that
today is the last meeting, before she goes on maternity leave, of
our colleague, Kayleigh Driscoll, who is briefly not in the room at
the moment, but will re-join us shortly. She’s been an
absolute rock in terms of the support as Deputy Clerk for the
petitions process in this place for the last several years, and we
wish her well for the time to come. I look forward to her
re-joining us very shortly, but I wanted that to be put on the
record, and I’m sure colleagues would agree with that.
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10:42
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Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i
Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting
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Cynnig:
|
Motion:
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bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o
weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42.
|
that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42.
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Cynigiwyd y
cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[154]
William Powell: And so now I would ask that we move the
motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public
from the remainder of this morning’s meeting. I see no
objection, so we’ll do that.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:43.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:43.
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