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Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance
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Russell George
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Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh
Conservatives
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Bethan Jenkins
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Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales
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William Powell
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Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Cadeirydd y
Pwyllgor)
Welsh Liberal Democrats (Committee
Chair)
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Joyce Watson
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Llafur
Labour
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Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn
bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials
in attendance
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Kayleigh Driscoll
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Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
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Steve George
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Clerc
Clerk
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Lisa Salkeld
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Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
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Kath Thomas
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Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
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Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:02.
The meeting began at 09:02.
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Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions
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[1]
William Powell: Bore da, bawb. Good morning, all, and
welcome to this meeting of the Petitions Committee. Normal
housekeeping arrangements apply. We have no apologies as yet, and I
hope that we’ll be joined by our colleague, Russell George,
shortly.
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09:03
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Deisebau Newydd
New Petitions
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[2]
William Powell: Moving now straight to agenda item
2—new petitions. In 2.1, we have petition P-04-650,
‘Scrap Local Government Councillors’ Salaries’.
Now, this petition was submitted by Geraint Williams, and has the
support of 82 signatures. The text of the petition reads as
follows:
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|
[3]
‘We call on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh
Government to scrap Councillors’ salaries. With cuts to
public services and increases in council tax it is right that
councillors share the burden by having their salaries scrapped and
replaced with payments of reimbursement only, much like
magistrates. This will help to make savings in expensive local
democracy.’
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[4]
There’s some additional material that the petitioner has
kindly supplied. In the first place, I should declare that I am a
member of a local authority and, as such, have an interest in this
matter. That’s for the record. Now, a first-consideration
letter in relation to this petition was sent to the Minister for
Public Services on 12 August and, indeed, we have a response from
the Minister, and that’s in the public papers. The petitioner
has been informed of the Minister’s response but had not
responded at the time that the papers were being finalised. I think
that that’s still the case. So, in that context, what would
colleagues suggest as the best way forward? Joyce Watson.
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[5]
Joyce Watson: Chair, first of all, I don’t have to
declare an interest, but I was a councillor for a very long time.
We have got the response here from the Minister. We usually wait
for the petitioner to respond, and we usually give a finite time
for that to happen. So, I suggest that that’s the way that we
take this forward.
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[6]
William Powell: I’m very happy to accept that
proposal. Bethan.
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[7]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n credu, efallai, fod y
Gweinidog wedi camddeall y llythyr cyntaf. Rwy’n credu ei fod
yn ymateb wrth ddeall na fyddai cynghorwyr yn cael unrhyw fath o
arian neu gyllideb i wneud eu gwaith, ond nid dyna yw sail y
ddeiseb. Felly, dylem ysgrifennu yn ôl at y Gweinidog,
rwy’n credu, i danlinellu’r ffaith y byddai ad-daliadau
i gynghorwyr ond mewn ffordd wahanol i gyflog, a gweld wedyn beth
mae’r Gweinidog yn ei feddwl. Yn fy marn i, dylai’r
ffocws, efallai, fod ar brif weithredwyr yn lle cynghorwyr, ond
dyna fy marn bersonol i.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I think, perhaps, that
the Minister has misunderstood the first letter. I think he’s
responded on the understanding that councillors would not have any
sort of remuneration or funding for doing their work, but
that’s not the basis of the petition. So, we need to write
back to the Minister, I think, to underline the fact that there
would be repayments to councillors, but in a different way to a
salary, and then see what the Minister thinks. In my opinion, the
focus should perhaps be on chief executives rather than
councillors, but that’s my own personal view.
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[8]
William Powell: Thank
you very much for that. I think there would be merit, certainly, in
waiting for the response from the petitioner, but given there is an
evident misunderstanding or misinterpretation on the part of the
Minister in his response, I think it would also make a lot of sense
to write just to clarify the terms of the original petition.
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[9]
Good morning, Russell. Just to confirm that we’re on agenda
item 2.1, relating to the scrapping of local government
councillors’ salaries.
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[10]
Russell George: Yes, thank you, Chair. I won’t make
any comment on it, just to say that I declare an interest as a
Powys county councillor.
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[11]
William Powell: Excellent. Okay. Thank you very much for
that. So, I think we’ve agreed a pair of actions to take that
forward and, potentially, in the life of this, we’ll also be
consulting the Welsh Local Government Association, but that can
wait, I think, until we’ve heard from the petitioner.
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[12]
Agenda item 2.2 is P-04-652, ‘Android and iOS, Welsh in the
21st Century?’. This petition was submitted by Merlyn Cooper
and collected 75 signatures. The text of the petition reads as
follows:
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|
[13]
‘We call on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh
Government to work with Google and Apple to develop a Welsh
language version of their operating systems.’
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[14]
We’ve got some additional material supplied also by the
petitioner relating to how much more the Welsh language is
represented in recent years in business, education and public
services, and he relates that to the desirability of having it more
available in this format. A first-consideration letter was sent to
the First Minister, given his overarching responsibility for Welsh
language, on 26 August, and we’ve got a response from the
First Minister in our public papers. I think, in some ways,
it’s quite an encouraging response. Colleagues, I’d
appreciate any views you might have on this one. Joyce Watson.
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[15]
Joyce Watson: Thank you, Chair. It is an encouraging
response, and I absolutely agree with the petition that people
should be able to express themselves in the language of their
choice and, in Wales, that very often is Welsh. It is encouraging
that the First Minister makes it abundantly clear that he’s
previously had dialogue with Amazon, when they opened their Kindle
store, and that he will continue to have dialogue
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|
[16]
‘to try to motivate Apple and Google to offer more for Welsh
speakers’.
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[17]
So, it’s encouraging, and it’s an interesting petition
in that regard.
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[18]
William Powell: I didn’t point out earlier that we
haven’t as yet heard from the petitioner in response to the
First Minister’s correspondence. So, I think, in accordance
with our normal practice, we should await those comments and then
hope to take this further forward.
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[19]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n credu ei bod yn galonogol
i weld y gwaith sydd wedi cael ei roi i mewn i hwn, ond y cwestiwn
sydd gen i yw: mae’r Llywodraeth wedi edrych ar ddarnau o
waith ar gyfer iOS ac wedi siarad ag Apple, ond, yng
nghyd-destun Android, mae’n dweud y byddai’n darn mawr
o waith. Byddwn i’n licio deall gan y Prif Weinidog a oes
modd iddo fe gomisiynu unrhyw waith ar hynny hefyd gan un o’r
prifysgolion neu gan gwmni bach yng Nghymru, a deall pam nad yw
hynny’n bosib, os yw e wedi edrych i mewn i hynny, neu a
yw’n bosib gwneud hynny hefyd. Dyna’r unig beth oedd yn
fy nharo i yn y llythyr, ond rwy’n hapus iawn gyda’r
datblygiadau.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I think it’s been very
encouraging to see the work that’s been put into this, but
the question that I have is: the Government has looked at pieces of
work on iOS and has worked with Apple, but, in relation to Android,
they say it would be a very big piece of work. I’d like to
understand from the First Minister whether there is a way for him
to commission any work on that also, maybe from one of the
universities or a small company in Wales, and to understand why
that isn’t possible, if he has already looked into that, or
whether it may be possible to do that also. That’s the only
thing that struck me from the letter, but I’m very pleased
with the developments.
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[20]
William Powell: Yes, I
think that’s an avenue that it would be very useful for us to
pursue, maybe awaiting the petitioner’s views in the first
instance and then taking that matter forward. Okay, so that
concludes the new petitions for this morning.
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09:09
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Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am
Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions
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[21]
William Powell: Moving now to agenda item 3, updates to
previous petitions, we start with agenda item 3.1, P-04-408,
‘Child and Adolescent Eating Disorder Service’. This
petition was submitted by Helen Missen and was first considered on
17 July 2012, having collected 246 signatures. You’ll recall
that this has been quite a long-standing petition, the text of
which we have in front of us. We considered the petition most
recently on 22 September, and we agreed to ask the clerking team to
explore any recent work that had been undertaken by the cross-party
group on eating disorders, chaired by Bethan Jenkins, and also to
come back, in her absence at the last meeting, to consider it at
this meeting. So, in that context it’s absolutely only fair
to ask you, Bethan, to comment on the stage where we find
ourselves.
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[22]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yn amlwg, byddai’n rhaid i mi
ddatgan diddordeb yn hynny o beth. Dros yr haf, rydym wedi gwneud
lot o waith ar hyn. Mae yna adolygiad o’r fframwaith
anhwylderau bwyta yn digwydd nawr, ac rydym ni wedi gwthio am ddau
ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus—un yng Nghaerdydd ac un yn Llandudno.
Mae hynny’n rhywbeth mae’r grŵp trawsbleidiol wedi
gallu ei wneud. Felly, byddwn yn annog Helen ac eraill i gymryd
rhan yn y broses honno i roi’r dadleuon yma. Ond, beth y
byddwn i’n ei gynnig nawr yw, oherwydd bod y ddeiseb wedi bod
ar agor am gyhyd a’n bod ni wedi cael cryn sylw gan y
Gweinidog ar hyn, i ni dynnu’r syniadau i gyd at ei gilydd
mewn i adroddiad i gael dadl yn y Senedd. Ac wedyn, gall Aelodau
eraill sydd â diddordeb gymryd rhan. Ac wedyn, fy mwriad i
fyddai i hynny gael ei ddanfon at adolygwyr y fframwaith hefyd
iddyn nhw allu gweld beth mae Aelodau Cynulliad eraill yn feddwl am
y peth, fel ei fod e’n strategol. Byddwn i’n dweud bod
angen i hynny ddigwydd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn os ydym ni am fwydo i
mewn i adolygiad y fframwaith. Ond, nid wyf yn credu y gallwn ni
nawr barhau a pharhau gyda’r ddeiseb achos, yn amlwg, rydym
ni wedi cael nifer fawr o lythyron rhwng y Gweinidog a ni,
sy’n bositif i’r pwnc, ond rwy’n credu nawr
mae’n amser i ddod â’r ddeiseb i ben. Rwy’n
gobeithio y bydd Helen yn iawn gyda hynny.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Clearly, I would have
to declare an interest. Over the summer, we’ve done a lot of
work on this. There is a review of the framework on eating
disorders being undertaken now, and we have pushed for two public
consultations—one in Cardiff and one in Llandudno. That is
something that the cross-party group has been able to do. So, I
would encourage Helen and others to take part in that process and
to put these arguments forward. But, what I would propose now is
that because the petition has been open for so long, and because
we’ve had quite a lot of attention from the Minister on this,
that we bring all the ideas together into a report so that we can
have a debate in the Senedd. And then, other Members who have an
interest can take part. And then, my intention would be for that to
be sent to the framework reviewers so that they could see what
other Assembly Members thought of this, so that it would be
strategic. I think this would need to happen before the end of the
year if we want to feed in to the framework review. But, I
don’t think that we can continue and continue with this
petition because, clearly, we’ve had a number of letters
between the Minister and ourselves, which are positive with regard
to the subject, but I think it’s now time to bring the
petition to a close. I hope that Helen will be okay with
that.
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[23]
William Powell: I think that’s an eminently sensible
proposal, particularly since any report and debate would tie in
with the other timescales. Any colleagues got any other
reflections? Joyce Watson.
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[24]
Joyce Watson: I think we have to move to some completion on
this. I see no problem in supporting what Bethan has suggested;
I’m quite happy to do that. And I think it would be useful,
because the timing is right to do it.
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[25]
William Powell: Excellent; I sense the building consensus
there. So, that’s exactly what we shall do.
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[26]
Agenda item 3.2, P-04-492, ‘Diagnosis of autism in
children’. This petition was submitted by the National
Autistic Society Pembrokeshire branch, and was first considered by
us on 18 June 2013. At that time, it had the support of 902
signatures. In front of us there’s the text of the petition
and a substantial amount of supporting material referencing the
difficulties experienced by parents of children on the autistic
spectrum in Pembrokeshire gaining a timely diagnosis. We last
considered this petition on 10 March 2015 and agreed to write in
the terms requested by the petitioners to the task and finish
group, to local health boards and to the Minister for Health and
Social Services, and also to write to the new chief executive of
Hywel Dda Local Health Board, Steve Moore, seeking reassurance on
latest trends and diagnosis for autism in Pembrokeshire, which at
that time appeared to have slipped again after initial improvement.
We’ve got, in our pack today, a letter from the Minister
outlining plans for the task and finish group, and also some useful
correspondence from the local health boards. We’ve also got a
response from the petitioner, which is also available in the public
papers, which acknowledges much of the progress that’s been
made. There is reference there, I picked up, to a request from the
former chief executive of Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health
Board with regard to a policy steer from Welsh Government in
relation to this topic. But, with the exception of that, I think we
have made quite significant progress here, as far as I pick up from
the other correspondence that we’ve received. What do
colleagues think?
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09:15
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[27]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n cytuno bod cryn
ddatblygiad wedi bod yn yr ardal yma. A, hefyd, fe wnes i gael
brîff gan Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Abertawe Bro
Morgannwg ar ddydd Gwener. Felly, mae’r arian newydd gan y
Llywodraeth yn mynd i fynd mewn i awtistiaeth yn benodol. Felly,
rwy’n credu y bydd hynny’n arwain at newid.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I agree that there has
been quite significant development in this area. And, also, I was
briefed by Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board on
Friday. So, the new money from the Government will be put into
autism specifically. So, I think that that will lead to a
change.
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[28]
Yn fy marn i, rwy’n meddwl
efallai y dylem ni aros tan ein bod ni’n gwybod bod yr
adroddiad oddi wrth y grŵp gorchwyl yn dod i
ben, i sicrhau ein bod ni’n gallu gwthio i gael hwnnw yn
gyhoeddus. Dyna fy ngreddf i, i’w gadw e ar agor nes bod
hynny yn digwydd—nid i drafod y ddeiseb, yn hynny o beth, ond
i’w chadw ar agor i aros am yr adroddiad i ddod nôl.
Dyna fy marn i.
|
In my opinion, I think perhaps we should wait
until we know that the report from the task and finish group has
been completed, to ensure that we can push to make that public.
That is my instinct, to keep it open until that happens—not
to discuss the petition, as such, but to keep it open, to wait for
the report to come back. That is my opinion.
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[29]
William Powell: Yes, I’m open to that view—or
could have gone the other way, really. Joyce, on this particular
point.
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[30]
Joyce Watson: I’m quite happy; let’s wait for
the report. There has been excellent progress, and that, to me,
proves the value of people bringing petitions, so that—
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[31]
William Powell: Absolutely, and they’ve been very
tenacious petitioners, all the way, through always coming back to
us with feedback, and that’s absolutely correct. Would it be
useful, potentially, to write to the Minister, picking up that
point from Professor Purt about a policy steer, which he was
seeking at that time?
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[32]
Bethan Jenkins: And to just let us know when they come to a
conclusion.
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[33]
William Powell: And, also, to give us, maybe, some sort of a
time frame as far as they can, regarding the work of the task and
finish group. Okay, agreed.
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[34]
Agenda item 3.3, P-04-532, ‘Improving specialised
neuromuscular services in Wales’. This petition was submitted
by the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign, and was first considered by us
on 4 February 2014. The text of which is before us, as, indeed, is
additional information. Now, we last considered this petition on 10
March 2015, and agreed to write to health boards and the Welsh
Health Specialised Services Committee, asking them to consider the
specific actions called for in the petitioners’ letter, also
to the Minister, asking for an update on the issue, now that an
appointment had been made, and, also, to the cross-party group for
muscular dystrophy and neuromuscular conditions, so that they were
also aware of the latest position.
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[35]
We’ve got responses from the health boards, which are in the
public papers, and, also, a response from the petitioners, and,
again, their comments also are here for us in our public pack
today. A number of possible actions here, in terms of pursuing the
health boards on the issue of how the benefits of additional
neuromuscular consultant time, which has particularly been
emphasised by ABMU, can be realised across Wales. Have colleagues
got any thoughts on that, or other ways that we could advance this
one?
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[36]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae’n rhaid i fi ddatgan
diddordeb fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol.
Mae yna broblemau enbyd o hyd, ynglŷn â diffyg
ffisiotherapi, diffyg access i adnoddau iechyd meddwl, a,
hefyd, diffyg staff cynorthwyol i gleifion yn y gymuned. Ac, felly,
fe fyddwn i yn awyddus iawn i gefnogi’r hyn y mae Muscular
Dystrophy UK yn ei alw amdano, sef ein bod ni’n cael dadl ar
y peth. Achos roedd y Thomas review cwpwl o flynyddoedd yn
ôl, gan Muscular Dystrophy UK, ac mae yna nifer fawr o bethau
sydd heb gael eu gwireddu yn unol â’r adroddiad
hwnnw.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I have to declare an
interest as chair of the cross-party group. There are severe
problems remaining, regarding physiotherapy, a lack of access to
mental health resources, and, also, a lack of staff to help
patients in the community. And, therefore, I would be very keen to
support what Muscular Dystrophy UK is calling for, namely that we
have a debate on the issue. Because there was the Thomas review a
couple of years ago, by Muscular Dystrophy UK, and there are a
number of things that haven’t been realised in accordance
with that report.
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[37]
Nid wyf yn siŵr a ydyn
nhw’n gofyn i ni gau’r ddeiseb, ond maen nhw’n
gofyn am ddadl. Felly, byddwn i eisiau edrych i mewn i’r
potensial o gael dadl ar hyn yn y Senedd, ond nid wyf yn
siŵr eto—os oes mwy o gwestiynau i ni i’w
gofyn i’r byrddau iechyd, a ddylem wneud hynny yn gyntaf, ac
wedyn tynnu popeth at ei gilydd?
|
I’m not sure whether they are asking for
us to close the petition, but they are asking for a debate.
Therefore, I would want to look into the potential of having a
debate on this in the Senedd, but I’m not sure yet—if
there are more questions for us to ask the health boards, should we
do that first, and then bring everything together?
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[38]
William Powell: Thanks for that. Joyce Watson.
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[39]
Joyce Watson: Bethan’s obviously engaged with this,
and probably becoming an expert in some of the areas that need
examining. We have had suggestions back from the petitioner about
some of the areas that might need some further answers. I suggest,
as Bethan alluded to, that the first step is to try and find some
answers and some clarity to the questions that they’ve
raised, after all the information that we’ve had.
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[40]
William Powell: I think a debate, maybe, would be slightly
premature until we’ve got—
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[41]
Joyce Watson: At this stage, yes.
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[42]
William Powell: —that additional layer, to flesh out a
focused report.
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[43]
Joyce Watson: I don’t want to stop a debate, if
that’s where we end up, but at this stage—and I think
Bethan, to be fair, recognised that—that would be my
suggestion.
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[44]
William Powell: So, concretely, that we should pursue some
of the issues raised by the petitioner in their comments. One other
course of action, or maybe just a complementary course of action,
would be to flag this up to the Health and Social Care Committee,
being the specialist committee in the field. Would that make
sense?
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[45]
Bethan Jenkins: We can; I’m just aware of the time for
them. So, I wouldn’t want to close it and just hand it over,
at this stage.
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[46]
William Powell: No, not speculatively, absolutely not.
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[47]
Bethan Jenkins: But, yes; happy to write to them.
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[48]
William Powell: Happy to write to David Rees on that matter
and check what the capacity is.
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[49]
Bethan Jenkins: If they want to take it over, great. But,
quite often, we have them saying, ‘No, we can’t do
it’.
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[50]
William Powell: They’ve had real periods of
pressure.
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[51]
Russell George: I think it’s just making the committee
aware of it, isn’t it?
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[52]
William Powell: I think we’ve got some agreement
there, which is excellent.
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[53]
Item 3.4, P-04-640, ‘Bring Down the Age of Smears to
18’. This petition was submitted by Julie Bradford and was
first considered on 30 June 2015. Five-hundred-and-twenty-five
signatures were collected on the Assembly website and in excess of
100,000 signatures have been collected on a separate petition
website about the same issue. We recall the poignant meeting with
Julie and her daughter Jessica on the occasion that they presented
this petition. We’ve got the text of the petition in front of
us and additional information. We last considered the petition on
30 June 2015 and we agreed a series of actions: to write to the UK
National Screening Committee, asking for details on the recent
public consultation that had informed the Minister’s decision
to put the age up; also to write to the Minister, asking for the
statistical basis upon which the HPV vaccination programme is
expected to decrease the number of cancer patients over the next 10
years; and also to await comments from the petitioner on the
Minister’s response.
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[54]
We’ve received a very substantial response from the UK
national screening programme, and I’ll refer colleagues to
the pack that we have in our public papers, which is very, very
comprehensive indeed. We’ve also received a response from the
petitioner and those comments are available in the pack, but as a
private paper—I think it’s worth emphasising
that—because some of the contents of what the petitioner has
submitted relates to the identities of people, and we can’t
be clear as to their level of consent and awareness of this. So, I
think it’s better to take a precautionary approach in that
respect. We’ve also got late correspondence, and I would
suggest, in the context, it would be sensible to give colleagues a
moment to become familiar with the letter that you’ve got on
your desks, of 5 October. This comes from the Minister.
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[55]
The Minister, there, flags up the additional information
that’s available on the Joint Committee on Vaccination and
Immunisation statement on HPV, and also the minutes of the relevant
sub-group there, with a live link that we will be in a position to
follow up afterwards, because we haven’t got that opportunity
just now.
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[56]
So, this is an emotive and very difficult issue. Clearly, the
amount of specialised material that we’ve received is very
considerable and quite demanding to absorb.
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[57]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydy’r deisebwr wedi gweld y
wybodaeth gan Public Health Wales ynglŷn â’r
ymchwil?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Has the petitioner seen
the information from Public Health Wales regarding the
research?
|
|
[58]
William Powell: Yes.
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[59]
Mr George: Ond mae lot o wybodaeth yna. Nid wyf yn gwybod a
ydy hi wedi cael cymaint o amser â hynny i ymdopi
â’r wybodaeth i gyd.
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Mr George: But there’s a lot of
information there. I don’t know if she’s had a lot of
time to get her head around that.
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[60]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n dilyn y deisebwr ar
Facebook, ac rwyf wedi gweld ei bod hi wedi bod yn derbyn
triniaeth, felly nid wyf yn siŵr faint o amser mae hi
a’i mam wedi’i gael i edrych dros y ddogfen. Felly,
byddwn i’n cynnig, efallai, rhoi bach yn fwy o amser iddyn
nhw edrych ar y ddogfen ac edrych ar y cynnwys. Mae’r cynnwys
yn dangos eu bod nhw ddim am newid yr oedran i lawr. Yn amlwg, mae
hynny’n mynd yn erbyn beth y maen nhw’n gofyn amdano,
ac efallai y byddai’n dda clywed oddi wrthyn nhw unwaith eto
pam maen nhw’n dal i gredu bod y ddeiseb yn iawn.
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Bethan Jenkins: I’m following the
petitioner on Facebook, and I’ve seen that she has been
receiving treatment, so I’m not sure how much time she and
her mother have had to look over the document. So, I would propose,
perhaps, that they should have a little bit more time to consider
the document and look at the content. The content shows that they
don’t want to bring the age down. Clearly, that goes against
what they’re asking for, so perhaps it would be good to hear
from them once again why they still believe that the petition is
right.
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[61]
Mr George: Wrth gwrs, nid yw’r deisebwr wedi gweld y
llythyr oddi wrth y Gweinidog eto.
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Mr George: Of course, the petitioner
hasn’t seen the letter from the Minister yet.
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[62]
Bethan Jenkins:
So, dylwn ni ddanfon y llythyr atyn
nhw hefyd.
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Bethan Jenkins: So, perhaps we could
send that letter to her.
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[63]
William Powell:
Ie. Cytunaf.
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William Powell: Yes, I agree.
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[64]
I think that would be a really good idea, because we’ve also
got the opportunity then to follow up the links, as Steve has
indicated. Given the sheer body of information, I think it’s
important for us on all sides. If you’ve been pursuing the
fact that Jessica’s at a particular phase of her treatment,
then clearly she has other priorities just at the moment. So, I
think, probably, that makes sense all round.
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[65]
Joyce Watson: I agree.
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[66]
William Powell: I sense we’re agreed on that. Good;
thank you very much indeed.
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[67]
Agenda item 3.5, P-04-539, ‘Save Cardiff Coal
Exchange’: this petition was submitted by Jon Avent and was
first considered by us on 11 March 2014. It had the support of 389
signatures; an associated petition hosted on another website
collected 2,680 signatures. We’ve got the text in front of us
and, indeed, some additional information. We last considered this,
as I said, on 14 July 2015. At that meeting, we discussed our
recent visit to the Coal Exchange and agreed to ask the Minister
for her views on Mr Avent’s comments and whether, in fact,
there is any further progress to report. The Minister has now
responded, and we’ve also received, as had been promised, a
copy of the feasibility study prepared by Capita in association
with Government officials in the economy, science and transport
department and also in Cadw. The ministerial letters and the
feasibility study are in the public papers today.
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[68]
Separately, the Save the Coal Exchange group has sent us, as a
committee, an extract from a structural survey of the hall and the
foyer of the exchange that had been prepared by the company Mann
Williams, which is based very close by. The survey was commissioned
by Save the Coal Exchange; this is also, as colleagues will have
seen, in the public papers. At the time of finalising the papers,
however, we had not heard from Mr Jon Avent himself, as lead
petitioner. I just want to check that that remains the case. So,
we’ve still not heard from Mr Avent, and I think that, in
order to pursue this as I’m sure we would wish, we need to
have his take on these important documents that have reached us.
So, I suggest that we come back to that when we’ve got
feedback from Mr Avent. There’s a substantial amount of
material there again, from, particularly, the Capita report, which
I think would repay further study, as indeed would the interesting
extract from the Mann Williams structural study, which we’ve
got.
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[69]
Bethan Jenkins: Can I just ask a question?
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[70]
William Powell: Sure, go ahead.
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[71]
Bethan Jenkins: Sorry if it’s out of order, but I
can’t see from the Minister’s—. We’ve got a
copy of the Capita report, but are they saying that they’re
going to be utilising it in any way, or is this just a copy for us
to see—?
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[72]
Mr George: There are two letters from the Minister;
there’s one that is just a very short covering letter at the
beginning.
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[73]
William Powell: Yes, just a three-liner.
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[74]
Mr George: Right at the end—I think it’s on page
132—there’s a slightly longer letter.
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[75]
William Powell: Okay. Does that set into context where this
fits with the planned works and stuff?
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[76]
Mr George: It says:
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[77]
‘Following further consideration of the initial feasibility
work, I hope to write to you again on suggested next
steps.’
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[78]
Bethan Jenkins: That’s not very—. I suppose we
could—. Well, let’s wait for the petitioner, and then
we can write back, saying, ‘You hoped to come back to us;
perhaps you could be clearer as to what you’re going to do
now with the study by Capita’.
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[79]
William Powell: In the meantime, the issue of ownership and
responsibility is still a fairly obscure one, isn’t it, I
think, from our studies, following the insolvency of the previous
owners. So, that’s something that, potentially, it would also
be useful for us to take up with the Minister, because, at the end
of the day, nothing is going to happen until that is bottomed out
as well. Okay. Good. That’s a sensible way forward and,
hopefully, we’ll hear shortly from Mr Avent with his
perspective.
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09:30
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[80]
Agenda item 3.6, P-04-544, ‘Ban the Shooting of Greenland
White-fronted Geese’: this petition was submitted by Aaron
Davies and was first considered on 29 April 2014, having collected
240 signatures. We’ve got substantial or detailed explanation
there as to the concerns that motivate the petition and some
additional information. We last considered this petition on 12 May
2015, and we agreed to pass Professor Fox’s letter on to the
Minister for Natural Resources and to seek his views on the
content. As you recall, this initially was received under the
period of office of the former Minister for Natural Resources and
Food, Alun Davies, so we were keen to establish whether or not
there was a difference of emphasis here and also to ask the
Minister why the Welsh Government appears to have set its face
against statutory protection when other states have done this and,
finally, to ask him to reconsider the Welsh Government’s
position on this matter.
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[81]
The Minister has now responded. As you can see, he appears to
remain wedded to the view that that policy is appropriate at this
time, based on the statistics available to him, but he has agreed
to keep the position under review and to consider further the
statutory prohibition of shooting if new evidence should become
available. At the time that the papers were assembled, we
hadn’t heard from Mr Aaron Davies. So, obviously, we’ll
be looking to hear from him. Russell, you’ve indicated.
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[82]
Russell George: Yes. Thank you, Chair. I think this is one
of the petitions we receive where it’s difficult to see how
we can progress it any further at the moment because the petitioner
has submitted this petition to us, we’ve contacted the
Minister, and the Minister’s been very clear in his decision.
So, I can’t see how we can progress this any further, and the
Minister has said he’s discussed it with his statutory
advisers, Natural Resources Wales. So, my feeling would be that we
should close this petition, but, if the petitioner does contact us
back within a reasonable time then, of course, we can consider what
the petitioner says. But, if that’s not the case, I just
think we should agree to close the petition.
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[83]
William Powell: Yes. I tend to agree that it seems to have
run its course, but, for consistency, I think we’ve probably
got to give the petitioner that opportunity. Joyce, you’ve
indicated.
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[84]
Joyce Watson: I have, and I want to declare an interest in
being—which are all on record—a member of various
organisations that would be involved in trying to promote this ban
on the shooting of the Greenland white-fronted geese. I think that
we need at least to give the petitioner, as we’ve given every
other petitioner, the right to respond before we consider closing
it. That’s my suggestion.
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[85]
William Powell: Yes. Are we all content with that
approach?
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[86]
Bethan Jenkins: Yes.
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[87]
William Powell: Yes. Okay. Good. Moving now to agenda item
3.7, P-04-632, ‘Mynyddoedd Pawb’: this petition was
submitted by Mynyddoedd Pawb, and was first considered on 12 May
2015. It has the support of 1,026 signatures. We recall the three
main asks of the petitioners with regard to their wish to see a
climate of greater respect and interest in the Welsh language and a
greater sense of identity fostered among local communities and also
to see that bound into the way in which local heritage is
interpreted and how that is also built in for educational and
economic benefit. We’ve also got some substantial additional
information that they’ve supplied to us. We last considered
this on 12 May this year, and we agreed a series of actions: to
write to Meri Huws, the Welsh Language Commissioner, seeking her
views on the petition, as well as to Visit Wales and the Wales
Tourism Alliance—given the petitioners’ aim of using
this issue as a means of promoting outdoor tourism
ventures—the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical
Monuments of Wales and, finally, the Deputy Minister, seeking his
views on the petitioners further comments, alongside seeking advice
from the Welsh Government in terms of its role, and specifically
whether they could take on a more direct role in the process,
possibly via the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill on its
introduction. We’ve got responses now from the Deputy
Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Ken Skates, from the Welsh
Language Commissioner, and, indeed, a very interesting response
from the chair of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and
Historical Monuments of Wales. These responses are all available to
us. We still haven’t heard, disappointingly, from either
Visit Wales or the Wales Tourism Alliance. I’m conscious that
this may have coincided with busy periods for some of their key
members, in terms of the summer period. But, nevertheless, I think
we should chase in that case. I’d welcome your thoughts and
observations on some of the feedback we’ve had.
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[88]
Mr George: Just before we start, the petitioners have asked
me to point out that, in the translation of their paper, of their
responses—I think it’s on page 155 of your
pack—almost at the very bottom, it says
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[89]
‘and celebrate this national heritage by means of the Welsh
names of our landscape.’
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[90]
They say that, from the original paper that they submitted in
Welsh, it should really have been ‘our national
heritage’ rather than ‘this national
heritage’.
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[91]
William Powell: Absolutely. That’s down for the
record. Thank you very much for that, Steve. Bethan.
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[92]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n hapus i gynnig ein bod
ni’n trosglwyddo’r ohebiaeth rydym ni wedi’i
chael i’r Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth
Leol, ac i ofyn i’r clerciaid anfon hynny at yr Aelodau
Cynulliad sydd ar y pwyllgor, ac efallai i bob Aelod Cynulliad,
oherwydd bydd trafodaeth Cyfnod 1 y Bil yn digwydd cyn ein hanner
tymor ni ac, felly, rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig bod
llefaryddion y pleidiau yn ymwybodol o’r hyn sydd yn y
ddeiseb. Rwy’n credu y byddan nhw’n weddol hapus gyda
beth sy’n cael ei gynnig, ond fyddwn i ddim eisiau siarad yn
rhy glou am hynny.
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Bethan
Jenkins: I’m happy to propose that we pass on the
correspondence that we’ve had to the Communities, Equality
and Local Government Committee, and to ask the clerks to send that
correspondence to the Assembly Members on that committee, and also
perhaps to every Assembly Member, because the Stage 1 discussion of
the Bill will take place before our half term and, so, I think
it’s important that party spokespersons are aware of
what’s in the petition. I think that they would be quite
content with what’s being proposed, but I wouldn’t want
to speak too soon on that matter.
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[93]
Mae hwn yn bwynt bach iawn, ond maen
nhw’n gofyn a fyddai Gweinidogion eraill yn gallu gwneud sylw
am y ddeiseb. Maen nhw’n sôn am weinidogaethau addysg a
chyfoeth naturiol. Mae Ken Skates yn mynd i mewn i’r
cwricwlwm Cymreig, ond nid yw e really yn trafod y pynciau
hynny’n amlwg iawn yn y llythyr. Felly, dylem ofyn i Ken
Skates yn benodol a yw e wedi trafod â’r Gweinidog
addysg ac â’r Gweinidog amgylchedd botensial y ddeiseb
yma a’r syniadau sy’n dod o’r ddeiseb
yma.
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This is a very
small point, but they ask whether other Ministers could comment on
the petition. They refer to the education and the natural resources
Ministers. Ken Skates does touch upon the cwricwlwm Cymreig, but he
doesn’t really discuss those subjects in a very distinct way
in the letter. Therefore, we should ask Ken Skates specifically
whether he has discussed with the education Minister and the
environment Minister the potential of this petition and the ideas
that stem from it.
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[94]
Rwy’n cytuno hefyd fod angen i
ni ofyn i Cadw, ac i bwyso ar Groeso Cymru a Chynghrair Twristiaeth
Cymru, am eu hatebion nhw. Yn y pwyllgor, fe wnes i eistedd i mewn
ar y dystiolaeth, ac roedd y dystiolaeth yn weddol gryf fod angen i
rywbeth ddigwydd yn y maes yma, a beth sy’n weithredol bosib
rwy’n credu dylai’r drafodaeth yng nghyd-destun y Bil
ddod i’r amlwg wrth i gyfnodau’r Bil ddatblygu. Felly,
rwy’n credu y dylai’r deisebwyr fod yn ymwybodol bod
angen lobïo ar y lefel hynny hefyd, nid jest i’r
Pwyllgor Deisebau.
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I also agree that
we need to ask Cadw, and put pressure on Visit Wales and the Wales
Tourism Alliance, for their responses. In the committee, I sat in
on the evidence, and it was quite strong evidence about the need to
do something in this field, and what is practically possible I
believe the discussion in the context of the Bill will make
apparent as the Bill progresses. So, I think that the petitioners
should be aware that there is a need to lobby on that level also,
and not just with the Petitions Committee.
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[95]
William Powell: Yes, I think it’s very timely indeed,
really, that we’ve got this all coming together, and it was
very useful to see such substantial responses as we’ve had,
particularly, from the commissioner and with regard to the royal
commission on ancient and historical monuments, because
that’s quite substantial and maybe will help to foster some
amendments or some more detailed thinking at this stage of the
Bill. Joyce.
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[96]
Joyce Watson: I’ve got nothing to add.
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[97]
William Powell: Okay. Would it be useful for us, given the
nature of the petition, to also draw it to the attention of the
First Minister, given his overarching responsibility for Welsh
language matters? We didn’t do that previously.
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[98]
Bethan Jenkins: What I suggested was that we ask Ken if
he’d engaged, I suppose. I don’t know—you could
write to the First Minister as well. I thought we could write to
him and say, ‘Have you engaged with the First Minister, with
the education Minister and the environment Minister—
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[99]
William Powell: Okay, yes, that would be more of a
catch-all, to be fair.
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[100]
Bethan Jenkins: —on all of these things?’, as a
sort of cross-portfolio discussion, and start with that, and, if we
don’t believe that we capture all of the arguments, we can
write separately to the Minister. I’m just trying
to—not save time, but perhaps—
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[101]
William Powell: That’s a good way forward and it also
ties in with what has been requested by the petitioner, so it makes
good sense. Excellent. Okay, so that concludes this section of the
agenda.
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09:39
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Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i
Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o
weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog
17.42(ix).
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that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
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Cynigiwyd y
cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[102]
William Powell: I propose a motion under Standing Order
17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the
following item of business, which is with regard to the ongoing
review of the National Assembly for Wales petitions system. I see
no objection, so we move into private session.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:40.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:40.
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